Cathay or Dragonair?
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Come on Rod, this is getting ridiculous... Command failure rate 25-75%? Rent 30-60 minutes from Central 2-4000 US for a tiny flat?
Fighting the market ( especially with these silly lies) is like building a sand castle against the tide, childish and pointless.
Instead of moaning and complaining 24/7, wearing your stupid red lanyards (preferably at outports) or chasing the unicorn G day worker, why don't you take some real action, something that actually does hurt the company,something that needs real guts and not only cheap talk？
I know you guys think I am the enemy, I approve of everything, I like how we get treated. This is nonsense. But it just doesn't matter if you fly the aircraft from A to B in a good or bad mood, only if we STOP flying from A to B the company would listen.
Fighting the market ( especially with these silly lies) is like building a sand castle against the tide, childish and pointless.
Instead of moaning and complaining 24/7, wearing your stupid red lanyards (preferably at outports) or chasing the unicorn G day worker, why don't you take some real action, something that actually does hurt the company,something that needs real guts and not only cheap talk？
I know you guys think I am the enemy, I approve of everything, I like how we get treated. This is nonsense. But it just doesn't matter if you fly the aircraft from A to B in a good or bad mood, only if we STOP flying from A to B the company would listen.
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I know there's a rant about pollution every other day on this forum, but for the sake of the present argument, and for what it's worth, here's another piece we can all pretend we never read when we go back home to our kids after our next duty:
Asian Air is Killing Us - Asia Sentinel | Asia Sentinel
Now let's play: "how many air purifiers can I buy with my profit share".
I'll help you. The answer is none.
Asian Air is Killing Us - Asia Sentinel | Asia Sentinel
Now let's play: "how many air purifiers can I buy with my profit share".
I'll help you. The answer is none.
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What Rod and Kirk have said is pretty much spot on.
Given a choice I would probably pick CX.
But given the present climate I would look only toward this as a stepping stone for somewhere else--kind of like a regional plus. Or a hobby.
I wouldn't have said that 10 years ago but the present trajectory takes the place away from being a career choice. Unless you forsee some form of imminent epiphany by the folks that run the place, we will quickly become stratified into a bunch of old folks riding it out toward retirement and a bunch of young folks on their way up who will bolt when they become marketable. The company has demonstrated little effort in investing in its most precious commodity--its people---as of late (unless words on paper count--and even a lot of those are neither true nor good). They've managed to take what is one of the best deals and wonderful vocations on the planet and piss everyone off. No small accomplishment. And over trivial control-freak oriented things.
In many flying organizations the real rubber meet the road types are those of upper mid level experience in their mid years. The point at which ones skills are sharpest, the physical capability is at its peak (without the maintenance issues which unquestionably come with age), and they have enough experience (although not as much as the old heads) to competently and safely fly. Personal maintenance cost is low, performance is high, life issues are low. We won't have these folks for long if we keep doing what we are doing.
The airline market is largely seniority driven and this can result in a trap if one joins the ship too late. There are plenty of other opportunities (and for the forseeable future) out there which in the long run will give a more better lifestyle. In the end, this is what counts. Time is life's most precious resource. As one gets older family becomes more and more important (as it should be--probably from the start). Present day rostering is in shambles, and the workable solutions have been completely ignored. In fact problems have been exacerbated out of some petty misguided tirade which actually makes crew availability and options much less efficient and worse. It's not a matter of not having solutions, but of not wanting to invoke them--a stubborn refusal to acknowledge win-win solutions--with the incomprehensible belief that somehow making things better detracts from one's power and authority (when exactly the reverse is true). Just the way it is and you're not going to change it. MAYBE someday it will change, but it's not that way now.
CX has hired some of the best people in the business in its selection process during its history. And it's uncanny how strong (and desirable) individual character traits were chosen during this process. Highly qualified military pilots from all forces, experienced regional pilots, experienced bush pilots, brought quality folks up through its ranks. NONE of these folks are slackers; most all have demonstrated excellence in dedication, work and aviation prior to joining--and have continued this through most of their career. Some very impressive resumes and performance. Yet somehow the place has managed to completely demoralize many of these people. And in some cases not simply demoralize them but driven and polarized them into doing ONLY what is required and absolutely nothing more--when this group could be otherwise motivated to do some phenomenally productive and great things (and had been in previous organizations). Fear might work as a motivator in a shooting war, or in the short term, but in the long term breeds only contempt. The survey results speak for themselves; when confidence levels are in the single digits there's SOMETHING very, very wrong. These aren't a bunch of disgruntled workers bitching and moaning; for the most part they are dedicated professionals interested in making things better. And giving an honest assessment. It comes down to leadership, confidence, and trust which been found wanting.
So if you believe this is the path for you, give it a try--but I wouldn't put down roots or place yourself in the position of having self-generated handcuffs.
Given a choice I would probably pick CX.
But given the present climate I would look only toward this as a stepping stone for somewhere else--kind of like a regional plus. Or a hobby.
I wouldn't have said that 10 years ago but the present trajectory takes the place away from being a career choice. Unless you forsee some form of imminent epiphany by the folks that run the place, we will quickly become stratified into a bunch of old folks riding it out toward retirement and a bunch of young folks on their way up who will bolt when they become marketable. The company has demonstrated little effort in investing in its most precious commodity--its people---as of late (unless words on paper count--and even a lot of those are neither true nor good). They've managed to take what is one of the best deals and wonderful vocations on the planet and piss everyone off. No small accomplishment. And over trivial control-freak oriented things.
In many flying organizations the real rubber meet the road types are those of upper mid level experience in their mid years. The point at which ones skills are sharpest, the physical capability is at its peak (without the maintenance issues which unquestionably come with age), and they have enough experience (although not as much as the old heads) to competently and safely fly. Personal maintenance cost is low, performance is high, life issues are low. We won't have these folks for long if we keep doing what we are doing.
The airline market is largely seniority driven and this can result in a trap if one joins the ship too late. There are plenty of other opportunities (and for the forseeable future) out there which in the long run will give a more better lifestyle. In the end, this is what counts. Time is life's most precious resource. As one gets older family becomes more and more important (as it should be--probably from the start). Present day rostering is in shambles, and the workable solutions have been completely ignored. In fact problems have been exacerbated out of some petty misguided tirade which actually makes crew availability and options much less efficient and worse. It's not a matter of not having solutions, but of not wanting to invoke them--a stubborn refusal to acknowledge win-win solutions--with the incomprehensible belief that somehow making things better detracts from one's power and authority (when exactly the reverse is true). Just the way it is and you're not going to change it. MAYBE someday it will change, but it's not that way now.
CX has hired some of the best people in the business in its selection process during its history. And it's uncanny how strong (and desirable) individual character traits were chosen during this process. Highly qualified military pilots from all forces, experienced regional pilots, experienced bush pilots, brought quality folks up through its ranks. NONE of these folks are slackers; most all have demonstrated excellence in dedication, work and aviation prior to joining--and have continued this through most of their career. Some very impressive resumes and performance. Yet somehow the place has managed to completely demoralize many of these people. And in some cases not simply demoralize them but driven and polarized them into doing ONLY what is required and absolutely nothing more--when this group could be otherwise motivated to do some phenomenally productive and great things (and had been in previous organizations). Fear might work as a motivator in a shooting war, or in the short term, but in the long term breeds only contempt. The survey results speak for themselves; when confidence levels are in the single digits there's SOMETHING very, very wrong. These aren't a bunch of disgruntled workers bitching and moaning; for the most part they are dedicated professionals interested in making things better. And giving an honest assessment. It comes down to leadership, confidence, and trust which been found wanting.
So if you believe this is the path for you, give it a try--but I wouldn't put down roots or place yourself in the position of having self-generated handcuffs.
Last edited by Shep69; 5th Apr 2015 at 14:23.
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Good post as usual Shep.
May I just add, on the subject of future bases, that I very much doubt that anyone who joined on the HKPA (rather than full housing) will ever see a base, quite aside from the hundreds of people ahead on the seniority list wanting one. Bases lose the company a bit of crew flexibility, but more importantly they lose them control, and they hate that. Not to mention all those pesky labour laws that have to actually be followed.
There is only one good reason bases even exist, and that is the airline saves massively on housing costs, which represent a very substantial chunk of the crew budget. For those who have joined in the last 6 years or so, there is absolutely no incentive for them to ever send you on a base, the HKPA being a pittance compared to "proper" housing.
Even if basings change, that won't be you, for ages.
There is only one good reason bases even exist, and that is the airline saves massively on housing costs, which represent a very substantial chunk of the crew budget. For those who have joined in the last 6 years or so, there is absolutely no incentive for them to ever send you on a base, the HKPA being a pittance compared to "proper" housing.
Quite right main, but judging by the number of Reserve and what used to be A-Day callouts on the bases, I think the bases actually add to their flexibility, particularly now. What HKG crew in their right mind answer the flashing message lights in the hotel rooms these days?
And they will never openly say 'no more bases', because they are a great carrot to dangle in front of the starry-eyed wannabes.
But as the expensive expats get pissed off and leave (which to me seems a result of deliberate company policy), the day will come when there will be a critical mass of cheap ex-cadet and low time 'instant jet transport pilots' on HKPA. The cheap salaries, minimal housing allowance and no requirement to conform with First World labor law will outweigh the benefits of experienced, competent crew in both HKG and available at the outports.
I'll say it again. It almost seems as if they are deliberately trying to piss us off.
And they will never openly say 'no more bases', because they are a great carrot to dangle in front of the starry-eyed wannabes.
But as the expensive expats get pissed off and leave (which to me seems a result of deliberate company policy), the day will come when there will be a critical mass of cheap ex-cadet and low time 'instant jet transport pilots' on HKPA. The cheap salaries, minimal housing allowance and no requirement to conform with First World labor law will outweigh the benefits of experienced, competent crew in both HKG and available at the outports.
I'll say it again. It almost seems as if they are deliberately trying to piss us off.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 5th Apr 2015 at 23:28.
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So basically what shep69 is saying is use cathay the way they use you. Get your time and experience and leave before its too late 
.
If you join at an older age in your early to mid 30's then I do believe its the wrong choice. If you're a tweeny barely out of school. Use it for what it is and don't hang around for the carrots being dangled.
. If you join at an older age in your early to mid 30's then I do believe its the wrong choice. If you're a tweeny barely out of school. Use it for what it is and don't hang around for the carrots being dangled.
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Sam Ting Wong
You've rubbished Rod without any evidence whatsoever to back it up.
For every 10 crew that join, how many get into the left seat? If the company decide that 9 of them won't be given a command upgrade, so 1 in 10 gets a command course, passes it, and is upgraded to captain that's not actually a 100% pass rate.
Every other legacy carrier recruited from the same pool of pilots as CX, every other legacy carrier has a better than 95% upgrade rate and, with rare exceptions, everyone does command course.
CX can do whatever they want with their employees careers, it's their train set. You think Rod's numbers are far off the mark? Prove it
You've rubbished Rod without any evidence whatsoever to back it up.
For every 10 crew that join, how many get into the left seat? If the company decide that 9 of them won't be given a command upgrade, so 1 in 10 gets a command course, passes it, and is upgraded to captain that's not actually a 100% pass rate.
Every other legacy carrier recruited from the same pool of pilots as CX, every other legacy carrier has a better than 95% upgrade rate and, with rare exceptions, everyone does command course.
CX can do whatever they want with their employees careers, it's their train set. You think Rod's numbers are far off the mark? Prove it
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It is impossible to prove something that doesn't exist ( for instance you cannot prove a god does NOT exist)
That is why traditionally the one who claims something has to prove it.
So, how about you guys prove the failure rate for command is 20-75 % ?
And for the record : I never said the checking system in Cathay is reasonable, nor that the housing for new joiners is attractive, or that management treats us well etc etc. NEVER. You don't get it!
All I say is that you guys are not focusing on the enemy, you don't chose your battles right, and you don't really fight in the first place. Just grumpy cheap talk in cruise or in the bar won't do it, that is all I am saying. What is the outcome of CC so far? NOTHING. Quite the opposite : no pay rise this year, no 5 years LoL, and as a cherry on the the top given notice of the FTLS. Nice. Applause.
And for the record: I am wearing your clown lanyards, I am not answering the phone, I am not working on a gday, BUT AS THE REST OF YOU I NEVER HAVE!!
CC is shooting in the own foot, I said it from day one, and you KNOW IT. The are no g-day workers, there is no crew shortage, there is no lack of training capacity, Americans are not leaving, Cathay is not " a stepping stone", etc etc , it is all the same BS talk I hear since decades!!
Call me old-fashioned, but if I start a fight I intend to WIN IT.
You rather spend time to "fight" for expat conditions for all ( pointless and unsustainable), telling wanna-be new joiners ferry tales or horror stories, or you explain SO's how inferior their package is ( it is not).
Remember the ingenious strategy of the AOA to ban new-joiners from union membership? It is always the same moronic idea, but there will NEVER be a shortage of applicants, there are THOUSANDS of them eagerly waiting to join, for the simple reason that they come from places that are even worse. What is so hard to understand here? Change your patronising, arrogant and USELESS position and face reality.
Either fight for real or chose your battles and negotiate.
PS Captain Dart, I never said there is no war, I said we should only start one if we can win it.
That is why traditionally the one who claims something has to prove it.
So, how about you guys prove the failure rate for command is 20-75 % ?
And for the record : I never said the checking system in Cathay is reasonable, nor that the housing for new joiners is attractive, or that management treats us well etc etc. NEVER. You don't get it!
All I say is that you guys are not focusing on the enemy, you don't chose your battles right, and you don't really fight in the first place. Just grumpy cheap talk in cruise or in the bar won't do it, that is all I am saying. What is the outcome of CC so far? NOTHING. Quite the opposite : no pay rise this year, no 5 years LoL, and as a cherry on the the top given notice of the FTLS. Nice. Applause.
And for the record: I am wearing your clown lanyards, I am not answering the phone, I am not working on a gday, BUT AS THE REST OF YOU I NEVER HAVE!!
CC is shooting in the own foot, I said it from day one, and you KNOW IT. The are no g-day workers, there is no crew shortage, there is no lack of training capacity, Americans are not leaving, Cathay is not " a stepping stone", etc etc , it is all the same BS talk I hear since decades!!
Call me old-fashioned, but if I start a fight I intend to WIN IT.
You rather spend time to "fight" for expat conditions for all ( pointless and unsustainable), telling wanna-be new joiners ferry tales or horror stories, or you explain SO's how inferior their package is ( it is not).
Remember the ingenious strategy of the AOA to ban new-joiners from union membership? It is always the same moronic idea, but there will NEVER be a shortage of applicants, there are THOUSANDS of them eagerly waiting to join, for the simple reason that they come from places that are even worse. What is so hard to understand here? Change your patronising, arrogant and USELESS position and face reality.
Either fight for real or chose your battles and negotiate.
PS Captain Dart, I never said there is no war, I said we should only start one if we can win it.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 6th Apr 2015 at 01:42.
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I don't work for either airline. But if both contracts were in front of me, I would take Dragonair. After 3 years at Dragonair, with Airbus time, you will have plenty of options. You will either love Hk after 3 years or hate it, stay at Dragonair, most likely a command after 8 years. I think Cathay is now in the region of 14 years to command.CX after 3 years, you will still be a S/o.
I work on the other side of the airport on the corporate side, applications are coming in thick and fast from CX and KA pilots, a lot of guys want out.
I work on the other side of the airport on the corporate side, applications are coming in thick and fast from CX and KA pilots, a lot of guys want out.
Last edited by Flying Mechanic; 6th Apr 2015 at 04:46. Reason: Spelling/ comprehension
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Shep..good one, as always spot on.mechanic..very true..KA would be my choice since the bus is currency outside HK, unless you want the dross of Korea,the pit or Gallipoli.fast track conversions to minibus and ACJ exec jobs are also on radar..2 going now on your side I believe?
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KA
As a 30 something with KA I can say that I am happy here after missing out with CX.
The job is what you make of it.. We fly almost exclusively in china as a line pilot and that carries it own stressors like constant delays and operating at least 10,000ft below optimum for a loud flight on the many integrated 3 sectors days.
If you can be at peace with that, then you might enjoy flying with the good people at KA.
There is always downward pressure on wages (published on the website) Hong Kong is stupidly expensive but you can have a lot of fun here if you don't have kids as schools are pricey enough to make you want to cry all the way back to Jetstar. We choose to live further out for more space but you can live closer to the action if space is not important.
If you have the experience then upgrade time at KA is trending towards 18 months but be warned there is little training and the assessment is uncompromising regardless of the need for commanders.
The intake process with KA is slow vs CX so if you're under 25 I would take the first offer otherwise I'd wait for KA.
Good luck with getting an offer.
The job is what you make of it.. We fly almost exclusively in china as a line pilot and that carries it own stressors like constant delays and operating at least 10,000ft below optimum for a loud flight on the many integrated 3 sectors days.
If you can be at peace with that, then you might enjoy flying with the good people at KA.
There is always downward pressure on wages (published on the website) Hong Kong is stupidly expensive but you can have a lot of fun here if you don't have kids as schools are pricey enough to make you want to cry all the way back to Jetstar. We choose to live further out for more space but you can live closer to the action if space is not important.
If you have the experience then upgrade time at KA is trending towards 18 months but be warned there is little training and the assessment is uncompromising regardless of the need for commanders.
The intake process with KA is slow vs CX so if you're under 25 I would take the first offer otherwise I'd wait for KA.
Good luck with getting an offer.
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May I just add, on the subject of future bases, that I very much doubt that anyone who joined on the HKPA (rather than full housing) will ever see a base, quite aside from the hundreds of people ahead on the seniority list wanting one.