3rd runway or new airport
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3rd runway or new airport
On the subject of the new runway and slots filling up at CLK.... why are we pushing planes into a tighter airspace where the present airport is located?
Build a new airport in a different location, South Side? Away from the terrain and with the forethought that if we need to expand the airport we can build runways to the south with no restrictions?
Eventually this is going to happen in HK. We can't just cram more planes into a tighter airspace. Build an island airport like what Japan does. 10-15 nm out to sea south of Stanley, Repulse Bay, Lamma Island... somewhere away from the terrain (if you can).
How many extra slots are going to available with a third runway in it's present position? Not many.....
Build a new airport in a different location, South Side? Away from the terrain and with the forethought that if we need to expand the airport we can build runways to the south with no restrictions?
Eventually this is going to happen in HK. We can't just cram more planes into a tighter airspace. Build an island airport like what Japan does. 10-15 nm out to sea south of Stanley, Repulse Bay, Lamma Island... somewhere away from the terrain (if you can).
How many extra slots are going to available with a third runway in it's present position? Not many.....
The problem is the 'glass wall' and Bizarro World's airspace north of HKIA.
Until the PLAAF relent to fly their MiG copies elsewhere, and allow Western style ATC procedures and airspace design, laying more concrete will not be much use.
Until the PLAAF relent to fly their MiG copies elsewhere, and allow Western style ATC procedures and airspace design, laying more concrete will not be much use.
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Relax:
Captain Dart,
You seem to be forever implying that China does not have the right to use its airspace as the Chinese military sees fit. It's their call and considering the physical encirclement of China by others then China has every right to allocate their airspace as they see fit.
To make life easier for yourself why don't you just put on more fuel and relax. It's not that hard.
O.P.
You seem to be forever implying that China does not have the right to use its airspace as the Chinese military sees fit. It's their call and considering the physical encirclement of China by others then China has every right to allocate their airspace as they see fit.
To make life easier for yourself why don't you just put on more fuel and relax. It's not that hard.
O.P.
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Ocean Person
Really, encirclement. That's why the airspace is like the way it is? It is the way it is because of the late development of China's economy. The military owned the airspace because there was no civil traffic. They owned it by default. Using your logic they better start making all the shipping go down narrow lanes and let the navy use the rest of it. They don't do that because China has for a very long time recognised the value of trade by sea. At some point someone with some power in the giant machine that is the Chinese government will realise that the airspace will need to be fixed. But it will be a slow and cumbersome process, so don't hold your breath.
Really, encirclement. That's why the airspace is like the way it is? It is the way it is because of the late development of China's economy. The military owned the airspace because there was no civil traffic. They owned it by default. Using your logic they better start making all the shipping go down narrow lanes and let the navy use the rest of it. They don't do that because China has for a very long time recognised the value of trade by sea. At some point someone with some power in the giant machine that is the Chinese government will realise that the airspace will need to be fixed. But it will be a slow and cumbersome process, so don't hold your breath.
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Physical Encirclement?
Ocean Person,
If you look at a map, you'll notice all countries are "encircled". The people on the other side of the line are your neighbours.
As for the airspace over China, doesn't it belong to the people of China? Why do they need to wait for hours on an aircraft waiting to depart, when the PLC isn't even flying? Whose problem is it when the resource is being misused so badly?
If you look at a map, you'll notice all countries are "encircled". The people on the other side of the line are your neighbours.
As for the airspace over China, doesn't it belong to the people of China? Why do they need to wait for hours on an aircraft waiting to depart, when the PLC isn't even flying? Whose problem is it when the resource is being misused so badly?
It's all ok- civilian problem solved in Mainland airspace.
They just moved all the PLA shenanigans to Hong Kong FIR!
Effectively closed the southern airspace above 20 grand today.
Not content with fcuking up their own airspace they are now heading South.
Knew there was a reason for the most useless piece of ATC airspace on the planet- Sanya FIR.
Please give us your appraisal Ocean Person.
They just moved all the PLA shenanigans to Hong Kong FIR!
Effectively closed the southern airspace above 20 grand today.
Not content with fcuking up their own airspace they are now heading South.
Knew there was a reason for the most useless piece of ATC airspace on the planet- Sanya FIR.
Please give us your appraisal Ocean Person.
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Dan Winterland is right move Biz Jets and LCC's to Macau and Zuhai once the bridge is done.
This can be done with "pricing signals" reflecting the amount of time a Global Express or G IV takes on the runway - which is longer than a 744 due wake turbulence category. After all, in Europe, O'Leary Air and Stelios Jet go to secondary airports like Frankfurt Hahn and Rome Caimpino.
If you are an F/O or S/O with a HKG carrier you need that 3rd RWY inside the HKG SAR if you want your command! Anything outside the SAR is not covered by HKG air services agreements and won't be available to HKG airlines.
WRT to airspace - maybe we are looking at it back to front. the PRD from ZGGG to HKG and around seems to have virtually no military airspace so for better co-ordination of PRD airports maybe HKCAD can subcontract approach and area control to ZGGG FIR and just have tower run by HKCAD (similar to the arrangement VMMC has now). Then maybe we could cross SIERA at 4000' on left base for 07L? Like to keep feet rather than metres somehow tho.....
Just sayn'
This can be done with "pricing signals" reflecting the amount of time a Global Express or G IV takes on the runway - which is longer than a 744 due wake turbulence category. After all, in Europe, O'Leary Air and Stelios Jet go to secondary airports like Frankfurt Hahn and Rome Caimpino.
If you are an F/O or S/O with a HKG carrier you need that 3rd RWY inside the HKG SAR if you want your command! Anything outside the SAR is not covered by HKG air services agreements and won't be available to HKG airlines.
WRT to airspace - maybe we are looking at it back to front. the PRD from ZGGG to HKG and around seems to have virtually no military airspace so for better co-ordination of PRD airports maybe HKCAD can subcontract approach and area control to ZGGG FIR and just have tower run by HKCAD (similar to the arrangement VMMC has now). Then maybe we could cross SIERA at 4000' on left base for 07L? Like to keep feet rather than metres somehow tho.....
Just sayn'
Last edited by Master Caution; 26th Aug 2013 at 09:52.
Dream on. HKIA opened in 1998. It is now 2013 and nothing has changed. Especially with summer convective weather, the ridiculous airspace restrictions and increasing traffic are now affecting Hong Kong's viability as a hub. And who knows what damage the bizarre Chinese ATC delays are having on their own economy? But at least Mainland Chinese can sleep soundly in their beds knowing that the valiant PLAAF is protecting them from 'encirclement'.
Perhaps the new 'Hong Konger' in charge of CX may be able to change it all...
Perhaps the new 'Hong Konger' in charge of CX may be able to change it all...
Last edited by Captain Dart; 26th Aug 2013 at 21:28.
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Captain Dart:
Here is a little story that I'm sure you will enjoy.
I was in the city of Guilin not long ago and happened to be walking in one of its spectacular parks with a friend who is a senior government official. I could not help but notice a continuous stream of very noisy PLA jet fighters that seemed to be downwind for their nearby base. I asked my friend if the noise troubled the city and his reply was quote:"we don't find it disturbing in the least, those are our boys up there". Unquote. Considering the encirclement that you reluctantly seem to understand you must agree that such an attitude is a plus for the PLA.
O.P.
P.S. BTW the PLA fighter aerobatic team has just arrived in Russia for the airshow scheduled 27th August to 1st September 2013 at Ramenskoye Airport.
Here is a little story that I'm sure you will enjoy.
I was in the city of Guilin not long ago and happened to be walking in one of its spectacular parks with a friend who is a senior government official. I could not help but notice a continuous stream of very noisy PLA jet fighters that seemed to be downwind for their nearby base. I asked my friend if the noise troubled the city and his reply was quote:"we don't find it disturbing in the least, those are our boys up there". Unquote. Considering the encirclement that you reluctantly seem to understand you must agree that such an attitude is a plus for the PLA.
O.P.
P.S. BTW the PLA fighter aerobatic team has just arrived in Russia for the airshow scheduled 27th August to 1st September 2013 at Ramenskoye Airport.
You must be bursting with pride.
Did you know that my country is holding a national election for government soon? There is a multitude of different political parties and individual candidates standing, and any citizen over the age of 18 can vote for whoever they want.
Our citizens are free to criticise the government, go where they want and live where they want. This, in part, is thanks to the efforts and sacrifices of our air force, army and navy over many decades. We sometimes refer to the noise of our jet fighters as 'the sound of freedom'.
We too have a wonderful air force, but also minimal corruption, stable government, a clean environment, plentiful, good food year round, and I have never experienced here the stupid ATC delays that are routine in China.
Have a nice day.
Did you know that my country is holding a national election for government soon? There is a multitude of different political parties and individual candidates standing, and any citizen over the age of 18 can vote for whoever they want.
Our citizens are free to criticise the government, go where they want and live where they want. This, in part, is thanks to the efforts and sacrifices of our air force, army and navy over many decades. We sometimes refer to the noise of our jet fighters as 'the sound of freedom'.
We too have a wonderful air force, but also minimal corruption, stable government, a clean environment, plentiful, good food year round, and I have never experienced here the stupid ATC delays that are routine in China.
Have a nice day.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 27th Aug 2013 at 09:43.
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Captain Dart,
I think although I am not entirely sure that you are comparing a country of 25 million with a country of 1.3 billion. If that be the case then your lot (the 25 million) has it easy. Considering the 1.3 billion people the government of the People Republic of China has to control and feed I'd say they are doing a pretty good job. Include your ATC in that.
O.P.
I think although I am not entirely sure that you are comparing a country of 25 million with a country of 1.3 billion. If that be the case then your lot (the 25 million) has it easy. Considering the 1.3 billion people the government of the People Republic of China has to control and feed I'd say they are doing a pretty good job. Include your ATC in that.
O.P.
O.P.
Let's not confuse appearances with reality.
Lots of fighters?
Big Navy?
I was on a SAR Exercise once which the Mainland Navy joined in.
After about 24 hours hours 200 miles off the coast, the ship had to return to port as all the crew were seasick.
Uniforms with lots of stripes and shiny badges don't make you powerful.
BTW, who are they paranoid about protecting themselves from????
I don't see too many countries making noises about invading China??
Lets face it, the local little General with his latest gun/aeroplane/tank acquisition, who wants to go out and show off along some of the busiest airways, makes the Central Govt look likes dicks most of the time. I'm surprised they don't slap them down for making fools of the country in the International arena.
Lots of fighters?
Big Navy?
I was on a SAR Exercise once which the Mainland Navy joined in.
After about 24 hours hours 200 miles off the coast, the ship had to return to port as all the crew were seasick.
Uniforms with lots of stripes and shiny badges don't make you powerful.
BTW, who are they paranoid about protecting themselves from????
I don't see too many countries making noises about invading China??
Lets face it, the local little General with his latest gun/aeroplane/tank acquisition, who wants to go out and show off along some of the busiest airways, makes the Central Govt look likes dicks most of the time. I'm surprised they don't slap them down for making fools of the country in the International arena.
Last edited by LapSap; 27th Aug 2013 at 11:53.
O.P.
Just as a matter of interest, what do you think is a reasonable level of delay for a couple of dozen plane loads of passengers to say, Shanghai, due to Military 'games'. (lets face it, thats all it is).
2? 3? 4? 6?hours. Planes coming into HK FIR from several hours away, holding for an hour to go to through DOTMI to Shanghai, then returning back where they came from. You think thats acceptable?
Because that is what happens in our airspace and on the ground at HKIA on a regular basis now.
What did you say earlier?
So how much is enough so everyone can relax?
Just as a matter of interest, what do you think is a reasonable level of delay for a couple of dozen plane loads of passengers to say, Shanghai, due to Military 'games'. (lets face it, thats all it is).
2? 3? 4? 6?hours. Planes coming into HK FIR from several hours away, holding for an hour to go to through DOTMI to Shanghai, then returning back where they came from. You think thats acceptable?
Because that is what happens in our airspace and on the ground at HKIA on a regular basis now.
What did you say earlier?
To make life easier for yourself why don't you just put on more fuel and relax. It's not that hard.