B748i or A380 order?
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The BBC seem to have heard a whisper:
Dubai Air Show: the sky's the limit
Meanwhile, Cathay Pacific and Saudi Arabian Airlines are also expected to be spending big. And Dubai's fast-growing budget carrier Flydubai has signalled its intention to buy more aircraft.
BBC News - Dubai Air Show: the sky's the limit
Dubai Air Show: the sky's the limit
Meanwhile, Cathay Pacific and Saudi Arabian Airlines are also expected to be spending big. And Dubai's fast-growing budget carrier Flydubai has signalled its intention to buy more aircraft.
BBC News - Dubai Air Show: the sky's the limit
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No more 777 orders from CNBC....
Boeing President: 'Not anticipating any more 777 orders'
B748I & A380
American aircraft manufacturer Boeing kicked off the Dubai Air Show on Sunday by announcing 259 orders for its new 777X, totaling over $95 billion at list prices, but Shephard W. Hill, the president of Boeing International told CNBC he did not anticipate further order announcements at the event.
B748I & A380
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Looks like CX took delivery of one of those PIP certification waiting 8Fs today. The commercial aviation blog over at Aviation Week had the following information:
Original blog post here.
I've mentioned elsewhere that I think these numbers have been discussed or mentioned before, but I don't know if all of them have been presented together as an improvement over the initial deliveries.
I was wondering however, is the change in empty weight and change in payload-range capability factored into the fuel burn numbers? Or are those independent elements that must be factored into overall performance of the aircraft as well?
Regardless, congratulations to Boeing and GE on getting the PIP out, and to Cathay for finally being able to take delivery of their PIP'd birds that have been sitting and waiting for the certification. Now it will be interesting to see the order that includes LN 1505, and to see how many more 8Fs are coming, and if there are any potential 8Is that may be tagging along. :-)
The first Boeing 747-8F to be powered with the performance improvement package (PIP) version of the GEnx-2B67 has been delivered to Cathay Pacific from the manufacturer’s Everett site in Washington. The aircraft is the Hong Kong-based carrier’s 11th 747-8F.
The upgraded engine forms the core of a broader set of aerodynamic and structural improvements that have been introduced since the freighter and passenger versions of the aircraft first entered service in 2011 and 2012 respectively. “Together with the other improvements made since entry-into-service on the 747-8F at the end of 2011, the engine PIP bundles 1.8% with another 1.7% for a total of 3.5% (fuel burn),” says 747-8 chief project engineer Bruce Dickinson. In addition to drag reduction and improvements to the cruise efficiency of the wing, the empty weight of the 747-8 has been reduced by almost 8,000 lb, while payload-range capability has been boosted through a 12,000 lb. increase in maximum take-off weight. The GEnx-2B67 PIP incorporates an all-new low-pressure turbine, as well as compressor, combustor and turbine improvements derived from the second batch of upgrades (PIP II) devised for the GEnx-1B engine on the 787. GE provisionally expected a 1.6% fuel burn improvement but, based on positive test data, upped this to 1.8%. The package of upgrades was launched after pre-delivery flight tests revealed a fuel burn performance shortfall in excess of 2%.
The upgraded engine forms the core of a broader set of aerodynamic and structural improvements that have been introduced since the freighter and passenger versions of the aircraft first entered service in 2011 and 2012 respectively. “Together with the other improvements made since entry-into-service on the 747-8F at the end of 2011, the engine PIP bundles 1.8% with another 1.7% for a total of 3.5% (fuel burn),” says 747-8 chief project engineer Bruce Dickinson. In addition to drag reduction and improvements to the cruise efficiency of the wing, the empty weight of the 747-8 has been reduced by almost 8,000 lb, while payload-range capability has been boosted through a 12,000 lb. increase in maximum take-off weight. The GEnx-2B67 PIP incorporates an all-new low-pressure turbine, as well as compressor, combustor and turbine improvements derived from the second batch of upgrades (PIP II) devised for the GEnx-1B engine on the 787. GE provisionally expected a 1.6% fuel burn improvement but, based on positive test data, upped this to 1.8%. The package of upgrades was launched after pre-delivery flight tests revealed a fuel burn performance shortfall in excess of 2%.
I've mentioned elsewhere that I think these numbers have been discussed or mentioned before, but I don't know if all of them have been presented together as an improvement over the initial deliveries.
I was wondering however, is the change in empty weight and change in payload-range capability factored into the fuel burn numbers? Or are those independent elements that must be factored into overall performance of the aircraft as well?
Regardless, congratulations to Boeing and GE on getting the PIP out, and to Cathay for finally being able to take delivery of their PIP'd birds that have been sitting and waiting for the certification. Now it will be interesting to see the order that includes LN 1505, and to see how many more 8Fs are coming, and if there are any potential 8Is that may be tagging along. :-)
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Here you go
Boeing will manufacture the new 777X in Hong Kong. Put up a couple of nice production lines next to HAECO. Willing labour and a quick delivery trip to boot. Can now jump the queue....
Boeing will manufacture the new 777X in Hong Kong. Put up a couple of nice production lines next to HAECO. Willing labour and a quick delivery trip to boot. Can now jump the queue....
Looks like CX took delivery of one of those PIP certification waiting 8Fs today. The commercial aviation blog over at Aviation Week had the following information:
Schedule shows two more Cathay -8Fs to deliver in the next couple days - one tomorrow, one on Monday. Six total PIP equipped -8Fs are supposed to deliver before Christmas.
Good thing, it was getting pretty crowded with 747-8s around here
What I wonder is how the upgraded -8I will compare to the the 777-9
Some of the capacity increase on the 777X is by re-contouring the sidewalls to get a few more inches of width - combined with a slightly narrower seat the can get another seat per row in coach (going from 9 abreast to 10 abreast). So the potential is there to cram a lot of seats in coach which would give really good seat-mile costs. OTOH, much of the popularity of the current 777 with passengers is due to the relatively wide seating - which would obviously be lost with 10 abreast seating
.As I noted previously, the 747-8 has quite a bit more floor space relative to the 777-9, with the additional flexibility of potentially using the ceiling area aft of the 'hump' for sleeping quarters.
So I'm guessing a lot of it has to do with what passenger they want to target - a low fare cattle car economy section with a nice business/first class for those willing to spend the money would probably favor the 777-9. If they want to go for the premium product with private sleepers and such (and prices to match), with a relatively roomy economy section - then a 747-8 (or A380
) would probably make more sense.
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Getting PIP certified was a much bigger struggle than it should have been, but we finally got there.
Schedule shows two more Cathay -8Fs to deliver in the next couple days - one tomorrow, one on Monday. Six total PIP equipped -8Fs are supposed to deliver before Christmas.
Schedule shows two more Cathay -8Fs to deliver in the next couple days - one tomorrow, one on Monday. Six total PIP equipped -8Fs are supposed to deliver before Christmas.
Also, with respect to the information in the Aviation Week blog, can you shed some insight into the 3.5% figure and how it relates to the reduced empty weight and increased payload-range capability? Or what about the FMC update and changes to the tail tank to allow it to remain full for a longer period of time? Will those bring the complete PIP (all three elements) to an over 2% gain?
It should be fun to watch the stream of deliveries in the next few days, and definitely interesting to see if some of the talked about potential orders and commitments come about now that the PIP is in service.
Thanks again for all of your feedback and information!
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TOH, much of the popularity of the current 777 with passengers is due to the relatively wide seating - which would obviously be lost with 10 abreast seating
If they prefer to risk losing their premium pax by sticking to the horrible first class and run-of-the-mill biz class of the T7 to seek immediate fuel savings, I doubt they have the slightest hesitation about skimping on the cattle-class dwellers...
Was it all bureaucratic elements? Or were there other hiccups along the way?
Boeing missed guarantees pretty badly on the initial 747-8. I've been through several programs over the years - usually we miss on something - weight, drag, or SFC - but exceed on at least one of the others and the result is we meet (or are at least close) on the final numbers. On the 747-8 we missed on all three
. So there has been an on-going effort since EIS to fix all three. We've cut out close to 10,000 lbs empty weight, there have been drag improvements, and the PIP was good for 2% in mission fuel burn and basically got us to what we originally promised for SFC.The problem became, as soon as the operators learned of the PIP, they lost interest in taking new airplanes until we could give them the PIP. So the pressure was on to certify the PIP as soon as possible so that we could deliver airplanes. The result was we were given a schedule that we would have struggled to meet even if everything went perfectly. Then there were discoveries during flight test - nothing unusual that we couldn't readily fix - but it took time that wasn't in the schedule. Then the Ice Crystal Icing issue hit the fan, which turned into a major bureaucratic hurdle. The last couple months have not been fun
We saw ~2% mission fuel burn for the PIP, and we got some other small engine fuel burn improvements since EIS with various FADEC adjustments. I know there have been meaningful empty weight reductions, and we bumped the max TO weight by 10,000 lbs (didn't really require any real changes, just using margins that we weren't using), and there have been tweaks to the airplane to reduce drag. But I'm an engine guy - I don't know the details of how they figure a 10k increase in MTOW and a similar reduction in empty weight equates to a ~1.5% improvement in fuel burn.
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But I'm an engine guy - I don't know the details of how they figure a 10k increase in MTOW and a similar reduction in empty weight equates to a ~1.5% improvement in fuel burn.
I do remember early on, even though there was the well known miss on SFC overall, that Boeing and some customers were reporting 1% better fuel efficiency than what was expected. Is this factored into all this current discussion? If the original miss was approx 2.7%, but customers were reporting 1% better than expected, does that mean they were getting 1.7% worse than the originally promised SFC? Or is that part of the early tweaks and changes that clawed back some of the 1.5% to 1.7% that is talked about before the PIP?
In either case, does that mean that the frames with all of the improvements and the PIP will now be exceeding guarantees? In either case, hopefully it means that there is a long and healthy life out there for the 8Fs, and perhaps even some room for the 8Is to find a role, especially in the near term.
Specific to this thread, perhaps the composition of CX's follow on order that LN 1505 points to will include some 747-8Is to go along with their additional freighters.
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Replacing what? Enhanced A330s, 777-300ER, A350-900/1000, 747-8F?
If they plan to keep all of the above mentioned aircraft and dispose of everything else, without adding to any orders, it is still almost a 10% fleet size increase in the next 10 years. Yes it is not to the extent of some operators expansions but at least it is expansion.
In the last 5 years they have been ordering a huge number of airframes, what makes you think this 777 order is the end of the new aircraft?
If they plan to keep all of the above mentioned aircraft and dispose of everything else, without adding to any orders, it is still almost a 10% fleet size increase in the next 10 years. Yes it is not to the extent of some operators expansions but at least it is expansion.
In the last 5 years they have been ordering a huge number of airframes, what makes you think this 777 order is the end of the new aircraft?
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The regional fleet (older A330s, 772 and 773) will need to be replaced in the coming few years. None of what has been ordered so far are planes optimised for regional flying. No doubt they are looking at the 787-10 or the A350R, or to 'mis-use' their longhaul fleet by flying shorthaul without any dedicated short haul planes. (Unlikely in my opinion).
Ordering an A350R for regional, this is the one slated to go LHR - SYD non stop.
Singapore launches lower-weight 'regional' A350