Retirement at 68
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I see the N-sync hair gelled skateboard set have come out of their box once again, interestingly just prior to the start of the typhoon season when their lack of skill set comes to the fore. Perhaps it is because we haven't had a good blow for a few years that they feel empowered. Perhaps it is a case of amnesia, but I have yet to forget the stuttered radio calls from the right hand seat as "motormouth" got out of his comfort zone. He was then found in the gaybar that same night boasting how we got in but others failed. Tool.
Anyone can fly an ILS in good wx, but that don't make you Yeager.
Anyone can fly an ILS in good wx, but that don't make you Yeager.
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Yeah right. Just waited for the quality argument. Like, I can't retire, the airline needs my experience and superior skills, it is not about me and my boring life of nothing that awaits me when I have to return my personality( =uniform), I just feel so responsible to continue to save these hundreds of lives..
Geriatric fools, that 's what you are. I would say " get a life" normally, but clearly it is a bit late for that, isn't it?
We have the most experienced Senior First Officers on the planet,for christs sake.
Geriatric fools, that 's what you are. I would say " get a life" normally, but clearly it is a bit late for that, isn't it?
We have the most experienced Senior First Officers on the planet,for christs sake.
Yes maybe if you forget UA, BA, AA, QF NZ, LH, AF etc we might just have the most experienced FO's on the Planet!!!
I wasn't a Captain all my life you know, basically 15 years in the right seat, 8 of that as a Senior FO relief command on the 400 'waiting' for my turn. So I'm sorry to burst your 'must have it now' bubble but you are going to have to LIVE WITH IT.
you ain't the first.
I wasn't a Captain all my life you know, basically 15 years in the right seat, 8 of that as a Senior FO relief command on the 400 'waiting' for my turn. So I'm sorry to burst your 'must have it now' bubble but you are going to have to LIVE WITH IT.
you ain't the first.
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The reason you only spent 8 years as RQ FO was because of expansion and RA55.
Today's RQ FO's will be there much longer now that you're a captain with RA65, and probable reductions. I know you don't care and you think you're great and special and entitled. Don't ask yourself why you drink beer without the rest of the crew, except for the sycophants and intimidated youngsters.
Today's RQ FO's will be there much longer now that you're a captain with RA65, and probable reductions. I know you don't care and you think you're great and special and entitled. Don't ask yourself why you drink beer without the rest of the crew, except for the sycophants and intimidated youngsters.
I think your Iron fell out of the Fire mate.
Have you heard of ASL? That little fiasco cost me and others 100 command slots, not to mention CX started to extend guys beyond 55 on contract. Yes been there, sent the postcard bud.
15 years and 3 different Airlines before I managed the seniority for the left seat. You didn't see me bitching about my poor rotten life...
me me me.
Is that the theme song of some of our FO's? Just settle down, you'll get your turn soon enough.
I will admit to cringing each time I see some of our 65+ Sim instructors that still need to work!!
Oh, and the guys I had drinks and dinner with last week sure looked like my fellow crew members!!
Have you heard of ASL? That little fiasco cost me and others 100 command slots, not to mention CX started to extend guys beyond 55 on contract. Yes been there, sent the postcard bud.
15 years and 3 different Airlines before I managed the seniority for the left seat. You didn't see me bitching about my poor rotten life...
me me me.
Is that the theme song of some of our FO's? Just settle down, you'll get your turn soon enough.
I will admit to cringing each time I see some of our 65+ Sim instructors that still need to work!!
Oh, and the guys I had drinks and dinner with last week sure looked like my fellow crew members!!
Last edited by nitpicker330; 17th Apr 2012 at 09:32.
I've never said ''my experience is needed".........not once, didn't even imply it.
However as a relatively youngish chap I've still got many years ahead of me. All I'm trying to do is point out that not all of us walked into the left seat, we mostly had to walk the yards first.
It took me quite a few years and nearly 40 years old to achieve command and you ain't getting rid of me yet!!
Exactly how many of our experienced FO's had Jet commands before CX? Not too many I'd venture. I know a few SO's and FO's in Qantas that had Jet Commands before QF, would you like to switch places with them now???
However as a relatively youngish chap I've still got many years ahead of me. All I'm trying to do is point out that not all of us walked into the left seat, we mostly had to walk the yards first.
It took me quite a few years and nearly 40 years old to achieve command and you ain't getting rid of me yet!!
Exactly how many of our experienced FO's had Jet commands before CX? Not too many I'd venture. I know a few SO's and FO's in Qantas that had Jet Commands before QF, would you like to switch places with them now???
Last edited by nitpicker330; 17th Apr 2012 at 10:01.
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The extension from RA 55 to RA 65 did cost me and hundreds of FO's in CX millions. Fact. The golden generation did nothing to compensate us, absolutely nothing. And now, as this wasn't enough, RA even beyond 65.
I say : shame on you, CXorcist,and on all your fellow greedy, selfish, cynical friends.
Be once honest to yourself and admit the burden on Senior First Officers. Arguing with taifuns closing in and only the most senior of captains able to fight bravely thru it is just so cynical and ridiculous, and you know it.Seeing a colleague, left hand seat experience and thousands of heavy jet time as a brat shows your true colours.
I say : shame on you, CXorcist,and on all your fellow greedy, selfish, cynical friends.
Be once honest to yourself and admit the burden on Senior First Officers. Arguing with taifuns closing in and only the most senior of captains able to fight bravely thru it is just so cynical and ridiculous, and you know it.Seeing a colleague, left hand seat experience and thousands of heavy jet time as a brat shows your true colours.
Last edited by 711; 18th Apr 2012 at 07:07.
Yawn...... 
Mate I'm a B scaler and I'm not by any stretch of the imagination rich......
I took hits over the years like you have, been there done that.
You are not the first ones to be screwed over by CX and you won't be the last.
What about the fact that you can now stay up to 10 more years at probably the top increment on the CN scale??? That is worth millions back to you potentially.
( 17 Million HKD approx, without PF OR housing OR 13th month )
Surely that must help a bit???
Mate I'm a B scaler and I'm not by any stretch of the imagination rich......
I took hits over the years like you have, been there done that.
You are not the first ones to be screwed over by CX and you won't be the last.
What about the fact that you can now stay up to 10 more years at probably the top increment on the CN scale??? That is worth millions back to you potentially.
( 17 Million HKD approx, without PF OR housing OR 13th month )
Surely that must help a bit???
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711, that's where you should probably be working. You castigate others for taking advantage of something that YOU yourself will take advantage of when you can. Hypocrite of the highest order. Now, pour me my 'Big Gulp'....
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It is not about accepting extension, of course that is legit. But to argue it is about superior skills needed, that stupid brat first officers do not have, albeit the fact that the senior first officers in this company are the most experienced in the industry is outrageous and dishonest.
No 711 I didn't. If you care to re read my previous posts.
I took nearly 9 years as an FO in CX to get CN.
15 years as an FO in total.
21 years as a Professional Pilot to get CN on anything bigger than a PA 31.
Screwed by ASL and other events in my life that moved the goal posts!!!
You are not the first to have the playing field adjusted in their career!!
So, accept it as **** happens and move on OR FIND ANOTHER JOB.
Oh and I have quite a few friends that are SFO's and they are some of the best operators I've ever had the privilege of working with. they will deserve their commands when they happen. I don't hear them bitching about those of us that just happened to be a little older and got here first!!
I took nearly 9 years as an FO in CX to get CN.
15 years as an FO in total.
21 years as a Professional Pilot to get CN on anything bigger than a PA 31.
Screwed by ASL and other events in my life that moved the goal posts!!!
You are not the first to have the playing field adjusted in their career!!
So, accept it as **** happens and move on OR FIND ANOTHER JOB.
Oh and I have quite a few friends that are SFO's and they are some of the best operators I've ever had the privilege of working with.
they will deserve their commands when they happen. I don't hear them bitching about those of us that just happened to be a little older and got here first!!
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Get real!
Personally,I can't understand what all the fuss is about.Wether someone decides to (legitametly) take advantage of working a few extra years (& why not!) all this stupid talk of " get a life" etc- usually from someone who obviously is either in the wrong job or with the wrong outfit( they think).
Where ,in aviation, does it stipulate that you should " give way" to younger chaps? Do doctors & lawyers etc do the same? No bloody way! Its " dog eat dog" I' m afraid so get used to it!!
Anyway, "flak-jacket on" xxx
Where ,in aviation, does it stipulate that you should " give way" to younger chaps? Do doctors & lawyers etc do the same? No bloody way! Its " dog eat dog" I' m afraid so get used to it!!
Anyway, "flak-jacket on" xxx
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Again and again and again:
Is NOT about accepting an offer to work longer ( at least until 65),
it is about the INSULTING,CYNICAL, and RIDICOLOUS argument, that it is in the interest of safety to work longer because senior officers in CX are not ready ( after 20 years plus in the industry..) For the love of Jesus Christ..
Is NOT about accepting an offer to work longer ( at least until 65),
it is about the INSULTING,CYNICAL, and RIDICOLOUS argument, that it is in the interest of safety to work longer because senior officers in CX are not ready ( after 20 years plus in the industry..) For the love of Jesus Christ..
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Yes, the vast majority of our senior first officers are top notch....
But not all of them....some, as can be seen on this thread, like to talk about their self-perceived skills and pound their chest.
Most of our skippers are top blokes. But a small number can give the rest a bad name.
Bottom line is....until you aquire the appropriate experience (in a big airplane...not a tiny one) and until you demonstrate your competence by successfully completing the command course (in a big airplane...not a tiny one) your crosswind limt remains 10kts/15 kts.
Nuff said......
But not all of them....some, as can be seen on this thread, like to talk about their self-perceived skills and pound their chest.
Most of our skippers are top blokes. But a small number can give the rest a bad name.
Bottom line is....until you aquire the appropriate experience (in a big airplane...not a tiny one) and until you demonstrate your competence by successfully completing the command course (in a big airplane...not a tiny one) your crosswind limt remains 10kts/15 kts.
Nuff said......
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Bottom line is....until you aquire the appropriate experience (in a big airplane...not a tiny one) and until you demonstrate your competence by successfully completing the command course (in a big airplane...not a tiny one) your crosswind limt remains 10kts/15 kts.
Human factors in aviation crashes involving older pilots.
Li G, Baker SP, Lamb MW, Grabowski JG, Rebok GW.
Source
Department of Emergency Medicine, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD 21205, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Pilot errors are recognized as a contributing factor in as many as 80% of aviation crashes. Experimental studies using flight simulators indicate that due to decreased working memory capacity, older pilots are outperformed by their younger counterparts in communication tasks and flight summary scores.
OBJECTIVE:
This study examines age-related differences in crash circumstances and pilot errors in a sample of pilots who flew commuter aircraft or air taxis and who were involved in airplane or helicopter crashes.
METHODS:
A historical cohort of 3306 pilots who in 1987 flew commuter aircraft or air taxis and were 45-54 yr of age was constructed using the Federal Aviation Administration's airmen information system. Crash records of the study subjects for the years 1983-1997 were obtained from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) by matching name and date of birth. NTSB's investigation reports were reviewed to identify pilot errors and other contributing factors. Comparisons of crash circumstances and human factors were made between pilots aged 40-49 yr and pilots aged 50-63 yr.
RESULTS:
A total of 165 crash records were studied, with 52% of these crashes involving pilots aged 50-63 yr. Crash circumstances, such as time and location of crash, type and phase of flight, and weather conditions, were similar between the two age groups. Pilot error was a contributing factor in 73% of the crashes involving younger pilots and in 69% of the crashes involving older pilots (p = 0.50). Age-related differences in the pattern of pilot errors were statistically insignificant. Overall, 23% of pilot errors were attributable to inattentiveness, 20% to flawed decisions, 18% to mishandled aircraft kinetics, and 18% to mishandled wind/runway conditions.
CONCLUSIONS:
Neither crash circumstances nor the prevalence and patterns of pilot errors appear to change significantly as age increases from the 40s to the 50s and early 60s.
Li G, Baker SP, Lamb MW, Grabowski JG, Rebok GW.
Source
Department of Emergency Medicine, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD 21205, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Pilot errors are recognized as a contributing factor in as many as 80% of aviation crashes. Experimental studies using flight simulators indicate that due to decreased working memory capacity, older pilots are outperformed by their younger counterparts in communication tasks and flight summary scores.
OBJECTIVE:
This study examines age-related differences in crash circumstances and pilot errors in a sample of pilots who flew commuter aircraft or air taxis and who were involved in airplane or helicopter crashes.
METHODS:
A historical cohort of 3306 pilots who in 1987 flew commuter aircraft or air taxis and were 45-54 yr of age was constructed using the Federal Aviation Administration's airmen information system. Crash records of the study subjects for the years 1983-1997 were obtained from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) by matching name and date of birth. NTSB's investigation reports were reviewed to identify pilot errors and other contributing factors. Comparisons of crash circumstances and human factors were made between pilots aged 40-49 yr and pilots aged 50-63 yr.
RESULTS:
A total of 165 crash records were studied, with 52% of these crashes involving pilots aged 50-63 yr. Crash circumstances, such as time and location of crash, type and phase of flight, and weather conditions, were similar between the two age groups. Pilot error was a contributing factor in 73% of the crashes involving younger pilots and in 69% of the crashes involving older pilots (p = 0.50). Age-related differences in the pattern of pilot errors were statistically insignificant. Overall, 23% of pilot errors were attributable to inattentiveness, 20% to flawed decisions, 18% to mishandled aircraft kinetics, and 18% to mishandled wind/runway conditions.
CONCLUSIONS:
Neither crash circumstances nor the prevalence and patterns of pilot errors appear to change significantly as age increases from the 40s to the 50s and early 60s.
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Flap 10
So...the crosswind limit is in place is due to cheaper insurance rates......doesn't that spell it out for you?
The reason the insurance actuaries and the insurance companies
place a premium on experience level should then be obvious to you..should it not?
I can remember, when as a new F/O on the Classic, the left seater keeping his hands near the yoke during my first of couple of years. Looking back now, I can appreciate his apprehension. Until I learned how to land the airplane in a crosswind with wings level and on the centerline....and until I could project the required level of comfort through demonstrated skill....and not by self proclamation...they were right to be careful.
The limits are in place until one upgrades...fom JFO to F/O...to Captain. No amount of stamping your feet will ever change that.
There is a direct actuarial link between lack of experience and aviation mishaps. As there is a link in every profession between experience and how well one performs his job. Raw skills and basic talent are not limited to experience levels. But then raw skill and basic talent are only a small part of what makes a skilled and experienced professional. Which is why in every profession the experienced and members of that profession can attract the higher pay.
As in most things....money talks.
So...the crosswind limit is in place is due to cheaper insurance rates......doesn't that spell it out for you?
The reason the insurance actuaries and the insurance companies
place a premium on experience level should then be obvious to you..should it not?
I can remember, when as a new F/O on the Classic, the left seater keeping his hands near the yoke during my first of couple of years. Looking back now, I can appreciate his apprehension. Until I learned how to land the airplane in a crosswind with wings level and on the centerline....and until I could project the required level of comfort through demonstrated skill....and not by self proclamation...they were right to be careful.
The limits are in place until one upgrades...fom JFO to F/O...to Captain. No amount of stamping your feet will ever change that.
There is a direct actuarial link between lack of experience and aviation mishaps. As there is a link in every profession between experience and how well one performs his job. Raw skills and basic talent are not limited to experience levels. But then raw skill and basic talent are only a small part of what makes a skilled and experienced professional. Which is why in every profession the experienced and members of that profession can attract the higher pay.
As in most things....money talks.
Last edited by raven11; 18th Apr 2012 at 12:23.