(Do away with) Seniority
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(Do away with) Seniority
There been a fair amount of chatter abot the seniority system, pro's and cons and wether we should do away with it. From my point of view I left General aviation because amongst other things, it was a free for all, dog eat dog,out bid your mate to get the twin job etc. What I wanted was a career Airline(what CX used to be) where everyone would wait their turn for an upgrade and not try to out bid each other and jump the queue. However since I joined, ASL was integrated, The Company offered "early freighter Commands"(i.e a nice way of saying you can do a command out of seniority but the payoff is we pay you less) and Direct Entery Captains ex Oasis. Now I know everyone has their sop story in CX but I fail to see the logic of a system - or lack of it, where there is no way of climbing the ladder. Potentially an S/O or an F/O can stay that for life because he will always be outbid by a more experienced outsider who is not to charmed with living in a third world dump etc and is willing to work for less. This is especially true of Captains. I'm sure there are many third world captains who would love to join CX on a lower COS then currently we have.
Most of those saying do away with the system seem to be captains. Strange that. Once upon a time you too were a junior crew member waiting your turn for an upgrade and relying on the system but now that you've got want you want, it's, oh well the seniority system is of no use to me now I''v got what I wanted so to all the junior crew waiting for their command, tough luck mate I'm OK, and I want to shop around.
There are airlines out there which are not career airlines and they are well known and do not have a seniority system and if you wish to go there best of luck to you but in our case lets give the junior crew a chance just like we had
Anyway thats my 5 cents worth, I'm open to other opinions (an oxymoron for a pilot !) so would welcome them if you have the time
Most of those saying do away with the system seem to be captains. Strange that. Once upon a time you too were a junior crew member waiting your turn for an upgrade and relying on the system but now that you've got want you want, it's, oh well the seniority system is of no use to me now I''v got what I wanted so to all the junior crew waiting for their command, tough luck mate I'm OK, and I want to shop around.
There are airlines out there which are not career airlines and they are well known and do not have a seniority system and if you wish to go there best of luck to you but in our case lets give the junior crew a chance just like we had
Anyway thats my 5 cents worth, I'm open to other opinions (an oxymoron for a pilot !) so would welcome them if you have the time
I'm open to other opinions (an oxymoron for a pilot !)
I have worked for three international majors all of which had a seniority system and held a command in two. For good reason I left one just as I was coming up for a command course.
As first officers reached the top of the pile they were given a command course which they would usually pass. There were, regrettably, some Cat 'C' FOs who had been assessed as not suitable for command. They had to make the decision whether to stay with a top outfit as FO or leave and try their chances elsewhere.
I am completely in favour of a seniority system. It is fair, affords confidence, gives a structured career and rings a bell if 'favourites' are promoted out of seniority.
Two of the airlines for which I flew had 'early command' opportunities such as the Cathay freighter route, e.g. command on turboprops or in a subsidiary or at an unpopular base. That isn't 'out of seniority' since anyone can bid. I have known very senior SFOs remain on a senior (i.e. attractive) fleet rather that take their command course on a less desirable operation.
The seniority system can break down a bit in periods of rapid expansion where there is a shortage of suitably FOs within the company but these exceptions need to be carefully monitored and explained to avoid the bad feeling and negative attitude which could be engendered.
You pays your money and takes your chance but I would not wish to work for an outfit which did not have a seniority system in place.
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As usual all we are concerned about is moving up the ladder, forget it, all we should worry about is pay! You go where you are happy with the pay. Who cares what rank you are. The rest of the world functions without it why can't we.
"I'd leave if they took housing away"
"Really where to?"
"I'd leave if they took housing away"
"Really where to?"
No one who gets paid $200k is going to leave for a job that's pays $40k
No one who gets paid $175k is going to leave for a job that's pays $50k
No one who gets paid $150k is going to leave for a job that's pays $60k
No one who gets paid $125kk is going to leave for a job that's pays $70k
No one who gets paid $100k is going to leave for a job that's pays $80k
(actually they might if it was an improvement in lifestyle)
No one who gets paid $175k is going to leave for a job that's pays $50k
No one who gets paid $150k is going to leave for a job that's pays $60k
No one who gets paid $125kk is going to leave for a job that's pays $70k
No one who gets paid $100k is going to leave for a job that's pays $80k
(actually they might if it was an improvement in lifestyle)
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Thanks both for your reply. Yes freighter commands were offered to anyone who would take them but at a much reduced payscale, so I am basically bieng undercut by junior crew who are not prepared to wait their turn. Welcome to the real world I hear you say. Well if we are all prepared to outbid each other then where will it end. Already at CX, once a premium airline which was tough to get in, they are now recruiting in third world countries (no disrespect) where they are prepared to accept a much lower CoS.
Regarding your view that who cares about the rank show me the money,I disagree. Most pilots aspire to sit in the left. Its the cullmination of all we have been working towards, and I know very few professions which have the same magical touch at the top. Call it ego, a very rewarding job, but it is a very special feeling to be in charge of a planeload of people and operate in some challenging circumstances.
I am just worried at the degradation of our profession at a highly rapid rate, to which we have very much ourselves to blame. You have to agree that an airline pilot is not a top job anymore and I think the more we try to act as individuals and try to get as much, quickly before we turn off the lights is pretty short sighted. Would you pass this job on to your children, I used to think so.
Regarding your view that who cares about the rank show me the money,I disagree. Most pilots aspire to sit in the left. Its the cullmination of all we have been working towards, and I know very few professions which have the same magical touch at the top. Call it ego, a very rewarding job, but it is a very special feeling to be in charge of a planeload of people and operate in some challenging circumstances.
I am just worried at the degradation of our profession at a highly rapid rate, to which we have very much ourselves to blame. You have to agree that an airline pilot is not a top job anymore and I think the more we try to act as individuals and try to get as much, quickly before we turn off the lights is pretty short sighted. Would you pass this job on to your children, I used to think so.
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While I appreciate the dialogue on seniority and have been a staunch supporter of it over the years, this discussion should really be about the three options available to you. That is:
1. Stay with your current employer and accept being by-passed. Hopefully a command will come you way soon.
2. Resign from you current employer. Don't ever do this unless you have a better job to go to.
3. Take a command at a lower salary and use it to launch your career elsewhere - like everyone else is doing.
There is no easy answer. Only you know your personal circumstances and only you know what is best for you. Ponder these options and discuss them with those you trust.
1. Stay with your current employer and accept being by-passed. Hopefully a command will come you way soon.
2. Resign from you current employer. Don't ever do this unless you have a better job to go to.
3. Take a command at a lower salary and use it to launch your career elsewhere - like everyone else is doing.
There is no easy answer. Only you know your personal circumstances and only you know what is best for you. Ponder these options and discuss them with those you trust.
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If I may put in my two cents worth...
I can understand both the arguments for and against seniority however one thing I firmly believe is that seniority, ultimately drives down pay.
I'm not aware of any other industry where experience and qualifications aren't wholly transferable. The thought of a marketing manager taking a 60% pay cut and downgraded to a trainee just to change the company he/she works for is laughable... it would never happen. So, why can't a Cathay Captain move to BA or Qantas at the same job level?
There are several reasons why this is not allowed to occur. One is because it is very expensive to train pilots so the higher the crew turnover, the higher the training costs. This is not helped by SOP's... or more accurately, differing SOP's between airlines. If each aircraft manufacturer created a uniform set of SOP's to be enforced by all airlines/operators for each aircraft type, then a Cathay B747 pilot could walk in and fly a Qantas B747 with little or no training.
Seniority, along with incremental payscales, lock pilots in. It focusses our minds on what we WILL have rather than what we have NOW. It punishes us for seeking out new opportunities by artificially making them less attractive. It inhibits free movement and market forces and allows airlines to operate in a cartel-like manner, collectively degrading packages and restricting competition.
I would rather see seniority limited to, for example, leave days. ie, longer service = more holidays. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if at some point in the future it was deemed illegal to pay pilots of the same rank, doing the same job different salaries just because they have worked at the airline longer, probably using some age-discrimiation type argument!
Personally, I believe that if uniform training standards and procedures were implemented across the industry and seniority was mostly abolished, then our pay would be much higher than it is today. Airlines could then recover new type rating costs by salary deduction over a fixed period to allow movement between types... I think we would still be quids in by a huge amount.
Of course there are advantages to seniority, as others have already mentioned. But make no mistake about it... The reason we have it isn't because it's good for us... it's because it's good for the airlines.
I can understand both the arguments for and against seniority however one thing I firmly believe is that seniority, ultimately drives down pay.
I'm not aware of any other industry where experience and qualifications aren't wholly transferable. The thought of a marketing manager taking a 60% pay cut and downgraded to a trainee just to change the company he/she works for is laughable... it would never happen. So, why can't a Cathay Captain move to BA or Qantas at the same job level?
There are several reasons why this is not allowed to occur. One is because it is very expensive to train pilots so the higher the crew turnover, the higher the training costs. This is not helped by SOP's... or more accurately, differing SOP's between airlines. If each aircraft manufacturer created a uniform set of SOP's to be enforced by all airlines/operators for each aircraft type, then a Cathay B747 pilot could walk in and fly a Qantas B747 with little or no training.
Seniority, along with incremental payscales, lock pilots in. It focusses our minds on what we WILL have rather than what we have NOW. It punishes us for seeking out new opportunities by artificially making them less attractive. It inhibits free movement and market forces and allows airlines to operate in a cartel-like manner, collectively degrading packages and restricting competition.
I would rather see seniority limited to, for example, leave days. ie, longer service = more holidays. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if at some point in the future it was deemed illegal to pay pilots of the same rank, doing the same job different salaries just because they have worked at the airline longer, probably using some age-discrimiation type argument!
Personally, I believe that if uniform training standards and procedures were implemented across the industry and seniority was mostly abolished, then our pay would be much higher than it is today. Airlines could then recover new type rating costs by salary deduction over a fixed period to allow movement between types... I think we would still be quids in by a huge amount.
Of course there are advantages to seniority, as others have already mentioned. But make no mistake about it... The reason we have it isn't because it's good for us... it's because it's good for the airlines.
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Most pilots aspire to sit in the left. Its the cullmination of all we have been working towards, and I know very few professions which have the same magical touch at the top. Call it ego, a very rewarding job, but it is a very special feeling to be in charge of a planeload of people and operate in some challenging circumstances.
Look at the hiding the iCadets are getting for shiny jet syndrome, command is just the same s^~t and we fall for it again and again. We sacrifice $$$ for shiny four bars, A scale being cut to B, B to C no one can leave because of the pay cut afforded by seniority systems.
Problem is it's very hard to get rid of seniority but perhaps it'll happen over time.
I see Etihad offered DECs today.
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I disagree. If seniority was to become a thing of the past and the company "offered" commands out of seniority, how do you think they would do it?
In the past it was to bases which were not necessarily as attractive as others. Seeing as bases seem to be a dying breed, what do you think the company would offer in exchange for an "early" command out of seniority?
The short answer is LESS MONEY! The company could very easily say, F/O Bloggs who's been here 5 years, we'll give you a command now on 85,000 a month with 4 weeks leave or you can wait for seniority (another 10 years at least).
This also at least enables the new captain to get some P1 time and leave but for at least some time, has given the company a cheap Captain.
Seniority is and has always been a double edged sword, sometimes good for us, sometimes good for the company, and sometimes bad for both.
With all of the things going on at the moment, seniority hardly seems the most important thing to fight for (or against).
In the past it was to bases which were not necessarily as attractive as others. Seeing as bases seem to be a dying breed, what do you think the company would offer in exchange for an "early" command out of seniority?
The short answer is LESS MONEY! The company could very easily say, F/O Bloggs who's been here 5 years, we'll give you a command now on 85,000 a month with 4 weeks leave or you can wait for seniority (another 10 years at least).
This also at least enables the new captain to get some P1 time and leave but for at least some time, has given the company a cheap Captain.
Seniority is and has always been a double edged sword, sometimes good for us, sometimes good for the company, and sometimes bad for both.
With all of the things going on at the moment, seniority hardly seems the most important thing to fight for (or against).
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As Churchill once said, Democracy is a rotten system but far better than all the rest.
Seniority eventually affects everyone, even management pilots , so A DOJ system for everything must be applied in order to have some sort of fair transparent system.
It should be applicable to :
Leave
Rostering
Standby duty
Promotion
Lay -Offs
Basings
Increments
Staff Travel
But must also be in conjunction with the same pay and conditions for the same job.
Seniority eventually affects everyone, even management pilots , so A DOJ system for everything must be applied in order to have some sort of fair transparent system.
It should be applicable to :
Leave
Rostering
Standby duty
Promotion
Lay -Offs
Basings
Increments
Staff Travel
But must also be in conjunction with the same pay and conditions for the same job.
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If you don't like the seniority system, then go get yourself a contract job, there are plenty out there. If you wanted to work in your country's national airline (or one of the US mainlines) then you should have gotten a job there. If you didn't or couldn't, then too bad. You've basically always had the choice to work in your country, or go to EK or CX or a handful of other options, and whether you stick with it or not is up to you.
Nobody is "forced" to stay anywhere. Either the deal is worth it to you, or it is not.
There are many other career fields that do not operate this way. You can join one of those fields, too, as soon as you get yourself qualified and experienced enough to market yourself as well as you did to end up where you are now, minus the seniority system that got you the pay you get now.
Also, not everything is based on seniority, nor should it be. Primarily, the opportunity to be promoted is offered in seniority, and that's about all that really matters. If you think the same top of the list guys should always get everything out there always before anyone else, and the bottom guys should never get anything ever for 30 years, then you've got other problems. Just like common jet salary is one way of doing things, leave points and jokers and other rotating priority systems or limited extra priorities, like Pri 4 FOC (not that it works) spread the jam around a bit, and that's also fair game.
Nobody is "forced" to stay anywhere. Either the deal is worth it to you, or it is not.
There are many other career fields that do not operate this way. You can join one of those fields, too, as soon as you get yourself qualified and experienced enough to market yourself as well as you did to end up where you are now, minus the seniority system that got you the pay you get now.
Also, not everything is based on seniority, nor should it be. Primarily, the opportunity to be promoted is offered in seniority, and that's about all that really matters. If you think the same top of the list guys should always get everything out there always before anyone else, and the bottom guys should never get anything ever for 30 years, then you've got other problems. Just like common jet salary is one way of doing things, leave points and jokers and other rotating priority systems or limited extra priorities, like Pri 4 FOC (not that it works) spread the jam around a bit, and that's also fair game.
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That is something I think is morally wrong. If times really become hard and CX has to let go the last 200 guys who joined, that could possible be the end of their career, some may be just starting down the family road, have huge mortgage payments and family to support. If instead you look at the next 30 guys up for retirement, the saving to the company would be greater, they should by then have their lives sorted out, they will be financially secure, they only had 6 months left anyway. That is how it should be and if when I am in my 65th year and I am unfortunate enough to still be working for CX when they require redundancies I will put my hand up if it will save the jobs of 3-4 guys just starting out for another 6 months. Anything else is pretty selfish if you ask me.
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Yes to seniority.
In aviation, particularly an airline, I think a seniority system is the only way to go. Why? Because unlike those in over industries, pilots tend to do just about anything to fly and progress.
Back in GA, I was about to start flying the twin, then some rich brat came along and offered to pay the company $50/hr to fly their C310! Of course they got the spot, while I had to stay on the single, and when they had a few hundred hours moved onto somewhere else (Metro from memory). When I was then offered it the owner wanted me to pay as well! (I didn't BTW).
There will always be someone willing to do the job for less just to fly something bigger and better. This "disease" has spread to airlines as well. Look at Jetstar in Australia. People flying the same size aircraft, over basically the same routes as Qantas, for less money, and after paying for their endorsement!
Sure the system at Cathay isn't perfect. Consider the case of a DEFO who is now based in HKG. They are being paid more compared to another FO, who is perhaps three years more senior than them, simply because they started on FO1 when the other FO was only SO3 at the time.
By doing away with seniority, it would just create a free for all, with people crawling over each other, agreeing to do it for less and less, just to get their command on a widebody jet.
Back in GA, I was about to start flying the twin, then some rich brat came along and offered to pay the company $50/hr to fly their C310! Of course they got the spot, while I had to stay on the single, and when they had a few hundred hours moved onto somewhere else (Metro from memory). When I was then offered it the owner wanted me to pay as well! (I didn't BTW).
There will always be someone willing to do the job for less just to fly something bigger and better. This "disease" has spread to airlines as well. Look at Jetstar in Australia. People flying the same size aircraft, over basically the same routes as Qantas, for less money, and after paying for their endorsement!
Sure the system at Cathay isn't perfect. Consider the case of a DEFO who is now based in HKG. They are being paid more compared to another FO, who is perhaps three years more senior than them, simply because they started on FO1 when the other FO was only SO3 at the time.
By doing away with seniority, it would just create a free for all, with people crawling over each other, agreeing to do it for less and less, just to get their command on a widebody jet.
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Who would be let go first?
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Iceman,
Last time I checked, my contract said "home base of London, United Kingdom" with a company address of Hammersmith, London so I think you'll find that covers us under EU employment legislation as well!
PP
If so, it could be argued elsewhere in the world
THIS is Hong Kong
PP
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I'm not aware of any other industry where experience and qualifications aren't wholly transferable. The thought of a marketing manager taking a 60% pay cut and downgraded to a trainee just to change the company he/she works for is laughable... it would never happen.
I was discussing this recently with someone from general HR and the current thinking is "we don't want someone with 'experience' because the game has changed. If you've been twenty years in the job, you're so going to be so out of touch you'll be no better than a trainee. Maybe worse."
One employer even went so far as to say that they won't take graduates because their industry changes so fast, those guys are getting degrees on the back of obsolete teaching.
Compared to agriculture, banking, politics and general manufacturing, the aviation industry is still in its infancy and probably due for a dramatic lurch in a new direction pretty soon. I wouldn't worry about making long-term career plans on the basis of today's practices.
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the aviation industry is still in its infancy and probably due for a dramatic lurch in a new direction pretty soon. I wouldn't worry about making long-term career plans on the basis of today's practices.
it most certainly is happening with "highly experienced" personnel of all kinds taking 60%+ cuts and radically different T&Cs just to keep off the unemployment register
Accountability... that's a factor that would prevent airlines from taking the cheapest, DEC/DEFO in a non-seniority based aviation industry. At the moment, the major legacy carriers generally promote from within. This gives them plenty of knowledge and experience of the boys and girls that get promoted to the left seat, allowing them to defend their check and training systems in the case of a commander having a serious incident/accident.
When DEC's are recruited, an airline has to be able to defend it's position of allowing a "less known quantity" take command of one of it's aircraft. In the case of many of the Oasis DEC's, they were experienced B744 Captain's with BA with anything up to 37 years experience, which is probably an easy case for an airline like Cathay to defend should the need arise. If CX were to offer up cheap external passenger commands to the lowest bidder and a fatal accident was to occur with one of those pilots at the helm, it wouldn't take long for the airline's reputation to suffer an irrecoverable loss.
No seniority system... I would guess it would increase our basic salaries enormously. Free movement, free market and promotions based on merit... I really need to lay off the sleeping pills...
PP
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and the bottom guys should never get anything ever for 30 years,
Last edited by Cumguzzler; 23rd Mar 2012 at 18:59.
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Yes, but I reckon that's more to do with the economic downturn and the associated need for cost cutting rather than a practice designed to prevent skilled personnel from moving jobs at their current job/experience level or better.
Accountability... that's a factor that would prevent airlines from taking the cheapest, DEC/DEFO in a non-seniority based aviation industry. At the moment, the major legacy carriers generally promote from within. This gives them plenty of knowledge and experience of the boys and girls that get promoted to the left seat, allowing them to defend their check and training systems in the case of a commander having a serious incident/accident.
Accountability... that's a factor that would prevent airlines from taking the cheapest, DEC/DEFO in a non-seniority based aviation industry. At the moment, the major legacy carriers generally promote from within. This gives them plenty of knowledge and experience of the boys and girls that get promoted to the left seat, allowing them to defend their check and training systems in the case of a commander having a serious incident/accident.
Then there is (a variation on ) the law of diminishing returns. Years of experience are accompanied by the accumulation of bad habits and/or fixed opinions. In another life, I used to be in charge of CPD for my colleagues. It was no surprise to see that our events were mostly attended by younger members of the profession - they obviously had more to learn, didn't they?
Well, yes, up to a point - but the it was the older members who featured more in disciplinary procedures. Moreover, the events involving the rookies were most frequently due to a lack of appropriate supervision, not training. The old hands were most often criticised for failing to follow best practice - too much of the wrong kind of experience, leading to arrogance and stubborness.
From an institutional point of view, it could be argued we end up at the same point - keep the old guys, because when something goes wrong we can blame it on the individual rather than accept that our corporate policy might have shortcomings.
