PX Sectors
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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PX Sectors
Sorry guys for not knowing the history but have acknowledged numerous roster changes that have me px ing,( yet again!!) reducing my overtime I had rostered for January (this is not new it is every ******* month). My big question for a 5 year newbie......."WHO THE **** LET THEM GET AWAY WITH HALF CREDIT FOR PX SECTORS"..........they should have their balls removed............so fuc***g frustrating!!!
The Cav
The Cav
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You have been here for 5 years....it's not even January yet...you continue to acknowledge roster changes....and you are surprised your roster has been manipulated to reduce your overtime....
Join Date: Dec 2005
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call them up and ask WHY? they're not supposed to f*ck with your roster just to reduce overtime.
Afaik. only if they need a flight for training they can take if off you. Having said that, sometimes they will make it a training flt for a few hours and change it back to a normal line flight, but they are not required to inform you of that, so YOU need to be on the ball and step on their toes...
Afaik. only if they need a flight for training they can take if off you. Having said that, sometimes they will make it a training flt for a few hours and change it back to a normal line flight, but they are not required to inform you of that, so YOU need to be on the ball and step on their toes...
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Desert Rat try not to be a smart arse, I am on reserve I have to answer the phone and be contactable, I find out now (or just after my next duty) it is just continued frustration that is all!!!
The Cav
The Cav
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Don't acknowledge!!
Don't acknowledge the changes, even if you're on reserve.
If you're on reserve, call them & ask what the changes are, that way you can ask them on the spot why they've intentionally manipulated your roster. You'd be surprised how quickly things change back when they know you're on to them.
If you're on reserve, call them & ask what the changes are, that way you can ask them on the spot why they've intentionally manipulated your roster. You'd be surprised how quickly things change back when they know you're on to them.
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To answer your question Cav, we're all responsible. Every single one of us. Because we continue to allow our contract to be eroded this way. And its never going to change. I've had approximately 20 roster changes this month and the final version looks nothing like the published roster. And most of those changes were acknowledged by me. The disruption to my personal life has been massive.
So, I've decided to heed the advice of others and have clicked on my last ever "Outstanding Roster Change". If everyone did the same, then they would have to stabilize the roster as there's not enough hours in the day to inform us of every change . 2,500+ pilots is a lot of rosters to manage and I reckon the vast majority of changes are acknowleded by us. This is supposed to be a scheduled airline but the roster is being manged like a third world charter outfit. And I'm afraid I've had enough.
And don't get me started about the leave system. No leave this summer. Thanks Cathay. I'm feeling part of the team for sure.
And another thing................
So, I've decided to heed the advice of others and have clicked on my last ever "Outstanding Roster Change". If everyone did the same, then they would have to stabilize the roster as there's not enough hours in the day to inform us of every change . 2,500+ pilots is a lot of rosters to manage and I reckon the vast majority of changes are acknowleded by us. This is supposed to be a scheduled airline but the roster is being manged like a third world charter outfit. And I'm afraid I've had enough.
And don't get me started about the leave system. No leave this summer. Thanks Cathay. I'm feeling part of the team for sure.
And another thing................
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Interesting point by sir KDM. I have in the past ack'd roster changes, for example because I'm on G's and my next trip is at dark o'clock on the first day back...and I want to know what's going on so I can plan my life! However, about 6 months ago I changed to a blanket self-ban on ack's when I realised that they're mostly just manipulating the roster in as many different ways as they can just to save the the odd 30mins HDP here and there. I guess being bored at 0400 up in CC that's what they do to fill up their time.
Join Date: May 2004
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You can get your crew message when you show up to your published rostered duty, as required by the CAD so you can plan adequate rest. Do that and you will see how few roster changes you get.
Keep in mind guys, if you ever find yourself on the stand and your performance is under question, you will not be able to say "I was tired" as a defense. The company has gone to great lengths to isolate themselves legally while retaining productivity. That is all that FRMS is, a way for the company to pass the buck on to you if they roster you to the limits. That is why it is so important to make a paper trail for any rostering abuses. They are counting on us to not bother with forms, that is why they make them tedious to fill out.
Make no mistake, if you operate an aircraft while "fatigued", you will be held criminally responsible and there is nothing that any organization or lawyer can do. It is now the same as driving drunk, so you should not use "I was tired" as a defense as much as you would not use "I was drunk" to remove your blame.
And for those with trouble reading the fine print, that means whinging about being tired in the cockpit. When they pull the CVR, if you are on there complaining about how tired you are after a ****ty roster, this is the same as bragging that being at the bar doing shooters right before departure was a bad idea.
So be careful boys and girls, the framework has changed - fatigue is still just as much, if not more, of a problem. But the consequences are now aimed at you, there is no more "shared responsibility".
Keep in mind guys, if you ever find yourself on the stand and your performance is under question, you will not be able to say "I was tired" as a defense. The company has gone to great lengths to isolate themselves legally while retaining productivity. That is all that FRMS is, a way for the company to pass the buck on to you if they roster you to the limits. That is why it is so important to make a paper trail for any rostering abuses. They are counting on us to not bother with forms, that is why they make them tedious to fill out.
Make no mistake, if you operate an aircraft while "fatigued", you will be held criminally responsible and there is nothing that any organization or lawyer can do. It is now the same as driving drunk, so you should not use "I was tired" as a defense as much as you would not use "I was drunk" to remove your blame.
And for those with trouble reading the fine print, that means whinging about being tired in the cockpit. When they pull the CVR, if you are on there complaining about how tired you are after a ****ty roster, this is the same as bragging that being at the bar doing shooters right before departure was a bad idea.
So be careful boys and girls, the framework has changed - fatigue is still just as much, if not more, of a problem. But the consequences are now aimed at you, there is no more "shared responsibility".
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You'd be surprised at how much it benefits YOU when you show up at your originally rostered report time and find out that something has changed which, due to your signing on at the rostered time, you will NOT be able to do!
I think Sir KDM has a very good point: if NONE of us acknowledge roster changes through Crew Direct there will not be enough man hours available for Screw Control to call everyone!
However, based on how I've seen our conditions erode over the years due to our own selfishness, I doubt a significant number of crewmembers will follow the "do not acknowledge" hint.
I think Sir KDM has a very good point: if NONE of us acknowledge roster changes through Crew Direct there will not be enough man hours available for Screw Control to call everyone!
However, based on how I've seen our conditions erode over the years due to our own selfishness, I doubt a significant number of crewmembers will follow the "do not acknowledge" hint.
Just show up for your rostered duty. That's all you're required to do. Acknowledge nothing and don't answer the phone unless on Reserve. Results will follow VERY quickly. Worth a try - surely.
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Couldn't agree more.
I NEVER ack'n a roster change, ever, and rarely ever get mucked around.
3 times I have shown uP at Kitty City (knowing I wouldn't be flying it) but my official duty was as rostered, so off I go.
Get sent home an hour later, no more work.
CC must have a system that "grades" people on their amount of ack'n.
No wonder I don't get stuffed around, coz I DONT F&@KIN' ACK.
Put 2 n 2 together....
I NEVER ack'n a roster change, ever, and rarely ever get mucked around.
3 times I have shown uP at Kitty City (knowing I wouldn't be flying it) but my official duty was as rostered, so off I go.
Get sent home an hour later, no more work.
CC must have a system that "grades" people on their amount of ack'n.
No wonder I don't get stuffed around, coz I DONT F&@KIN' ACK.
Put 2 n 2 together....
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I learned this early on from a friend 8 years ahead of me, on how to behave with CC every day except R days:
- Print your roster on the 15th, and never ever look online again.
- Show up for rostered flights no matter what, even when you know it is cancelled. 99.9% of time, you end up doing the rostered flights or get the day off (after an hour of "standby" at dispatch) instead of more R time because some other guy got/will get jerked around since he answers his phone and/or checks crew direct.
- Don't give them your phone number, and don't call them from your phone without blocking the number. Any number you call them from can be kept forever in their system.
- Let them have a phone number on which you can be reached during R days with a separate, cheap, used Sham Shui Po phone with no voice mail that is only ever turned on during R hours, and otherwise never answer it or have it on.
- Never misread your roster.
- Know your CoS, RPs and FTLs for when you must answer during R days.
- There is always another guy willing to sacrifice his time off, leisure activities, personal hobbies, gym time, family time, girlfriend time, sleep time and fun to "help out" usually for no extra pay but rarely for much extra and almost never enough to compensate (if they don't manipulate it away from you later). So, let other people (workaholics, G day workers, phone answerers, brown nosers, "helpers") stress out, reschedule their lives and work their butts off for overtime while you enjoy your disruption-free published roster, published days off and personal plans that don't change.
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There is a lot to be said for Skillets and Ovals way of dealing with the roster changes.
For those newer folks in CX our previous roster practices was based on a one year period with virtually zero chance of EFP. PX and simulator was pretty much unlimited depending on your base and attracted peanuts if exceeding the annual credit. Roster practices has always been a topic of major disagreement between the company and the pilots and it culminated in 49 of our colleagues being fired in 2001. When an opportunity to move to a monthly credit system presented itself we as a group had to consider long and hard as to its suitability. At the end of the day, we all voted and decided a monthly system with deficiencies was better than a yearly system which was unilaterally implemented by the company several years earlier.
No doubt the RP's are in dire need of an overhaul to be more fair. Certainly the PX credit, credit for leave, reserve rules, use of O days and management of EFP need a lot of work and I hope all the whiners filled in the HKAOA survey to be considered.
For those newer folks in CX our previous roster practices was based on a one year period with virtually zero chance of EFP. PX and simulator was pretty much unlimited depending on your base and attracted peanuts if exceeding the annual credit. Roster practices has always been a topic of major disagreement between the company and the pilots and it culminated in 49 of our colleagues being fired in 2001. When an opportunity to move to a monthly credit system presented itself we as a group had to consider long and hard as to its suitability. At the end of the day, we all voted and decided a monthly system with deficiencies was better than a yearly system which was unilaterally implemented by the company several years earlier.
No doubt the RP's are in dire need of an overhaul to be more fair. Certainly the PX credit, credit for leave, reserve rules, use of O days and management of EFP need a lot of work and I hope all the whiners filled in the HKAOA survey to be considered.
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The truth is
Too many do not call unfit when needed. CC can and will change your roster at will and you can try and fight and argue to no avail.
Many more are not willing to file a grievance over COS violations. Sadly, the AOA has not been the greatest at defending our contracts. Where is the PX on Freighter deal? Still no word. COS 08, SLS, R for free are only a few of the things we have given up. How about the recent tax debacle? Hows that for a contract and then being told, don't contact the company!
CC do NOT care about your contract as NO-ONE will absolutley refuse a duty! Acknowledging roster changes only works for so long as eventually they get you on the way back with a call to 8929.
The advice here is just but it will take a lot more. If crew bombard CX with grievances and sickness and unfits, It may change and I say MAY! It takes a village and CX pilots do not have a village, we have sporadic groups of those that will and those that won't.
The only other thing is EVERYONE needs to start saying NO! That just isnt going to happen and they know it.
Sucks I know. Try and make the best of the Holidays.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Many more are not willing to file a grievance over COS violations. Sadly, the AOA has not been the greatest at defending our contracts. Where is the PX on Freighter deal? Still no word. COS 08, SLS, R for free are only a few of the things we have given up. How about the recent tax debacle? Hows that for a contract and then being told, don't contact the company!
CC do NOT care about your contract as NO-ONE will absolutley refuse a duty! Acknowledging roster changes only works for so long as eventually they get you on the way back with a call to 8929.
The advice here is just but it will take a lot more. If crew bombard CX with grievances and sickness and unfits, It may change and I say MAY! It takes a village and CX pilots do not have a village, we have sporadic groups of those that will and those that won't.
The only other thing is EVERYONE needs to start saying NO! That just isnt going to happen and they know it.
Sucks I know. Try and make the best of the Holidays.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
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To continue the history lesson. CoS 94 was introduced unilaterally by a previous DFO, initials GC. In it was the basis of our protection in that one had to OPT IN to be rostered for more than 700 productive (simplistically block) hours. If one did not OPT IN then once one had completed 700 productive hours one became a pumpkin and took the rest of the 'year' off.
The 'productive' year was linked to one's birth month - a fact that worked wonders for those with birthdays at peak leave periods. A friend of mine had a birthday in January. He consistently bid for, and got, leave in Jan and as a BTC had run out of hours by end of Nov. He then decamped to YVR (Whistler) for 3 months R&R. In addition, 5-4-3 ( 5 days off between ULR) protection gave adequate rest protection. What was initially viewed as a disaster by crews actually became a crew friendly tool. And if one opted for more work the excess pay was realistic.
By opting for an OPT IN for excess flying hours rather than OPT OUT from excess flying hours the DFO of the day protected his crews from the 'bean counter' pressure that he was under. The system was rumbled and we went on to all the other CoS / rostering practices that have dogged us since.
Have a Happy New Year
The 'productive' year was linked to one's birth month - a fact that worked wonders for those with birthdays at peak leave periods. A friend of mine had a birthday in January. He consistently bid for, and got, leave in Jan and as a BTC had run out of hours by end of Nov. He then decamped to YVR (Whistler) for 3 months R&R. In addition, 5-4-3 ( 5 days off between ULR) protection gave adequate rest protection. What was initially viewed as a disaster by crews actually became a crew friendly tool. And if one opted for more work the excess pay was realistic.
By opting for an OPT IN for excess flying hours rather than OPT OUT from excess flying hours the DFO of the day protected his crews from the 'bean counter' pressure that he was under. The system was rumbled and we went on to all the other CoS / rostering practices that have dogged us since.
Have a Happy New Year
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Oer try this
Show up en masse at the next pilot auditorium meeting and BE HEARD. Fill the box in despatch with as many letters as you can. Try not to be angry. Be rationale and have good suggestions. If you go or write screaming and yelling then we will not be taken seriously.
You can always write or stop the CEO. Fill your fleet offices, the DFO and GMA with complaints. And if you harrass the heck out of Hoyland, that would get there attention I bet.
If we just rant and rave here, nothing will change.
WE MUST COMPLAIN TO THE AOA. They are letting us down.
You can always write or stop the CEO. Fill your fleet offices, the DFO and GMA with complaints. And if you harrass the heck out of Hoyland, that would get there attention I bet.
If we just rant and rave here, nothing will change.
WE MUST COMPLAIN TO THE AOA. They are letting us down.
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A few weeks ago at dispatch I heard the 747 cp in conversation with a capt. who had just at sign in time at dispatch been told by cc that he now is px'ing on the flight he was supposed to work and another capt. is now working it. He was understandably pissed off and seeing the cp at dispatch with another management pilot going out to fly a -800 he approached and complained about this and pointed out how this reduces his overtime and is becoming a pattern for him. The response from the cp was that yes, good, and that it was his "program" and how cathay pays out some 10000 hours of overtime on the 747 fleet alone and how much it's costing and it has to be managed better etc... Not only this capt. was surprised to hear this coming from this cp but so was the other management pilot with him who tried to interrupt a couple of times to say "you don't really mean that..." "they can't really do..." but nope that's it and that's how it will be was the conversation ender. I almost lost my lunch when I read the last newsletter where the cp says how he has nothing to do with rostering! There where at least three other guys there who heard this.
