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Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.


Old 20th Oct 2011, 14:28
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Is it true that in the last 3 months CX have had a gross intake of 21 pilots.
But have only managed a net growth of 8! (13 Resigned in 3 months)

For every 1.5 naive pilot that walks in 1 is leaving.

Something is wrong and something tells me it will starting getting worse!
Denial! Lacking common "decency" is something our managers lack.

This part of the world - Money is king for those in power!

CX Most admired my F(*Ars!@

Last edited by crewsunite; 21st Oct 2011 at 00:00.
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Old 20th Oct 2011, 18:55
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It's a win win situation. The pilot leaves for greener pastures(now more than ever considering our degradated situation) and the company gets to replace him/her with much cheaper dudes in the future. Personnally I think training costs are negligible for Cx, so having a guy working here too long is more of a cost than an asset for them,forget investment,so believe me guys , resigning Pilots is company laughing.

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Old 20th Oct 2011, 19:49
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Absolutely right GIPILOT.
Loyal pilots = incremental payscales, unions, feelings of 'ownership', restrictive work practices etc.

Transient pilots = fixed low salary scales, no benefits, TRAINING BONDS, hire and fire.

Welcome to Ruinair.
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Old 21st Oct 2011, 00:23
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Except that it takes time to train new pilots and with aircraft arriving steadily over the next 5 years I doubt the company will be laughing while parking planes.
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Old 21st Oct 2011, 04:22
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The only time it costs to train new pilots is during the sims and during the flying when a safety pilot is required. After that, there is absolutely no difference between having a training captain in the left seat and a trainee in the right and having a line captain in the left seat and a line first officer in the right.
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Old 21st Oct 2011, 04:40
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O3H, you're confusing the issue with reality. In some accountants & managers minds, training costs are incurred whilst sucking up the air whilst walking the street. kaching!
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Old 21st Oct 2011, 09:51
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Exactly my point Krone.

Guys just imagine you having a business and you had to pay all this housing plus a piece of pension plus insurance plus God knows whatever else, wouldn't u want to have a bunch of guys that will do the exact exact same job but without the housing? Or schooling fees etc etc?

Our management knows what pilots are as opposed to cabin attendants. We are an extremely motivated bunch that see flying more as a hobby/passion/life than a job.So they know they can treat us as dogs but we will still fly the airplane as good as we possibly can and still would like to have a better flight as the day before etc etc ,cause that is what we do for the love of flying. Any one saying that is not true is just full of sh!t

I mean look at Ryanair or Easyjet(their terms and conditions are lightyears worst) Some guys here are talking about parking airplanes and stuff, do you see any Ryanair airplane parked? Or Easyjet aircraft parked? No. The same will happen here.

People talking about short on crews , there is no shortage of crews mate, do you see any flights cancelled? Do you hear anywhere in the world that any airline can't grow cause they don't have pilots? Damn even Emirates with their 900 airplane orders are easily rejecting pilots.

And again guys, quit talking about them orders. 90% of them are replacements this airline is neither a middle eastern carrier nor a mainland chinese one, we are not growing massively at all and command is still as far behind the horizon ,so quit using this airplanes coming in thing cause they will definitely have enough people to crew them, and cheap too.

If you just put all this in your mind, you will have a massive peace of mind and none of these Cx stunts will surprise nor irritate you.

Peace My Flying Brothers

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Old 21st Oct 2011, 09:51
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Those turnover numbers look unlikely to me.

A source told me recently that intake was >40 over the past 3 months.

I have no idea about attrition, but historically it has averaged 1% to 5% over the past couple of decades (with "hiccups" in 1999 with VSS and 2001 with the 49ers).

The highest turnover I can recall was a few years ago (2007??), with approximately 110 pilots leaving in one year. The total pilot body was about 2200 at the time, so this would be a loss of 5%.

I can remember attending a briefing at the time where a lady from recruitment stated that the pilot recruitment target for that year was approximately 200. The question as to whether recruitment targets factored in attrition, was neatly dodged. This was all starting to bite, when sadly Oasis folded...

I think the loss rate at that time was close to 10% across the road, which resulted in a shake-up and the demise of KA Cargo etc.
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Old 21st Oct 2011, 13:47
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So far this year:

NET GROWTH has been 21 Pilots in 10 months.
CX gained 2 Pilots per month. When they were targeting 200/12 = 17 pm.
88% behind target, if ur 200 aim is correct.

Net Growth 21/2500 < 0.8% Very low uptake.

Attrition this year: 33/2500 = 1.3% Low at 3.3pm but increasing.

Heard a rumor today that quite a sizable chunk will resign in Dec/Jan before the new tax year.


Motivation: Besides being professional and self pride. The cherry on top type synergy required in a premium carrier comes from more than just financial rewards. It comes from "thinking your in the best team" or being in the "team most aspire to be in"

IE How your managers tread you = person not a number, Planes, rosters, benefits, salaries, housing, girls, etc..

But most of all once you have a family its game over and it time to be serious. Life back in ones home country has better prospects than being messed around by the insecurities of our middle management.

Esp Now that Basings are not available anymore and they are trying there luck at reducing HK expat benefits. Those on bases need to pay HK tax.

Well the truth is those that are serious about having a life are seriously looking at moving. Those that are 50 / 50 may in time find that other very good opportunities may dry up. I just hope that we'll all have some clarity in a few months or maybe it'll be just another shade of grey as always.

But doing nothing is silly as Pilot wages just don't seem to be keeping up with inflation. Let alone all the other bull we put up with..

I think we are reaching another watershed / turning point in this career.
Those with lateral thinking & abilities elsewhere + will power will be taking some attention away from there work to focusing on backups.

Making way for youngsters with a flare for gadgets & "narrow mindedness / experience" who's personalities can be more easily molded by corporate cultures. Who's integrity will allow safety to play second fiddle to commercial pressures.

Good luck to the traveling public - not that they care as long as the tickets are cheap the service is good and they not on that AF plane, then good to go!

With a Net growth of 0.8% CX is struggling and there is no doubt that a time bomb has started. CX are in denial. But it does not matter much my guess is Swire will offload shares to Air China during the next up turn. In a similar way the Swires changed up the Swire holding / properties recently.

Then the new game will take place and not a game I or many others will want to be part of..

So me thinks these attrition figures are just a trickle of the beginning of a flood.

Only time will tell! In the mean time the war is not over and be smart in choosing your artillery. Be proud of this Profession and stand fast to our currently high but fragile standards / rewards.
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Old 24th Oct 2011, 23:09
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Just to add to the big picture. Net increase +47 in 3 years, 1.3/mth.
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