Welcome back pollution :(

[too hard]

Thank you cxorcist for your interpretation of the Jesus quote from your bible and yes, I did read the entire passage.

Luke 19 verse 27

"As for my enemies who don't want me as their king, bring them here and slaughter them before me".

I welcome any Christian or biblical scholar to correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that Jesus, the Holy Ghost, and the Father are all the one entity i.e., the Holy Trinity. I understand that the above quote from the gospel of Luke is a parable and Jesus is only quoting what his father is saying as the ultimate judge. As Jesus is meant to be God too, does that not mean that he (Jesus) is really saying how he would treat his enemies also, or is this one of those good cop bad cop routines

I must admit that I have enjoyed this discussion immensely. I was brought up and educated as a Catholic (one of the many thousands of denominations of Christianity) from birth and have studied most of the religions of the world. Often references are made by religious people to their own bible to justify their faith and belief. The fact that I have studied the Judean Christian Bible so closely is one of the main reasons that I am now an atheist.

[Fareastdriver]

The sales pitch for rabbis, imans, priests and all the rest is:

Keep me in clover and I promise you eternal life.

[Iron Skillet]

ATY/WC,

Just because you don't like direct, rational, logical points being made does not indicate anything about my emotional state and it does not make me angry to read your nonsense or respond to it. However, it is rather annoying and ridiculous to waste time talking to brainwashed people who are incapable of seeing the obvious.

Once again, a lack of belief in something is not a belief, just as bald is not a hair colour.

Lack of hair: Bald, and there is no hair colour to describe or not.
Atheist: Lack of belief in gods, and there is no faith or belief system to refer to.

Please do not project your anger on me, or pretend that your faith/beliefs/books do the world any good, driving wedges everywhere for no rational reason and stopping progress at every chance.

Can you imagine how brainwashed and foolish a person would be today to teach that the sun goes around the moon? Or that the stars are gods? Or that god lives at the top of the mountain that you're not allowed to climb? Or that angels drop in for visits and chat with people or flap their wings into the ground to create wells? Or that a war god determines the result of battles? Or that little bits of penises need to be cut off to satisfy invisible fairies somewhere? Or that praying generates results any more than a tarot card reader does? Or that the theory of lift is "just a theory" and really, it's god lifting those planes up into the air? Or that evolution is not true and the creation story is?

Think, man! Think! If all the other people following other religions can be sucked in by falsehoods, why oh why can't you see that you have been too?? Think!

I am starting to understand: Believers just don't want to think, and just don't want to find out they are wrong!

So, no more bible stories as fake evidence, no more junk science as evidence, no more "I know it cause I feel it, but just me inside in my heart" delusional crap...Can you show us the video, before and after pictures, an valid experiment, or any other facts or evidence that is not already debunked? Just go ahead, make the list! Just kidding...even if you made one, we all already know it would be baloney, otherwise scientists would already have the same evidence to support things like creation and miracles....Think! It's not there, it doesn't exist, it's not true! Think!

Have a nice day!

[superfrozo]

For those posting that the athiest baby-eaters are (apparently) so "angry" and "vitriolic" in their condemnation of Christian rhetoric, consider this analogy:

In the course of an otherwise innocent, meandering conversation with someone, the subject of 9/11 pops up. You casually remark words to the effect of what terrible destruction was wrought with such simple means... box cutters & plane tickets and such.
"Oh no" says the indignant conversee, "the US gov't was integral to the 9/11 plot - they trained the hijackers, sent Special Forces to wire up the WTCs with demolition charges and then coordinated the whole show".

What do you do? Ignore this person's insane ramblings or do you try and talk some sense into them?

In this instance, you spend 10 minutes patienty explaining the civil engineering behind the WTCs collapse, the essentially impossible task of a controlled demolition of such building size being accomplished unnoticed, or the utterly insurmountable complexities of administering such a grand scale conspiracy involving thousands of people.

You layout your case logically, cite sound references with consistent data that supports the "model" of what you're trying to explain and politely enquire as to whether they have thought critically about the likelihood of their position on this matter, he/she nods politely then says....

"...well how come the Jews all left the buildings 15 minutes before the attack?!?"

Now what do you do?? Of course, you "facepalm", give a curt and instantly dismissive summary of their so-called "logic" and tell them they're a complete fool. I reckon that's where we're at now. There have been many refutations of some absurd claims ("evolution is unproven!", "you need a (Christian of course) god to be good!"... seriously guys, you really believe that?!?) and all that is offered is a subsequent and sometimes more absurd follow up.

When my 5y.o. uses my passport as a colouring book, I don't get "angry", I educate her because she's not yet developed those critical thinking skills needed to identify and understand certain concepts. That patience isn't warranted here - you are all (presumably) professional aviators who must exhibit a high degree of critical thinking in your job.

As IS keeps exhorting: why don't you use those same vitally important critical thinking skills in ALL aspects of your life?!?

Try it tomorrow, you maybe thrilled with the result. I know I would be.

[Sqwak7700]

As IS keeps exhorting: why don't you use those same vitally important critical thinking skills in ALL aspects of your life?!?

That is what makes the whole concept of religious pilots so baffling to me. Every pilot I know has a very thorough understanding of science and physics, it just comes with the turf.

Everything we do in aviation has a reason behind it, a logical explanation; we know how it works, and we can explain it. And most pilots I know are not happy just knowing how, they must always know why as well.

That is why I have a hard time understanding how any pilot can believe something so silly and backwards as religion (whichever one they are born into, they are all just as crazy).

You have to suspend all real-world thinking in order to grasp all the fairy tales and superstition. It just goes against every trait present in a pilot or a rational, smart person. I wouldn't be surprised if the psych eval most airlines give you is wired to weed out religious individuals.

I'm not bothered by what "the masses" think. Those are the same masses that watch Jersey Shore and think Sarah Pahlin is smart. I can understand stupid or uneducated people believing, and they make up the majority. We can discount their view on religion just as quickly as we can discount their view on algebra.

So it is the smart religious people that I don't get. I am assuming that most pilots are somewhat educated and smart, some more than others, but definitely more than the average person. So this leads me to believe that they either have some serious guilt about something they have done, or they have a psychological disorder that allows them to disconnect from reality.

I know it sounds bad but I honestly can't think of any other logical explanation.

[cxorcist]

Too Hard,

I am glad you read the entire passage. It seems you understand the parable as it was intended. Yes, the trinity (three in one) is a difficult but central Christian belief. As such, there will be judgment - make no mistake. It will come from the Trinity, and we will all face it. God is loving and forgiving and all those nice things, but only to a point after which His judgment is absolute. For those whom will die today, that point in today. For those that live until His return, it will be then - whenever that is. I believe He is fair, and we will all be given adequate opportunity to respond to Him. For those with little or no opportunity, I personally believe He will make concessions for that.

Perhaps you might refer to Romans 1:18-31 to understand Paul's take on our responsibility to God. It was written almost 2000 years ago, but is quite applicable today.

Belief through fear is not God's intent, but some in the church have allowed this concept to overshadow the life saving grace that Jesus' death purchased for us, if we will only accept it. The Catholics are notorious for turning young people away from the church this way, so I am not surprised by what you write. However, there is truth in the book so many on here seek to discredit. If I were you, I would not give up on it. Keep seeking and you will find Him - Jeremiah 29:13. Read passages in context and ask questions of those you believe qualified to answer. It might be the best thing you ever do.

CXorcist

[cxorcist]

Skillet,

I was not trying to change the subject. I think Josephus is quite relevant because it corroborates, to some degree, what is written in the gospels despite that fact that he was a Pharisee (historical enemies of Jesus) and sympathetic to the Roman Empire (which crucified Him). You challenge the whole premise of the Bible not only as God's word, but as an historical document. I think you are foolhardy to do so. I challenge you to point out one thing written in the Bible which has been scientifically or factually proven to be false. Use archaeology or whatever method you desire...

When analyzed as a text of the antiquities, the Bible has far greater documentary credibility than widely accepted historical documents like Tacitus' Annals of Imperial Rome from 116AD or Homer's Iliad almost a thousand years earlier. By this I mean the gap between composition and the production of manuscripts; and the number, similarity, and completeness of the manuscripts. So by your metric, we have no documentary evidence supporting history from this time period. Frankly, that is ridiculous.

Just because I do not respond to each of your points does not mean I can't. It simply means that I chose not to because I do not share your same zeal for the topic. I have a life and responsibilities outside internet forums which are of far more importance to me. My only incentive for posting here is the hope that a snippet of what I write will resonate with readers whom are uncertain about where they stand. I am certainly not trying to convert you or win an argument with you.

Skillet, I know exactly who you are and respect you as a thinker, but I also know that you make the fatal flaw (you accuse others of making) which is to draw conclusions and then seek out evidence to support them. As an author, you are not very respected in your field, even by other published atheists. I noticed your book reviews. So you have been reduced to defending your positions online and attacking much lesser opponents by bullying them with your "brilliance". I don't think you will find Hitchens and Dawkins doing this.

CXorcist

PS - I loved your list about how Christianity adversely affects you. I have not laughed that hard in a while. Some of your points are legitimate like the tax revenue complaint. Others, like foreskins being cut, are hilarious. I wish I still had mine in hopes that it would give my wife more pleasure. On the other hand, the Jews were right that a circumcized penis is cleaner and less likely to spread disease, as well as looking more handsome.

[Air Profit]

Squak. You crack me up, you really do. Your only conclusion is that pilots who are believers must have a psychological disorder...? Really....? I suppose the NASA astronauts (most of them test pilots, all highly educated) who landed on the moon and have subsequently declared their belief in God are mentally ill? All the numerous leading politicians who declare their faith are mentally ill? Numerous notable scientists throughout history that have declared their faith mentally ill? Top business leaders throughout the world who declare their faith mentally ill? Literally billions of fellow human beings throughout the past 2000 years mentally ill? Ok, I see you have used the atheist's typically rigorous thought process to reach that conclusion.

Why don't you try and explain the conversion of Saul (Paul), a Roman citizen who was the Christians implacable enemy during the early church, until he was struck down on the road to Damascus (he was proceeding there to arrest Christians and condemn them to death, the job he was charged to do by the Roman empire). He then became the Christian church's greatest apostle, risking his life (and eventually losing it) to spread the gospel to the early church in defiance of the Roman empire and the Jewish authorities. A man who held a high place in Roman society gave it all up to spread the gospel of Jesus. His life and works are historical facts. Let me guess....psychological disorder..?

[Sqwak7700]

Why don't you try and explain the conversion of Saul (Paul)

Again, something from your big book of fairy tales in never-never-land. You are the only one who gives credit to this fantasy book, rational thinkers don't. Do I need to quote my diary again?

Literally billions of fellow human beings throughout the past 2000 years mentally ill?

Grossly exaggerated statement. It also ignores the fact that most people from that far back, no matter how smart, would be considered quite backwards by today's standards. For example, Thomas Jefferson, considered by many to be quite intelligent would probably shock most people with his views on slavery and would be quite out of place in today's thinking.

All the numerous leading politicians who declare their faith are mentally ill?

Most politicians align themselves with whatever gets them elected. Some, just happen to believe in this non-sense of religion, but most use it as a way to gain votes from the masses. That is why even though most politicians in the US are Christian, they won't publicly come out and discredit other religions - even though as a devout Christian they should.

As a side note: The fact that you even mention politicians as an example makes me question my statement that all pilots are relatively smart (are you a pilot or a wannabe?)

Top business leaders throughout the world who declare their faith mentally ill?

Again, the same business leaders that have destroyed industry in exchange for short-term gain, moving jobs to third world locations in order to increase their multi-billion dollar bonuses?

OK, I'll give you that one, they fit the Christian profile quite well ... :roll eyes:

I stand by my comments, and I believe that most people do as well. They probably just aren't willing to accept it, but down inside they know it is true. They don't go around believing in imaginary friends. They'll label themselves to some brand of crazy, but when the chips are down, they don't place any stock in all that garbage and rely on logic and common sense.

I bet even you are one of these people. Have you ever been to the doctor? Did you prepare for your airline interviews? Do you carry alternate fuel? Do you work on Sundays? If you were a true follower then you would depend on your imaginary friend to sort all these things out, wouldn't you? After all, why go to the doctor or study for an interview if it is only fighting "god's will"? What is the need for alternate fuel, isn't that going against god's will that you should not land at your destination?

You are lying to us Air Profit. That really doesn't bother me, people lie to me all the time trying to sell me stuff. That has been around as long as we have, I fully subscribe to the "buyer beware" and "there is an idiot born every minute" mentality. The sad part is that you are lying to yourself and you disguise it with psychotic selective rationalization that would make a politician proud.

That is not faith, it is just plain delusion.

[Air Profit]

...you're starting to lose it a bit Sqwak. Basically, you have decided you can speak for everyone I mentioned, completely discrediting their own statements as to their faith. You really aren't worth bothering any more time on. There are other fellow beings who at least have enough sense to admit that there are aspects of their existence that require a better answer than the 'its all hopeless and without meaning' position that you take. Regardless of what you think or state, you had better hope you are right and I am wrong. God does not take lightly those who help turn other people away from Him.

[Sqwak7700]

God does not take lightly those who help turn other people away from Him.

I have a strategy. If upon dying it turns out that I am wrong, I will ask for forgiveness and all will be forgiven, as per your book. I will then have my seat right next to you, isn't it great?

...you're starting to lose it a bit Sqwak. Basically, you have decided you can speak for everyone I mentioned, completely discrediting their own statements as to their faith.

Actually, I am quite rational and calm. The only one not posting rationally is you. You fail to answer any of the questions here, and you have failed at rebutting any of the arguments here. Your answer for everything boils down to fairy tales and imaginary friends. Like I said earlier, that is all you have left to defend your cults. How can you answer logically when your argument is illogical?

You can't, and you and others have failed to do so. That is why it reeks of desperation. You are down to your last bullet and you, as well as everybody else, knows it is a blank. Pathetic really.

[Air Profit]

Sqwak, If Jesus himself appeared in front of you to explain things I doubt you would accept it... As for 'upon dying you would ask for forgiveness'.....sorry, doesn't work that way. Once your time in the physical realm ends, your fate in the eternal spiritual realm is already sealed. The Bible speaks quite clearly about those who 'harden their hearts against God'. You are demonstrating that in a very convincing fashion. We all make our choices in this lifetime, and you and I have both made ours.

[water check]

Squak, AP is right, you are losing it. A question: Regardless of the validity of Christianity, how do you explain that approximately 88% of the worlds population believe in some form or god or another.

It seems that making the claim that there is no God is putting you at odds with the vast majority of your worlds peoples. I wonder what it is that they sense that you seem to be blind to? You need to do a bit more inner searching of your soul.

[Iron Skillet]

Truth in the book? Think!

Let's say I write a story about HKIA, and in it I list the Airport Express schedule, the row in which Emirates check in is positioned, the menu of Popeye's chicken place, the phone number for the police station, the laws applicable to immigration, the rules about getting through security screening, the speed limit on airport roads, and the requirements to obtain an airport security pass to get a job, as well as a few principles of good airmanship as well as a few good service tips for the waiters at the steak joint...and then tell you that up in the roof there is an invisible pink unicorn flying around, keeping an eye on all the passengers and workers, judging all their actions and thoughts 24/7, and it is the unicorn that decides whether your boarding pass gets you on the plane or not. Just like the bible, or any book, having a few facts about reality included (war dates, kings' names, etc.) has nothing to do with the bogus superstitious god or unicorn or ghosts or sons of ghosts....understand? Think!

Saying the Earth is flat 100 times and was flattened by a big strong invisible non-speaking power source, and writing a book about it that includes some details about the speed of light, the birthday of Micheal Jackson, the current mayor of Vienna, etc., has nothing to do with the Earth flatness....it just proves the writer is nuts. Think!

Just because the bible has some correct historical details, a few reasonable moral stories that apply to virtually all groups of people and religion books (e.g. don't kill people, don't steal stuff, be nice, etc.) has nothing to do with all the stuff about god and son of god and ghost of god and virgin birth and death doesn't count and ask anything to get it and lay hands to heal and....any of the rest of the fake, imaginary stuff stuff.

Just because other books are more wrong about historical facts does not add any value to the bible's stories inventing the superstitions of the religion contained within it. Just because other books have stupid things written in them does not mean the bible doesn't. Etc. Refer to the list of logical fallacies...

No, as mentioned earlier, I will not debate science with a creationist for the same reason that I will not debate the planets in our solar system with a flat Earthist or try to explain the theory of lift to a 2-year-old.

Like I said earlier, the content of the bible is as irrelevant to me as the content of the koran is irrelevant to both me and you (and 1000's of other books you dismiss as bogus, as I do). A compilation of stories in a book is not evidence of anything. This is why real evidence is corroborated with reliable and verifiable references, facts and experiments, and anyone can repeat the experiment for themselves and is free to prove something wrong.

Whether so-and-so was the son of so-and-so and where such-and-such a king or mountain was is irrelevant: The point I am making is that the invention of a supernatural power in a book does not mean anything, particularly when this superpower never shows up, never goes on TV, never talks to anyone who has a video camera, and never does anything that would not have happened anyway, or in the case of healing and other miracles, for which there is not a rational, real, evidence-based actual explanation (like medicine, illusions, chemistry, etc.). If I write a book with a new god, and 2000 years from now people read it and follow the stuff in there, telling them to cut their ears off, bow before cats, eat no ketchup, and do all kids of other pointless things, while correctly stating the number of gold medals won by France in the Berlin Olympics, does that mean the story is true? Think!

As for cutting body parts off for cleanliness, I wonder why the good book does not require all girls to have their genital labia removed to assist with their hygiene as well. Perhaps if we cut off our noses, nobody would have dried snot to remove from there either? It can get mighty sweaty under breasts on a hot day, so why not cut those off as well? How about food getting stuck between the teeth, shall we remove every second tooth to prevent that - or did scientists determine the proper brushing and flossing were the solution? Educating people about hygiene is the solution, not the removal of body parts in accordance with Bronze Age nonsense stories. Think!

As for your assumption about who I am, books, etc., your trend of coming to incorrect conclusions with no evidence continues beyond religion.

Again, the biblical reasons for circumcision have nothing to do with medical ones, for those who don't get infected or damages penises from the procedure that is almost universally dismissed as unnecessary by medical science. The religious/bible reasons are purely about an imaginary covenant to be made with the god the book made up requiring the circumcision for the covenant to be made. Oh, man, think!!! Cutting off dick parts is needed to make god happy and prove your love, are you serious? Think!

As for the debatable statistic that 88% of people are religious, and why so many, the answer is simple: Most likely, evolution. Evolution has no purpose, no goal, no nothing, it just is, same as the force of gravity just is, or the wavelength range of blue light just is.

Why is nobody complaining about the speed of light? Have you measured it? Have you seen it? Why do you believe the scientists have figured it out? How do you know? Because the evidence is overwhelming, and there is no counter evidence, and all the formula and predictions and experiments support the conclusion. Just like invisible superpowers, right? Think!

What if the statistic was 98% of Saudi Arabians are Muslims, so when your plane lands in Jeddah, why can't you see there is something wrong with you unless you are Muslim? Just because we are surrounded by ignorant foolishness of the gullible, brainwashed by centuries of indoctrination embedded in our governments, schools, laws, parenting, social traditions, statues, buildings, etc., does not add any validity to them, it just means the delusion is really widespread. Hence the problem! Think!

Enough for today! Have a nice day!

[Busbert]

Religious Pilots

Hey it's OK to have religious pilots. I mean guess who is always first on the scene of an accident - if praying helps, each to their own. There would be a lot more on their knees praying for divine intervention before each flight if they knew the state that CX Engineering is in at the moment

[yokebearer]

Sqwak7700 actually makes a valid point.

The reality is that the vast majority of highly educated people - and especially scientists - are not religious.

Air Profit and friends can go on about the many who have declared their belief - but keep in mind for every famous scientist who declares his belief there's a hundred who don't.

Many stay quiet about their atheism - especially in America where research grants and political votes determine your future.... - I don't think I have to explain this bit.

[arse]

[arse]

[superfrozo]

Classic!!

And with one simple picture, @rse has nailed (in a non-crucifixion sense) the topic!