Non-Standard!
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 95
Likes: 19
From: On a few nerves apparently
Non-Standard!
Non-Standard! That most idiotic of stupid utterances one can make in the cockpit of an aircraft which seems to never go away at cx. It's a nasty habit of especially the checkers and checker wannabes. First of all exactly where the F'k does it say in any of our manuals that you can utter those words out of your butt and proceed to do something outside the sop, during normal operations? Is this an airline or a circus? The only thing more stupid to come out of a pilot's mouth may be the phrase "watch this"! And why are you surprised by my challenge and the conflict that ensues? Who's in charge of these non-standard checkers who see no problem with announcing out loud on the CVR that they intend to intentionally do something non-standard for the accident investigation to hang their hat on when something nasty happens?
The only thing consistent about this operation is the inconsistency.
The only thing consistent about this operation is the inconsistency.
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 601
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From: Hong Kong
The use of the term "non-standard" is simply a part of communication. If you would normally, for example, select flap 2 before the gear but you decide it's more appropriate to do it the other way around, then the phrase would indicate to the other pilot that you haven't forgotten the flap. It just helps the PM know what you're thinking, to avoid any "conflict that might ensue" and for him to do what he's asked rather than entering a debate about whether the SOP states you should put the flap out first.
Conversely, instead of "non-standard", you could say, "I think we're a bit fast and with this tailwind/weight combination and with the prospect of the wind changing abruptly here as it often does in TPE, I think I'll take the gear before the flap, what do you think?"
No, on balance, I think non-standard sums it up nicely.
STP
Conversely, instead of "non-standard", you could say, "I think we're a bit fast and with this tailwind/weight combination and with the prospect of the wind changing abruptly here as it often does in TPE, I think I'll take the gear before the flap, what do you think?"
No, on balance, I think non-standard sums it up nicely.
STP
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 55
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From: Vancouver
Listen, much of what we say in the cockpit is for a$$-covering (as much as anything else) in the unlikely event that something unfortold (sic) happens and the Company pulls the CVR tapes. We can argue until we are blue in the face about what should and shouldn't be said in the flight deck. At the end of the day who cares as long as the lines of communication are clear and effective. If one can't live with saying 'check', 'confirm(ed)' all day long then they are in the wrong job.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 175
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From: same place
If we all know the standard way, then why verbalise that it's non standard, it's all a bit noddy. You would have to say "non standard, non standard, gear down", because the very act of saying non standard is by definition non standard. 
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 148
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From: on thin ice
Yo Vendetta boy, we have more hours in a left bank than you have total so how about:
http://pics.livejournal.com/twoflower/pic/00023gph
hope the cut and paste thing works.
http://pics.livejournal.com/twoflower/pic/00023gph
hope the cut and paste thing works.
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,167
Likes: 2
From: Australia
Yep, stop bitching people, I'm agreeing with STP and Flying Phoenix.
It's not rocket science fellas and it does work.
Find something else to blame on your bad ERAS reports will ya, some of us cope with the system just fine as it is.
It's not rocket science fellas and it does work.
Find something else to blame on your bad ERAS reports will ya, some of us cope with the system just fine as it is.
Last edited by nitpicker330; 19th June 2011 at 23:12.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 95
Likes: 19
From: On a few nerves apparently
1) I have no problem uttering whatever word or phrase company puts in the manual as a "standard callout". I have no idea what mouth music is. Show me ONE place in any of our manuals the words "mouth music" are mentioned.
2) Show me ONE place in any of our manuals where it says "flaps 20, gear down, ..." (in that order) and I'll show you many places where it says "gear down, flaps 20, ..." (in that order). Are you ignorant of the sop, illiterate and can't read, or have you been doing it the non-standard way for so long that you actually think that your delusion is now reality? If you read the only book that mentions maneuver profiles (FCTM) it says "gear down, F20,..." both in profile and text, for all approach/landings. So according to the book, "F20, gear down" IS the non-standard way.
3) In our operation, overloading the PF at the cost of not overloading the PM is very obviously the main aim. As such, by announcing that you're about to do something unexpected is the best way to create confusion and overload for the PM and that goes against any positive aim "communication" is meant to achieve.
4) toss parker... "see how it fly's" !! Are you serious chap? Are you illiterate? You must be a checker. I have a nice collection of hilarious miss-spelling and miss-grammar mistakes in my permanent record by various cx checkers. They really should have a spell/grammar checker in the ERAS system for the essay writer wannabes among us. Or a writing class if you want to do it right.
And to be clear, I really don't give a sh!t how you do it or what you do. Airmanship, Scaremanship... whatever. The only thing consistent around here is inconsistency and we're all used to it. It's the moronic phrases people literally pull out of their a$$ that's beyond stupid and annoying.
2) Show me ONE place in any of our manuals where it says "flaps 20, gear down, ..." (in that order) and I'll show you many places where it says "gear down, flaps 20, ..." (in that order). Are you ignorant of the sop, illiterate and can't read, or have you been doing it the non-standard way for so long that you actually think that your delusion is now reality? If you read the only book that mentions maneuver profiles (FCTM) it says "gear down, F20,..." both in profile and text, for all approach/landings. So according to the book, "F20, gear down" IS the non-standard way.
3) In our operation, overloading the PF at the cost of not overloading the PM is very obviously the main aim. As such, by announcing that you're about to do something unexpected is the best way to create confusion and overload for the PM and that goes against any positive aim "communication" is meant to achieve.
4) toss parker... "see how it fly's" !! Are you serious chap? Are you illiterate? You must be a checker. I have a nice collection of hilarious miss-spelling and miss-grammar mistakes in my permanent record by various cx checkers. They really should have a spell/grammar checker in the ERAS system for the essay writer wannabes among us. Or a writing class if you want to do it right.
And to be clear, I really don't give a sh!t how you do it or what you do. Airmanship, Scaremanship... whatever. The only thing consistent around here is inconsistency and we're all used to it. It's the moronic phrases people literally pull out of their a$$ that's beyond stupid and annoying.
Last edited by VforVENDETTA; 20th June 2011 at 11:53.
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 0
Likes: 1
From: Polar Route
Max,
Your wait is over, but I'm with you and STP on this one. I'll spare you the "exceptional reasoning" though. All I will write is that flying is mostly math and science, but still a bit of an art. With good airmanship and situational awareness, I appreciate and respect aerial artists.
CXorcist
Your wait is over, but I'm with you and STP on this one. I'll spare you the "exceptional reasoning" though
. All I will write is that flying is mostly math and science, but still a bit of an art. With good airmanship and situational awareness, I appreciate and respect aerial artists.CXorcist
Last edited by cxorcist; 20th June 2011 at 17:33. Reason: Grammatical Error
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
From: Hong Kong
Let me get this straight...
@Vfor
You're the one who started this thread so, clearly, you have thought about this travesty long and hard, otherwise, why the angst?
You say:
I would submit that the use of the phrase is commonplace in our profession and needs neither explanation nor verification of its usage. To suggest otherwise is simply pedanticism - something which you patently dislike.
However, you go on to say:
I presume you are on one of the Boeing fleets due to your example but that in itself is immaterial. Whatever the case may be though, one of 2 things happen on your flights when you are PF, namely either:
a. You abide by convention and put the gear down after flap 20 (if that's the norm) or;
b. You put the gear down before flap 20, thus potentially causing confusion in the flight deck at a relatively low altitude, potentially leading to a "challenge and the conflict that might ensue" (I've paraphrased here for simplification) .
The latter is not an example of good airmanship in my humble opinion.
You go on to say:
I disagree with this statement 100%.
Now I have to say, this one really tickled me. You accuse Toss Parker of being illiterate (which is debatable but that's not the point) and you yourself go on to say:
Now, either you're a very funny person or you too have little grasp of the English language. "Miss-spelling" should be misspelling and there is no such term as "miss-grammar." I think what you were trying to say is "grammatical errors" (as you've so clearly demonstrated) but that's as may be.
Then you go on to say:
If that is indeed the case, then what's the point of this thread?
Finally you say:
When you say "literally" do you mean that before someone says, for sake of discussion, "non-standard" that they actually pull those phrases from their anuses, as one might from a fortune cookie, or are you using hyperbole?
STP
You're the one who started this thread so, clearly, you have thought about this travesty long and hard, otherwise, why the angst?
You say:
I have no idea what mouth music is. Show me ONE place in any of our manuals the words "mouth music" are mentioned.
However, you go on to say:
So according to the book, "F20, gear down" IS the non-standard way.
a. You abide by convention and put the gear down after flap 20 (if that's the norm) or;
b. You put the gear down before flap 20, thus potentially causing confusion in the flight deck at a relatively low altitude, potentially leading to a "challenge and the conflict that might ensue" (I've paraphrased here for simplification) .
The latter is not an example of good airmanship in my humble opinion.
You go on to say:
3) In our operation, overloading the PF at the cost of not overloading the PM is very obviously the main aim. As such, by announcing that you're about to do something unexpected is the best way to create confusion and overload for the PM and that goes against any positive aim "communication" is meant to achieve.
Now I have to say, this one really tickled me. You accuse Toss Parker of being illiterate (which is debatable but that's not the point) and you yourself go on to say:
I have a nice collection of hilarious miss-spelling and miss-grammar mistakes
Then you go on to say:
And to be clear, I really don't give a sh!t how you do it or what you do
Finally you say:
It's the moronic phrases people literally (my highlighting) pull out of their a$$ that's beyond stupid and annoying.
STP