Cathay and Cadet "Bonding"

[Brown Nose]

Aztec

I was wondering who was the one idiot out of 60 icadets that accepted the original sh!t deal. Now I don't have to

[aztec2008]

I was wondering too where all the grumpy old gits were coz I never seemed to see them around HK. It appears they were on their computers spouting nonsensical jabberings because their lives have turned to **** after their wives left along with their youth. Thank god you're the minority (and yes, you are the minority as much as you might like to believe otherwise).

[404 Titan]

aztec2008

Thank god you're the minority (and yes, you are the minority as much as you might like to believe otherwise).

And how do you substantiate that comment? The reality is that the vast majority of CX pilots don’t post here, true, but I can assure you the vast majority certainly talk about it and agree 100% with what has been posted here. You can stick your head in the sand if you like but don’t you dare whinge to us as you surely will when things start getting tough. You have been warned.

[Brown Nose]

Aztec

.....a couple of corrections to your post my friend;

Not old
Not grumpy
Not a git
I'm in hong kong when not on a trip
Happily married to my first wife
In fact having a lovely HAPPY Sunday afternoon with my family in a substantial house in a great development provided by Cathay

.....certainly better than you will get on your ****e deal

But if you are happy for all us guys on better deals to stop complaining on your behalf for a better deal for you, so be it.

[Mooseflyer]

1 out of 60 (allegeldy) calling someone else the "minority" - that's funny stuff....

[AnAmusedReader]

Under HKG law one can not bond an employee.

cxlinedriver, sorry but you are wrong. There is no law in HK that says an employer cannot bond an employee. A bond is no more than part of an offer of employment and if the applicant accepts the offer, he is accepting a bond. As always, CX tries to make the sour taste sweet by calling it a forgivable loan.

[JayTee777300]

AZTEC.

Further to what GEH says and to put things back on a more civil footing, because you think B scalers are against the C scalers, you have it all wrong. I only post on here because I am trying to help all new joiners who come after me.

I don't want to be sitting in the seat beside another guy doing exactly the same job as me for less then 1/3rd the pay - which is what this deal constitutes - (as I'm sure A-scalers never found joy in sitting beside B-scalers earning far less) and sure, I do firmly believe that any lower pay-scale will further erode my own conditions so I guess that means we are all in it together (when management are talking pay do you really think they are saying "Gee... how do we bring these C-scale guys up to B-scale level" or is it the other way round "How do we bring these B-scalers down to C-scale level" much like they have done to the A-scalers over time).

This is not B-scalers vs C-scalers. This is current employees trying to protect new joiners, because we have seen the way the company works. Don't get me wrong... this is a great company with many many great aspects. But in some aspects, with regard to pay, conditions and contracts they can be downright sneaky (just ask any SO's who were told when they joined not to worry about all the DEFO's joining after them, as they would receive bypass pay. Only to have the company dispute the very contract it provided them saying that the section that pretty clearly says "you will receive bypass pay for any DEFO that joins after you" doesn't actually mean you will get bypass pay for any DEFO that joins after you! - but this is a topic for another thread).

So please believe me when I say we are on the side of new joiners, and many good people are doing their best to try and protect the interests of all pilots at CX.

This deal is not an improvement in conditions. Say a company pays $10,000USD a month to it's employees... but due to some financial crisis it decides it doesn't need to hire for a while. So it takes advantage of the situation and says it will now only pay $1,000USD a month. No one comes - but the company doesn't care because it doesn't actually need anyone. As things start picking up a couple of months later it says it will pay $2,000USD a month. Would this be considered an improvement in conditions? Sure it's 100% better than last months offer - but it's only 20% of the original pay deal. This is not an improvement, it's just management being tricky and testing the waters to see who is dumb enough to take the offer. (Of course these figures above are just round numbers I have used to illustrate the point)

[JayTee777300]

So... CX have gotten around this issue of bonding by not using the word "bonding", but instead giving you a loan for something that was provided free before.

I note that the offer is pretty light on details. As we know with CX, the devil is in the details, and what their lawyers think they can win later when you end up in court. There are a lot of questions one should ask about this "forgivable loan" before signing on. Alas the answers are only available in the small print - which I haven't seen, CX won't provide to you until you have gone through all the effort of recruiting and have a job offer (this is what I have been told anyway).

An example of some of the questions one should ask, that I have thought of off the top of my head, that think are important (I will say here the loan is $30,000AUD because that is the minimum loan that applies only to the CTT guys. Cadet and Advanced cadet are $80,000AUD and $160,000AUD, respectively, exchange rate dependant):

• So it is compulsory that everyone joining CX take a minimum of a $30k AUD loan to pay for their training, even for the most experienced person? YES
• Do you have to repay it if you leave before 6 years? YES
• If they leave within 6 years is the repayment amount pro-rated or you get stung for the whole lot?
• It mentions that I need to finish a probation period to receive the cash portion, but doesn't mention when the training portion is considered borrowed. Am I up for the $30k from day one of training, or when I am checked to line, or at any other intermediate milestone in the training?
• As it is considered a loan, is there any kind of repayment schedule to show how much is payed off each month? Don't know. It is in the small print.
• What if I choose to leave mid way through training?
• What happens if I fail my training?
• What happens if I fail my upgrade later?
• What happens if CX let me go?
• What happens if I lose my license and CX let me go?
• What happens if I have to leave HK/CX for valid personal/family reasons?
• What happens if I or my wife/family hate the place?
• What happens if my child gets sick in HK and we have to leave? (Yes it happens plenty)
• Do I get anything more for my $30k than a worthless P2X rating? No
• If I leave and have to pay back the $30k, and I don't have $30k in my pocket, what is they repayment schedule? Do I have to pay a lump sum, pay in one year, or do I have the rest of my life to pay it back?

There a lot of unknowns there and that’s just the ones I could think up immediately. And CX are not interested in giving you time to read it and address any of these questions. Now as you know with CX, if it is unwritten or you just don't know, then you have to assume the worst case scenario. For example: is the repayment amount pro-rated with time? Common sense would say yes. But if I don't see it written I would assume worse case of NO - if you quit at 5 years and 6 months CX will come after the whole $30k.

So they have made a complex deal with lots of intricacies and small print (something you should really have a lawyer look at - because effectively signing a contract with a $30,000AUD downside to it for you), then won't show it to you until after you have spent a lot of your own time, money and effort to get the job. Then when they do they say "here it is - you need to sign and reply in a week".

They are relying on the fact that you will hopefully be young and dumb or desperate enough to sign without thinking to hard and then they have you. I have a new term for it - they used to call it "Golden Handcuffs" because they held you here by buying you a house. Now it's just the plain old "Iron Handcuffs" because they aren't actually giving you anything, but if you leave you have to pay them!

Now I understand CX wanting some kind of "Return Of Service" (ROSO) for training a cadet who turns up at the age of 18yo with zero hours. Many other airlines and militaries do that. But now they are trying to do that with experienced guys who have ATPLS and 1500+ hrs, telling them that 10 dutchess hrs, some sim, and a worthless P2X are worth $30,000AUD. Many of these guys have already served another ROSO elsewhere, or paid for their own training out of their own pocket and served their time flying tractor parts around the outback, now to be bonded again with another $30,000 debit hanging over their head.

It is bollox.

[Liam Gallagher]

JT777

All very valid questions that need to be asked; to which I shall add;

- regarding the portion of the "loan" forgiven/ repaid for each year of service, is it declared by CX to HKIRD as taxable income paid to the cadet: if not, why not?

- Should the forgiven loan be deemed taxable income, who will pay such tax, the cadet or the company?

- Should the cadet been deemed liable to pay tax on the forgiven loan, will said cadet be able to afford food?

[Voiceofreason]

Indeed good questions all. Have they actually been asked, and what was the response if so?

[ChinaBeached]

If you go to the other "I'm Naive iCadet" based threads none of the answers will matter. Look at the numbers applying BEFORE this was offered, let alone even knowing the answers to these questions anyway. These kids would still do it for less anyway, hell for free if they thought it would get them into the pants of a jet. They call it "dedicated" and "passionate"....just like a 6 year old is about joining the circus. One child posted that we should all understand his position and appreciate that he is willing to "take one for the team" and "we all have to start somewhere" just like we ("you") all did, and "Can anyone tell me where other cadetships are that I may apply to?". Steam came from my ears. No, I never sold out on myself, colleagues or future you arrogant prat. Want me to write out the application for you, sit the interview for you, or hold your hand as we go onto a thing called the "tarmac"? I worked my arse off, studied my arse off, accumulated more than a few thousand hrs in RHS and LHS of light singles, twins and turboprops in the "hope" of making the grade that CX [then] demanded, only to be told 3 years later a kid will do it for 60% less and with zero flying experience. Didn't reply on that thread as computers don't permit virtual slapping about the forehead. Plus, this comment is more tame than the one I would like to have written.

Others state that the iCadet path is better than FO on a commuter jet in the States or Capt on a ATR in Europe. And, it perhaps it is SHORT TERM. BUT... will the FO RJ job or Capt ATR lead you to better things, better income, better career over 5+ years, going to 20+ years? I dare say it would over a P2X rating and building zero real hours for 3 to 5, maybe 7 years. These guys look short term, not long term and the realities of the decision such as living expenses, family, kids, education, retirement, etc. They look at the smiley offer, not the recent past history of CX's immoral and devious management practices. If it quacks like a duck.....?

Sort of like a $USD 20 cover charge that gives you a "free drink". A free drink you say!!??

This offer & entire situation reminds me of a Simpsons episode where Bart keeps going for the electrified cupcake......