C-scale
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 201
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From: europe
C-scale
Apparently it is common opinion among the AOA GC that lowering t&c for new-joiners eventually kicks back and erodes t&c of the other guys.
However, if you look at CX's policy of the past, they tend to respect "grandfather rights" ( fair enough, since that is what you signed up for ).
For instance, A-Scale continued for many years after it was altered into B-scale for new-joiners. (no pay increase over the years, I know, but it was still A-scale).I am aware that this is a sensitive topic, I am not saying the company treated the case the way it should have, of course!
With hindsight one can probably argue that A-scale wasn't a competitive salary anymore ( from a company perspective), proof would be the vast numbers of people who joined on B-scale afterwards. Would CX still be in the market if they would pay A-scale today ? Almost certainly, we know that pilots wages are only a relative minor part of overall cost. But would it be a reasonable management strategy ? Certainly not, since the pilots market changed and it was possible to recruit on B-scale fairly easily.
Now I understand the company is in the process of introducing a C-scale, basically all new-joiners on no/reduced housing.
Why is this a problem for the presently employed pilots?
Now, do not get me wrong, I would certainly prefer to see everybody on housing, including all the former cadets in CX today, but that is simply not what they signed up for. Also everybody interested in CX today is in the position to make up his/her mind about the current conditions and the suitability of the latter.
I personally would never ever join CX without a housing package, my previous job would have been simply more rewarding ,financially and in regard of time to command. Also, on top of that,CX will always have to pay me a slight premium if working for them requires me to live abroad, period.
But that is just me. If the pilots market today supplies enough boys and girls willing to work for these conditions, well, I can't say I like it, but who can blame a business for adapting their hiring policies?
Additionally, there are opportunities:
- less pressure on the pilot wage budget, finally some well deserved pay rise ( given the fact we did not receive anything significant over the last decade or so ,it is actually ridiculous to even call it a pay rise, but that is a different story )
- no incentive for the company to start (or buy) a subsidiary with a lower cost level ( and to expand there, like so many European and NA carriers)
My suggestion:
contractual agreement to preserve "grandfather" rights plus inflation index coupling of pay
However, if you look at CX's policy of the past, they tend to respect "grandfather rights" ( fair enough, since that is what you signed up for ).
For instance, A-Scale continued for many years after it was altered into B-scale for new-joiners. (no pay increase over the years, I know, but it was still A-scale).I am aware that this is a sensitive topic, I am not saying the company treated the case the way it should have, of course!
With hindsight one can probably argue that A-scale wasn't a competitive salary anymore ( from a company perspective), proof would be the vast numbers of people who joined on B-scale afterwards. Would CX still be in the market if they would pay A-scale today ? Almost certainly, we know that pilots wages are only a relative minor part of overall cost. But would it be a reasonable management strategy ? Certainly not, since the pilots market changed and it was possible to recruit on B-scale fairly easily.
Now I understand the company is in the process of introducing a C-scale, basically all new-joiners on no/reduced housing.
Why is this a problem for the presently employed pilots?
Now, do not get me wrong, I would certainly prefer to see everybody on housing, including all the former cadets in CX today, but that is simply not what they signed up for. Also everybody interested in CX today is in the position to make up his/her mind about the current conditions and the suitability of the latter.
I personally would never ever join CX without a housing package, my previous job would have been simply more rewarding ,financially and in regard of time to command. Also, on top of that,CX will always have to pay me a slight premium if working for them requires me to live abroad, period.
But that is just me. If the pilots market today supplies enough boys and girls willing to work for these conditions, well, I can't say I like it, but who can blame a business for adapting their hiring policies?
Additionally, there are opportunities:
- less pressure on the pilot wage budget, finally some well deserved pay rise ( given the fact we did not receive anything significant over the last decade or so ,it is actually ridiculous to even call it a pay rise, but that is a different story )
- no incentive for the company to start (or buy) a subsidiary with a lower cost level ( and to expand there, like so many European and NA carriers)
My suggestion:
contractual agreement to preserve "grandfather" rights plus inflation index coupling of pay
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
From: Hong kong
Man you are SO far off on this. When a "new" scale gets introduced this becomes the benchmark. No scale above this will ever receive a pay rise or improvement to conditions until they are equal to the "new" scale. Do you think if you were on B-scale and there was a C-scale that the company would improve your conditions in future negotiations to be better than the C-scale? The GOAL should ALWAYS be to get new joiners BETTER conditions than what exists currently. If this happens (rarely does) then the "benchmark" moves in the correct direction. Dont sell new joiners down the river because then you are just sealing your own future. WAKE UP
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
From: Hong Kong
The only thing we learnt from history is we never really learnt from history.
When B scale was introduced, many A-scalers thought it was not going to affect them. They couldn't be more wrong. They never saw another payrise since then. Most of them would eventually end up in B scale.
When B scale was introduced, many A-scalers thought it was not going to affect them. They couldn't be more wrong. They never saw another payrise since then. Most of them would eventually end up in B scale.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
From: ceduna
sissy
You must be a management ******, pushing a company viewpoint like that. Probably one of those outport managers that dress up in a dark suit and think they know everything about aviation and running an airline.
Is it not a bit strange that airline management do not like pilots! It's time to start 'pushing back' on any erosion of our COS.,in fact we have to start improving everything we are currently contracted to.
Is it not a bit strange that airline management do not like pilots! It's time to start 'pushing back' on any erosion of our COS.,in fact we have to start improving everything we are currently contracted to.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 165
Likes: 1
From: Europe
What if index for inflation/currency protection/housing was made contractual?
That would be a fair demand. As it would mean we will actually be getting what we signed for.
And then we could talk about new contracts for new joiners!
That would be a fair demand. As it would mean we will actually be getting what we signed for.
And then we could talk about new contracts for new joiners!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
From: U.S.
They are hiring new cadets all the time, more than 100 per year is what I've heard, so these new contracts are going to be very relevant. This is why the AOA are fighting so hard for the housing deal.
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
From: No where
are you 'boys' really that stupid? The company has already moved way beyond 'C' scale. You need to decide if you are willing to stand up and defend your current conditions and benefits. If you are, then a day of reckoning is approaching. My guess is you will prove to be as spineless and weak as the original A scalers. However, you have the benefit of knowing what the long term modus operendi of the company really is. If you are not willing to strike, then stop slagging of the original A scalers. The company is determined to push the package lower and lower. Only you (individually) taking a stand will amount to something substantive that will resist the erosion of our conditions. I laugh at some of you that i fly with that proclaim that is the 'senior' pilots that have led us down this path. The truth is that the 'junior' pilots are now in the majority...and they have the responsiblity to stand up to the company at this point in history. My guess....weak d*cks.
Joined: Jul 2007
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 1,953
Likes: 172
From: with the ex-CX pond scum (a zoologist was once head of Flight Ops)
Did you join on B scales Mr Profit? Without starting another hamster wheel, if you did, you contributed to the the deterioration of terms and conditions in the company by accepting an inferior package to mine when you joined (that's if you are a Cathay Pacific pilot at all); then you have the hide to expect me to go on strike for you.
I assume that you will be first on the picket line to prevent C-scale; or maybe it's just too easy to be a tub-thumper on PPRune.
I assume that you will be first on the picket line to prevent C-scale; or maybe it's just too easy to be a tub-thumper on PPRune.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
From: UK
I see an even bigger problem... if the "C" scale remains in it's current form then the result will be a huge turnover of junior pilots who will leave for more money, better terms and quicker commands. THIS will create a shortage of experienced FO's which will then lead to recruiting DEC's!!!
Although I see the point Sissy is making, albeit from an airline management's point of view, we cannot let the company continue to divide and conquer our pilot group. If we have the same contracts, we're on the same page and on the same team... unity is the best weapon we have and they know it...
Although I see the point Sissy is making, albeit from an airline management's point of view, we cannot let the company continue to divide and conquer our pilot group. If we have the same contracts, we're on the same page and on the same team... unity is the best weapon we have and they know it...
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: Western Hemisphere
Remember when COS 08 was for new joiners only? It wasn't even good enough to be voted on by the GC... The following year, a majority of aircrew were on COS08. It became the new standard.
Its definitely a management tactic... to degrade future employee's conditions first and then use it to bring the bar down.
I'm thinking the first post is either a wind-up or a management post.
Its definitely a management tactic... to degrade future employee's conditions first and then use it to bring the bar down.
I'm thinking the first post is either a wind-up or a management post.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
From: canada
I recently heard what the new offer to second officer new hires would be. Pretty sad realy. The former housing allowance was the only thing that made a job with Cathay look attractive. At this point i would be more inclined to take a job with one of the less reputable airlines in hong kong, at least a guy can get a head a bit.
