Housing
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Let us not forget that extending home ownership to 25 years is a BENEFIT for the company!! If the scheme ends at 15 years, then we go rent a suitable place at the rental ceiling, which happens to cost the company signifcantly more $$$.
Extending it 25 years is a win/win deal for all. But of course not good enough for CX.
I say we just keep it as is and I'll see you all in the Four Seasons in a few years!!
Extending it 25 years is a win/win deal for all. But of course not good enough for CX.
I say we just keep it as is and I'll see you all in the Four Seasons in a few years!!
Join Date: Sep 2004
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As long as there are people at CX like stillalbatross then CX will continue this downward spiral.
And it appears that the like of him/her are in the majority.
The down side for you stillalbatross is the sale of your integrity. But, so long as your nest is feathered.... But you NEVER have the right to complain and seek support when you are screwed.
(Well put cxlinedriver).
And it appears that the like of him/her are in the majority.
The down side for you stillalbatross is the sale of your integrity. But, so long as your nest is feathered.... But you NEVER have the right to complain and seek support when you are screwed.
(Well put cxlinedriver).
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Why change?
Housing is just part of the overall package. If Tony T wants to apply market forces to salaries, then it can be applied to housing also. I joined on a set of conditions. I am keeping my side of the deal by working when rostered (provided I am fit). Let me keep the housing I agreed to.
The LEPs joined on their conditions. If they don't like them, then let market forces apply and they can either get a better job elsewhere, or the company can pay them more (increase their housing) to retain them.
One group of pilots should not have to pay for an improvement in conditions for another groups of pilots.
Typical cx. Trying to keep it zero (reduced) cost.
The LEPs joined on their conditions. If they don't like them, then let market forces apply and they can either get a better job elsewhere, or the company can pay them more (increase their housing) to retain them.
One group of pilots should not have to pay for an improvement in conditions for another groups of pilots.
Typical cx. Trying to keep it zero (reduced) cost.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Why should somebody be punished if they go on a base? The simple fact is the cadets should not be entitled to any housing full stop. I bet most only joined the AOA in order to extract this housing deal at the expense of their "mates" in HK.
We're going to have the ludicrous scenario now of somebody coming back to HK for a command earning less money than a fellow captain of a similar vintage, how is that fair? Just let us keep our housing priviledge as it is, the pay rise can wait.
We're going to have the ludicrous scenario now of somebody coming back to HK for a command earning less money than a fellow captain of a similar vintage, how is that fair? Just let us keep our housing priviledge as it is, the pay rise can wait.
Join Date: Nov 2000
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EXEZY,
I didn't join the AOA "in order to extract this housing deal at the expense of their "mates" in HK."
I'd also like to point out to you that this 'offer', if it really exists, came from the Company, not the local pilots.
I didn't join the AOA "in order to extract this housing deal at the expense of their "mates" in HK."
I'd also like to point out to you that this 'offer', if it really exists, came from the Company, not the local pilots.
Join Date: Nov 2000
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EXEZY,
You don't have to call us a 'certain' group. Ours was a protestation or affirmation, not a complaint.
Since you seem to have come to this generalisation of the local pilots quite lightly, and given the fact that I do not know of anyone who intends on "extract(ing) this housing deal at the expense of their "mates" in HK.", the appropriate response to your accusation would be: 'No'.
You don't have to call us a 'certain' group. Ours was a protestation or affirmation, not a complaint.
Since you seem to have come to this generalisation of the local pilots quite lightly, and given the fact that I do not know of anyone who intends on "extract(ing) this housing deal at the expense of their "mates" in HK.", the appropriate response to your accusation would be: 'No'.
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No Housing for Cadets.
I agree with the view that the Cadets should not get housing allowance for the following reasons.
1. They signed their contracts, and so they should have the integrity to stick with them, rather than crying "racist", and asking for a massive increase in their remuneration.
2. The vast majority of them were born, and have family, in Hong Kong. So they already have a place to live. This does not apply to expats.
3. They have had the easiest run in the history of aviation. Full training and board paid for, then straight into a heavy jet. This is the benefit they get.
If they get housing, then the rest of us should be able to bill Cathay for all our training costs.
4. If the AOA pushes this, and Cathay agrees, it sets the terrible precedent that one party can force a massive change in the contracts of one section of the pilot body.
I guarantee that this precedent will be used against us in the future.
5. If the Cadets want to get expat housing, then they are more than welcome to leave their family and friends in Hong Kong, and become expats themselves.
Emirates, Korean, China Airlines etc, are always hiring.
6. The cadets say that its equal pay for equal work. But all industries in the world pay people according to their experience. As does cathay, in our seniority salary scales. The cadets have far inferior experience to even the most low qualified direct entry S/O or F/O, and so their package reflects this.
I am not rejecting the idea of the AOA fighting to improve our conditions, but I think that defending our existing conditions should be a priority.
1. They signed their contracts, and so they should have the integrity to stick with them, rather than crying "racist", and asking for a massive increase in their remuneration.
2. The vast majority of them were born, and have family, in Hong Kong. So they already have a place to live. This does not apply to expats.
3. They have had the easiest run in the history of aviation. Full training and board paid for, then straight into a heavy jet. This is the benefit they get.
If they get housing, then the rest of us should be able to bill Cathay for all our training costs.
4. If the AOA pushes this, and Cathay agrees, it sets the terrible precedent that one party can force a massive change in the contracts of one section of the pilot body.
I guarantee that this precedent will be used against us in the future.
5. If the Cadets want to get expat housing, then they are more than welcome to leave their family and friends in Hong Kong, and become expats themselves.
Emirates, Korean, China Airlines etc, are always hiring.
6. The cadets say that its equal pay for equal work. But all industries in the world pay people according to their experience. As does cathay, in our seniority salary scales. The cadets have far inferior experience to even the most low qualified direct entry S/O or F/O, and so their package reflects this.
I am not rejecting the idea of the AOA fighting to improve our conditions, but I think that defending our existing conditions should be a priority.
Last edited by bartholomewrose; 15th Aug 2010 at 20:41.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I was thinking the AOA should take this to the company. Only a few minor changes here and there to the contract.
41. CAGE AND CAGE RENTAL ASSISTANCE – EXPATRIATE
OFFICERS
41.1. The Company will provide Cage and Cage Rental Assistance to Expatriate
Officers. This is designed to assist Officers in renting suitable cages in Hong
Kong.
41.2. Cage Rental assistance will be adjusted to reflect market conditions for cages in Hong Kong.
41.3. Cages and Cage Rental Assistance will continue during Annual Leave
41.4. Expatriate Officers will be provided with Cage Rental Assistance in
accordance with Company Policy.
41. CAGE AND CAGE RENTAL ASSISTANCE – EXPATRIATE
OFFICERS
41.1. The Company will provide Cage and Cage Rental Assistance to Expatriate
Officers. This is designed to assist Officers in renting suitable cages in Hong
Kong.
41.2. Cage Rental assistance will be adjusted to reflect market conditions for cages in Hong Kong.
41.3. Cages and Cage Rental Assistance will continue during Annual Leave
41.4. Expatriate Officers will be provided with Cage Rental Assistance in
accordance with Company Policy.
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Anyone against housing assistance for cadet entry pilots is myopic in the extreme. Given that recruitment for CEP's is running at approx 120 per year, I ask you to reflect which demographic will be the minority in a mere 10 years from today.
What bargaining power do you expect then to our precious housing allowance.
Short term thinkers with big watches !
What bargaining power do you expect then to our precious housing allowance.
Short term thinkers with big watches !
Join Date: Aug 2007
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That's assuming that they emulate the existing cadets by signing a contract knowing full well the terms and conditions and then a few years down the line demand something that was never part of the deal and hence screw their colleagues at the same time! What is it with you people? We join the company and our conditions are gradually eroded whilst you expect everything, contrary to the contracts you signed.
Let me see........LEP, Local Employed Pilot: Lets take a look at that name and what it means shall we. There is no mention of Expat in that name...
Therefore it naturally follows that you don't get Expat allowances.
Certainly not at my expense anyway.
Sorry to be harsh but thems the facts of life.
I and many others are members of the AOA, if my association is able to negotiate any expat allowances for LEP's then fantastic for them, BUT it should never be at my expense.
Therefore it naturally follows that you don't get Expat allowances.
Certainly not at my expense anyway.
Sorry to be harsh but thems the facts of life.
I and many others are members of the AOA, if my association is able to negotiate any expat allowances for LEP's then fantastic for them, BUT it should never be at my expense.
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Firstly let's get something straight - I am not a LEP / CEP.
Secondly, a fair proportion of CEP's are not Hong Kong locals.
Thirdly, can any of you point me to a statement that housing assistance for CEP's will be at the expense of the scheme currently in place for expatriate officers. No ?
Finally, and I address this one specifically to you nitpicker, I put to you that failing to address this lack of housing assistance for CEP's will, in the long run, will be DIRECTLY at your expense.
Think of this purely as a long term financial transaction and start using your head instead of your heart. I assure you that this is the methodology being used by the upper floors. This is how they have conducted their attack for the past 17 years and this is why they have the runs on the board and we have what ????? A continuing decline !
Secondly, a fair proportion of CEP's are not Hong Kong locals.
Thirdly, can any of you point me to a statement that housing assistance for CEP's will be at the expense of the scheme currently in place for expatriate officers. No ?
Finally, and I address this one specifically to you nitpicker, I put to you that failing to address this lack of housing assistance for CEP's will, in the long run, will be DIRECTLY at your expense.
Think of this purely as a long term financial transaction and start using your head instead of your heart. I assure you that this is the methodology being used by the upper floors. This is how they have conducted their attack for the past 17 years and this is why they have the runs on the board and we have what ????? A continuing decline !
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Thirdly, can any of you point me to a statement that housing assistance for CEP's will be at the expense of the scheme currently in place for expatriate officers. No ?
Join Date: Dec 1999
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"It is the pay rise for ALL which is at the expense of expat housing"
says a two bit rumour forum called pprune.
I may be proved wrong here but lets not confuse fact with fiction
says a two bit rumour forum called pprune.
I may be proved wrong here but lets not confuse fact with fiction
Join Date: Jul 2010
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I think based on the COS, the company can do whatever they want.
Just check the COS section 41, 42, 46, and 47
I believe both expat and local are entitled to rental and housing assistance as per company policy. ( which can be amended from time to time) =( We are so screwed
Just check the COS section 41, 42, 46, and 47
I believe both expat and local are entitled to rental and housing assistance as per company policy. ( which can be amended from time to time) =( We are so screwed
Join Date: Nov 2000
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No pilot, wherever they come from and however they came to join the company, has advocated a degradation of anyone's contract in order to fund an increase to the local pilots' remuneration.
Whether or not someone thinks the gap between the expat package and local package should be reduced is a completely separate issue from where one thinks that money should come from.
Everyone's free to express their opinions on each of those points, but to reason your objection by baselessly accusing the locals of intending to take money from other pilots is wrong.
Whether or not someone thinks the gap between the expat package and local package should be reduced is a completely separate issue from where one thinks that money should come from.
Everyone's free to express their opinions on each of those points, but to reason your objection by baselessly accusing the locals of intending to take money from other pilots is wrong.
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bartholomewrose,
you are big on assumptions yet small on fact
assumption # 1
Firstly, even if cathay gives the cadets housing, they will not do it under the same terms as us.
Assumption # 2
If the cadets get housing, it will be at a lower rate than the expat package. If it wasn't then all the managers would be sacked by Swire.
DOES ANY OF THE ABOVE HAVE ANY FOUNDATION IN FACT OR JUST RANDOM MUSINGS ?
you are big on assumptions yet small on fact
assumption # 1
Firstly, even if cathay gives the cadets housing, they will not do it under the same terms as us.
Assumption # 2
If the cadets get housing, it will be at a lower rate than the expat package. If it wasn't then all the managers would be sacked by Swire.
DOES ANY OF THE ABOVE HAVE ANY FOUNDATION IN FACT OR JUST RANDOM MUSINGS ?