When will enough be truly enough?
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I like it - "bleating", "goathead" - very funny!
Anyway, I digress. As far as income goes I have no idea, likewise I have no idea about how often the GC meet. However, I think it would be reasonable to assume that if we were to hire a greater number of professional advisers than we currently use then subscription rates would have to rise. At some point, individual members would have to be convinced of the benefit of the increased cost. If nothing were to happen as a result of the increased subscriptions then standby for a steady dwindling of numbers. If, however, there were quick results then possibly the opposite would be true. So, the GC are between a rock and a hard place on this one. We do need to bear in mind that in the past, the company have said that they wouldn't negotiate with anyone other than GC members.
I agree with your point about committees and personal agendas but I think rules here in HKG require some sort of democratic set up in a union as opposed to an autocracy. That being the case, any direction taken by a committee will depend upon the relative strengths of its members.
As far as 25 year housing etc goes, the GC can only ask for meetings to discuss these matters but if the other side prevaricate what can they do?
STP
Anyway, I digress. As far as income goes I have no idea, likewise I have no idea about how often the GC meet. However, I think it would be reasonable to assume that if we were to hire a greater number of professional advisers than we currently use then subscription rates would have to rise. At some point, individual members would have to be convinced of the benefit of the increased cost. If nothing were to happen as a result of the increased subscriptions then standby for a steady dwindling of numbers. If, however, there were quick results then possibly the opposite would be true. So, the GC are between a rock and a hard place on this one. We do need to bear in mind that in the past, the company have said that they wouldn't negotiate with anyone other than GC members.
I agree with your point about committees and personal agendas but I think rules here in HKG require some sort of democratic set up in a union as opposed to an autocracy. That being the case, any direction taken by a committee will depend upon the relative strengths of its members.
As far as 25 year housing etc goes, the GC can only ask for meetings to discuss these matters but if the other side prevaricate what can they do?
STP
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we have a committee that is currently undergunned lets face it.... how often do management change there leadership , every 2 years ? We have well intentioned good blokes who are volunteers who just don't have enough in the tank overall to be able to take on CX in a manner the will benefit all of the working pilots of CX .The problem is the way we are running the AOA as a whole . When was the last time the AOA or US as a pilot body actually took the time to review ourselves as a pilot body and see how we have done ?
Has this been looked at ? a change to the way we do things at the AOA? A change in our prospectus? are we getting caught behind the times by insisting on continuing with a AMATEUR way about going our business when we are dealing with pro's....
We have to take a look at ourselves do a review and hopefully make some changes otherwise we are doomed to fail , and that is for sure.
We owe it to the membership and we owe it too ourselves , because the current way of going about our business is not working.
BLEAT BLEAT
we have a committee that is currently undergunned lets face it.... how often do management change there leadership , every 2 years ? We have well intentioned good blokes who are volunteers who just don't have enough in the tank overall to be able to take on CX in a manner the will benefit all of the working pilots of CX .The problem is the way we are running the AOA as a whole . When was the last time the AOA or US as a pilot body actually took the time to review ourselves as a pilot body and see how we have done ?
Has this been looked at ? a change to the way we do things at the AOA? A change in our prospectus? are we getting caught behind the times by insisting on continuing with a AMATEUR way about going our business when we are dealing with pro's....
We have to take a look at ourselves do a review and hopefully make some changes otherwise we are doomed to fail , and that is for sure.
We owe it to the membership and we owe it too ourselves , because the current way of going about our business is not working.
BLEAT BLEAT
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We need professional help, even if it costs. I think most members would happily increase their subs if it meant that we had someone at the table meeting CX at their level.
Wobblywonka....we are not "owed" a living by anyone, but if we sign a contract to do a job for set conditions then that should not change continually in the employer's favour. It is because of people like you with that attitude of "capitulate, quick, before I lose even more" that we are in this position.
I will always be a member of the AOA because they do need support, but as far as I am concerned they are essentially useless, as well intentioned as they may be. I am sick and tired of trying to defend them and sell them to new joiners as so far as I can make out they have done barely anything, other than continually send us weekly whingeing emails, to better our lot. Sure, they point out all the Company's wrongdoings but they do NOTHING to effectively change things.
I will be flamed now, but I don't care. When the AOA actually make a TANGIBLE gain...or even just a save....I will applaud them. But until then I will simply continue to delete their weekly updates which merely serve to inform the members of how toothless they are and do my job as per contract, nothing more, nothing less.
Wobblywonka....we are not "owed" a living by anyone, but if we sign a contract to do a job for set conditions then that should not change continually in the employer's favour. It is because of people like you with that attitude of "capitulate, quick, before I lose even more" that we are in this position.
I will always be a member of the AOA because they do need support, but as far as I am concerned they are essentially useless, as well intentioned as they may be. I am sick and tired of trying to defend them and sell them to new joiners as so far as I can make out they have done barely anything, other than continually send us weekly whingeing emails, to better our lot. Sure, they point out all the Company's wrongdoings but they do NOTHING to effectively change things.
I will be flamed now, but I don't care. When the AOA actually make a TANGIBLE gain...or even just a save....I will applaud them. But until then I will simply continue to delete their weekly updates which merely serve to inform the members of how toothless they are and do my job as per contract, nothing more, nothing less.
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Cathay bows to union in roster-change row
MaryAnnBenitez
Friday, March 26, 2010
More than 800 Cathay flight attendants staged a protest at the airport yesterday despite the carrier canceling controversial duty-swapping guidelines.
The flight attendants said they will continue their fight for "equal work for equal pay," and have not ruled out strike action.
The airline's general manager for in-flight services, Charlie Stewart- Cox, issued a statement telling crew that "the company has canceled and will not reintroduce the guideline related to swapping [shifts] below [working] the 70 hours minimum."
The decision came after 12 hours of talks between management and the Cathay Pacific Airways Flight Attendants' Union on Tuesday and Wednesday.
The policy, announced on March 15, required cabin crew to work at least 70 hours in a month before they could swap shifts with colleagues.
Cathay immediately announced it was deferring its implementation indefinitely before announcing yesterday it has been scrapped.
Becky Kwan Siu-wah, vice chairwoman of the union, said they will seek to continue talks with management on the core issue of low hourly pay that has led to crew members swapping shifts.
"We welcome this decision to cancel [the guideline] but we are still very keen to continue with the talks regarding the other problems at hand. And these include first and foremost the remuneration package for the hourly pay crew because we think that is the core issue," she said.
"It is because of the low hourly pay rate that hourly pay crew need to swap to fly more to earn more ... We strongly feel that it is time to go for equal work for equal pay."
The union held a demonstration outside the airline's Cathay City headquarters, which is near the airport, to show their discontent over the decision to change the swap guidelines. A total of 854 members joined in the protest.
Asked if strike action over the Easter holidays is still on the cards, Kwan said she hoped talks will continue. "We hope we will never have to resort to further industrial action. We will not rule out escalating our action," she said.
Cathay corporate affairs director Quince Chong Wai-yin said: "We have listened to our staff."
MaryAnnBenitez
Friday, March 26, 2010
More than 800 Cathay flight attendants staged a protest at the airport yesterday despite the carrier canceling controversial duty-swapping guidelines.
The flight attendants said they will continue their fight for "equal work for equal pay," and have not ruled out strike action.
The airline's general manager for in-flight services, Charlie Stewart- Cox, issued a statement telling crew that "the company has canceled and will not reintroduce the guideline related to swapping [shifts] below [working] the 70 hours minimum."
The decision came after 12 hours of talks between management and the Cathay Pacific Airways Flight Attendants' Union on Tuesday and Wednesday.
The policy, announced on March 15, required cabin crew to work at least 70 hours in a month before they could swap shifts with colleagues.
Cathay immediately announced it was deferring its implementation indefinitely before announcing yesterday it has been scrapped.
Becky Kwan Siu-wah, vice chairwoman of the union, said they will seek to continue talks with management on the core issue of low hourly pay that has led to crew members swapping shifts.
"We welcome this decision to cancel [the guideline] but we are still very keen to continue with the talks regarding the other problems at hand. And these include first and foremost the remuneration package for the hourly pay crew because we think that is the core issue," she said.
"It is because of the low hourly pay rate that hourly pay crew need to swap to fly more to earn more ... We strongly feel that it is time to go for equal work for equal pay."
The union held a demonstration outside the airline's Cathay City headquarters, which is near the airport, to show their discontent over the decision to change the swap guidelines. A total of 854 members joined in the protest.
Asked if strike action over the Easter holidays is still on the cards, Kwan said she hoped talks will continue. "We hope we will never have to resort to further industrial action. We will not rule out escalating our action," she said.
Cathay corporate affairs director Quince Chong Wai-yin said: "We have listened to our staff."
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Balls
The only time we will ever be able to make a stand against the complete wankers who manage us, is the time we are prepared to loose our jobs.
The cabin attendants can easily get another job with similar conditions and pay. They are prepared to be fired.
Due to seniority based employment we can not risk this job. Management know it.
During the go slow I estimate over halve the pilots did not comply with the AOA direction (maximum safety strategy) - regardless of what these ball-less 'men' would say in the plaza or at a Forum night.
So unless we are all prepared to risk it all, expect more of the same. I for one am not in a financial position to loose this job. Are you?
The cabin attendants can easily get another job with similar conditions and pay. They are prepared to be fired.
Due to seniority based employment we can not risk this job. Management know it.
During the go slow I estimate over halve the pilots did not comply with the AOA direction (maximum safety strategy) - regardless of what these ball-less 'men' would say in the plaza or at a Forum night.
So unless we are all prepared to risk it all, expect more of the same. I for one am not in a financial position to loose this job. Are you?
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I for one am not in a financial position to loose this job. Are you?
The ones of us in the real world understand that a strong union is not mutually exclusive to keeping our jobs, and won't accept living in your so-well-described constant state of paranoia.
So no, I for one don't accept that standing up for ourselves means putting our jobs on the line. But if we don't take a stand soon, then our jobs (and our "financial position") truly will be at risk.
Which again begs the question. When will enough be truly enough?
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All I want , on my wishlist is a strong union leadership to go right back to basics and start at the top of the list, A PAYRISE etc etc etc , before we talk about anything and give away anymore and ask for anything that is not worth worrying about now i.e more conveniance for 'roster swaps ' ...Payrise etc are the most important things that need addressing and then all the rest LEAST important details can be 'asked for'......And that includes LEP who signed a contract that DID NOT INCLUDE HOUSING......
And howabout those newsletters .........what about how to work to your contract.....
And howabout those newsletters .........what about how to work to your contract.....
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With all respect, the long-term gradual degradation of our T&C's is an industry-wide problem, not just CX. In fact, we in CX have somewhat better conditions, than most - not perfect, but still better.
The airline management's objective is to perform better on a relative basis to its peers (i.e. the other airlines), so in an overall declining environment, they just have to do more with less. Like it or not, but this is simply their job - and they all use the same tools: fear & greed.
As a group - we need to regain some control over the "fear & greed" factor which is the root of our problems. We can't control the external circumstances directly and unfortunately, there is no quick-fix, that would improve our T&C's overnight. Any viable solution would have to be long-term in nature.
The unions should redirect some of their emotionally loaded efforts from brainlessly battling their managements to constructive action, which would bear fruit over the longer term.
For example- some involvement and control of the quality of flight training in the flight-schools, would - over the long term- have an impact over the supply of pilots into the market place.
As a market consequence, this inevitably would lift the T&C's in the longer term. Once T&C's stop declining and begin improving, it might even be possible to advocate a different seniority system (perhaps based on the issue date of the ATPL, etc.) making it possible to move laterally between Airlines, thus creating a true job market for pilots.
The airline managements then would adapt to these "external" circumstances just as they do to increasing oil prices.
The airline management's objective is to perform better on a relative basis to its peers (i.e. the other airlines), so in an overall declining environment, they just have to do more with less. Like it or not, but this is simply their job - and they all use the same tools: fear & greed.
As a group - we need to regain some control over the "fear & greed" factor which is the root of our problems. We can't control the external circumstances directly and unfortunately, there is no quick-fix, that would improve our T&C's overnight. Any viable solution would have to be long-term in nature.
The unions should redirect some of their emotionally loaded efforts from brainlessly battling their managements to constructive action, which would bear fruit over the longer term.
For example- some involvement and control of the quality of flight training in the flight-schools, would - over the long term- have an impact over the supply of pilots into the market place.
As a market consequence, this inevitably would lift the T&C's in the longer term. Once T&C's stop declining and begin improving, it might even be possible to advocate a different seniority system (perhaps based on the issue date of the ATPL, etc.) making it possible to move laterally between Airlines, thus creating a true job market for pilots.
The airline managements then would adapt to these "external" circumstances just as they do to increasing oil prices.
Last edited by Avius; 26th Mar 2010 at 15:12.
