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2009 Profit Results

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

2009 Profit Results

Old 10th Mar 2010, 10:03
  #41 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: sydney
Age: 52
Posts: 1

COS reads,

"officers will be entilted to recieve an annual share of CPA's profits in accordance with company policy as may be amended time to time".

Would this not mean a policy must be in place to be in compliance with the COS from the employer's point of view? From a legal standpoint, seems that simple. Thoughts/ comments?
freighterdog is offline  
Old 10th Mar 2010, 10:46
  #42 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Aussii
Posts: 50
so will it get paid in March pay packet, or as the memo states. Paid in April..
Noddys car is offline  
Old 10th Mar 2010, 11:26
  #43 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: HK
Posts: 94
Reckon it'll be in April so you won't get slugged for tax in the year up to 31 Mar 2010.
And as for
that those who signed for COS 08 are getting the equivalent of SLS back, even though they didn't pay it?
I don't read it that way.
If you were a sucker like me, you get 90% back, if you didn't take SLS, you get 100% of what you gave the company, ie zip.
mephisto88 is offline  
Old 10th Mar 2010, 11:54
  #44 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 33
..and just how surprised are you all?

When has the company management failed to penalise the honest employees of this company for their loyalty?

Get a life, everyone - 5 weeks extra leave and maximum FDP and EFP for all!

Hasn't anyone else worked this out?
Free Flight is offline  
Old 10th Mar 2010, 16:09
  #45 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: .
Posts: 2,936

Level A are Cabin crew, ground staff etc
Not accurate at all, lots of ground staff are B and C grade.
spannersatcx is offline  
Old 10th Mar 2010, 18:18
  #46 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: HK
Posts: 97
you all moan and carry on ,but the the fact of the matter is that as a group that should be united , we are a weak pathetic little school kid who will always be bullied! and the bully will keep pounding on us why? cause its fun! So go winge to ya mothers and think if in this generation of pilots that maybe darwins theory of evolution is true and that we were all born without backbones! Im embarrassed to be part of it.
GANKER is offline  
Old 10th Mar 2010, 18:52
  #47 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 240
Big profits announced yet:

1- SLS not fully paid back (90% only for level D)
2- 13th month not paid (only two weeks)
3- no profit share
4- dividends paid to shareholders!

So, to sum it all up: we are giving some SLS, half of the 13th month and our share of profit to the shareholders.

Thanks again, dear company, for transfering our salaries into the accounts of shareholders. We hope that management also took the time to reward themselves with some of our salaries too.
bobrun is offline  
Old 10th Mar 2010, 19:15
  #48 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 139
I was strong armed into signing a new contract or stay on freighter scale indefinitely. It is going to cost me roughly $250,000USD over ten years as an FO now on UFO pay. Instead I will get three weeks pay instead of my B scale. I'd say I paid more than my share.
rjmore is offline  
Old 10th Mar 2010, 20:00
  #49 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 240
Regarding the 13th month, below is what our COS states:

"In any year when profitability is marginal or negative...the Annual discretionary bonus may be reduced or, in extreme circumstances, not paid."

Now, with over 4 billion in profits, I'd like to know why we haven't been paid our full 13th month? Any explanations? Seems like a breach of contract (seriously, isn't the bonus contractual with profits over 4 billion???).

To top it of, they will pay shareholders their share of the profit (dividends) but we won't see any of it? Really? 4 billion isn't enough to share?

Sorry, but giving back salaries (that we should have been paid in the first place anyway) isn't nearly enough.

bobrun is offline  
Old 10th Mar 2010, 20:57
  #50 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: az
Posts: 231
rjmore. Nobody strong armed anybody to sign Cos '08. That's your own fault, and you can't blame it on anybody but yourself!
airplaneridesrfun is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2010, 00:16
  #51 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 139
So threat of not having any bases open on the 777 due to current COS 08 guys going to training wasn't real? I couldn't switch to the 777 to get a passenger base, can't go to HKG, and had no other choice but to remain on the freighter on freighter scale if I did not sign over.

Maybe strong arm is the wrong term but there certainly were not any great choices. That is also why most NAM FOs in my seniority level did sign over. I made the choice and I accept that, my statement was simply to show that we did make a sacrifice as well. Sometimes you have to know when you've been beaten, and we were beaten on this one.

With that, I'm done with the thread...back to your regularly scheduled programming.
rjmore is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2010, 03:21
  #52 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: london
Posts: 4
Well I'm happy. Three weeks extra leave last year where I obtained alternate employment. I banked double pay for that month. Bring back SLS. count me in for the next one!
deepdiggings is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2010, 05:43
  #53 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: All over the show like a madwomans crap
Posts: 493
Thumbs down

Easy sorted...stick together, go to the the slimy lying basterds who pose as "management" as say...."sort it, or we walk".....balls anyone?
NoseGear is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2010, 10:52
  #54 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: www.
Posts: 41
Cx has in the past done many things to annoy the hell out of me, but this SLS repayment is not one of those occasions. When I left the Air Force in 2005 I did so with 9 buddies. Of those 9 in the last year:-

4 - have been made redundant.
3 - are on a 40% pay cut for a minimum of one year.
1 - is expecting to hear if he will be made redundant in the next few weeks but is actively looking for a new job with virtually zero success.
1 Ė has had no change, but is far less confidant about his companies future.

I got an additional 3 weeks paid leave, when I wanted it!

Compared to the people I know I didnít get a good deal.................I got without doubt the best deal.

As far as the captains go, yes I do find the withholding of 10% rather petty. I guess the company was trying to send the message that what permanent sacrifice has been made due to the financial crisis is to be borne by management. That may be a rather rose tinted view granted, but please answer honestly the following question:-

If at the start of the financial crisis instead of asking for unpaid leave the company had said we want all captains to take a month off but you will have to forfeit 3 days pay which you will not get back. Would you have taken it?

Just trying to look at this situation from a glass half full perspective! Hard hat and flack jacket on, standing by for incoming!
IFB is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2010, 11:32
  #55 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: hONG kONG
Posts: 113
Glass half full

Nullaman is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2010, 11:50
  #56 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 23
Nick Rhodes says your glass is too big...... and he has a plan to fix that!!
Liam Gallagher is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2010, 12:00
  #57 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: www.
Posts: 41
perhaps, but I still got 3 weeks additional paid leave when I wanted. All I am saying is with this individual situation I do not understand all the venom.
IFB is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2010, 13:08
  #58 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Lion rock bottom
Posts: 174
with this individual situation I do not understand all the venom.
Score one for management then. Divide and conquer is what it's all about.
Captains are pissed, but you're happy so all is well for you.
Good thing you'll never be a captain then...?

Comparing your situation to whatever hardship others are going through is also exactly what TT and the herd want you to think. Surely you don't think the 'industry news' part of the weekly newsletter is just a random collection of aviation headlines?

Management will ALWAYS seek the lowest common denominator, And if you're happy and satisfied with what you have, then you're paid too much.

Which is why I suppose you're also happy to give away your profit share so they can pay management bonuses, despite the profit?
Ex Cathedra is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2010, 15:01
  #59 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: www.
Posts: 41
Ex Cathedra

Certainly seems that Captains are pissed. But SLS was our choice and you did not have to take SLS if you didn't want too. When I signed up to the scheme I was sceptical that any would be paid back, but if you thought it was just a loan then I guess I can understand your anger! All that said if the company offered me an additional 4 weeks leave next year at a cost of under 3 days pay then I would jump at the chance. Perhaps you are right I am paid too much, or perhaps I just value my time off more than you do. If the company offer you an extra 4 weeks leave next year at such a cost will you take it?

Are you a captain? If yes then did you take COS08 and age 65? Are you happy with that? Some might say that was a divide an conquer issue. Be interested to know which side of the fence you fell on that one? I may not make captain, but that will probably be due to COS08. However before you jump to any conclusion on how I feel over that little issue let me point out that I have made no indication one way or the other.

As for the industry news update. Hmmm do you actually read that!!! My comments were based on real people rather than company spin. The fact is I know dozens of people in many airlines. Some are better off than me and some are worse. However, the simple fact is that my friends of similar age and time in the civilian world are ALL worse off that I am after the financial downtown. Maybe you are right rather than compare my situation with people of similar age experience and time in aviation I should compare myself to all the A scalers instead. Of course some may say that that was an unrealistic comparison! Bugger......What to do!

With regard the profit share that is a diffent situation and one which I have made no comment on so am somewhat surprised that you feel you know my opinion. Well done you! If you really can read minds then maybe you should put yourself forward to the AOA as a negtiator. We could do with that sort of help on our side! Of course you may be wrong, but there is little point in me commenting as you have already made up your mind on what I think!
IFB is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2010, 02:53
  #60 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 33

A belated welcome to your second career - hope the RAF or RAAF or USAF was fun and that the training your received at the taxpayers expense is still up to the excellent standards we expect. Sure that the accrued retirement benefits are also of some comfort in this harsh world.

Now you are 5 years into your professional career, it seems as though you are actually not reflecting the "glass half full" position but rather "the sky i falling" Chicken Little position. If you take you position that many other pilots - some of which you know - are facing redundancy and pay cuts as a reason for the professional pilots at this successful airline not to protect and advance their careers then you will never see any improvement over your career.
I have been in the airlines for over 3 decades and can say, without fear of contradiction that there are always airlines that are facing financial pressures and pilots that are facing the prospect of changing jobs. Cathay Pacific has always used these financially stressed airlines as a ready source of highly trained professional pilots - just ask your colleagues on the flight deck where they worked before.

If you take your position to its logical conclusion then the professional pilot group will never see an improvement in terms and conditions for the rest of their careers because there will always be some group or airline that is facing a financial meltdown - even in "good times", often because of strategic decisions made outside of their control - e.g. Swissair which was driven into the ground (financially) because of the desire of the CEO and board to acquire other airlines in a business plan that was flawed - Sabena, Air Limoges and the other regional airlines that Swissair acquired lead to the failure of the parent company even when other airlines were making hay in the sunshine times.

The success of Cathay Pacific has been generated over the past 60+ years by a combination of factors - good location, good political connections, cheap local support labour, excellent standards, almost monopolistic market conditions, minimalist regulation and labour laws which have been ignored or barely respected in the past (see Cartel prosecutions and Labour Department findings against the company), excellent reactions to the major changes in market conditions, etc. All of these factors have generated massive returns for the original investors, shareholders and also used to provide excellent terms and conditions for the professional pilots who moved their families for a hardship posting in the Far East.

You will say that we have moved on and you are perfectly correct - HK is no longer a hardship posting and it is no longer necessary for a new joiner to have 10-15 years experience BUT the correction to the terms and conditions for new joiners more than recognises the change in entry requirements. Cathay Pacific has continued to benefit from rumours of being the best paid pilots in the world - something that has been a dream for a couple of decades now.

I would recommend that you consider what is in the best long term interest of both your ex-colleagues and yourself and family. Do you honestly believe that a massively profitable company like Cathay Pacific reducing the wages for its professional pilots is going to help your ex-colleagues regain their long term, career earnings potential? Someone has to be the leader and that is best to be the the group that is best able to afford it. Don't ask BA or United to be the pace setters when they have financial difficulties.

If you wish to raise the issue of some pilots in the world being financially hurt at the moment, the best thing you can do is to support them and to support the improvement in terms and conditions for the professional pilots in the successful airlines around the world which will give your friends the ability and choice to move to improve their families' prospects.

May you have a long, successful and well remunerated career at one of the most profitable airlines in the world.

Free Flight is offline  

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