Local pilots fly off the handle at expat perks
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Sorry but fighting for better conditions and fighting for what he has and I don't are two very different fights. I will never complain that I am doing the same job as an A scaler and getting paid as a B scaler, even after 15years, because it is what I signed up for. Anyway we can go at it back and forth all day long, as I've said in my post above, lets improve the package by maybe paying a higher salary for LEPs, but the fight shouldn't be about he is getting the housing allowance and I am not! Good luck!
TGIG
Where does it end then?? Next will be based pilots complaining that they are not receiving expat benefits!!!So what is it that you are after, expat benefits to those in Hong Kong only??? If so, then I can use your statement against you.
TGIG
Where does it end then?? Next will be based pilots complaining that they are not receiving expat benefits!!!So what is it that you are after, expat benefits to those in Hong Kong only??? If so, then I can use your statement against you.
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I fail to see the distinction in fighting for better conditions and fighting for the same conditions as your peers but it's fair to agree to disagree. I do prefer civilised debate to the back and forths as you rightfully mentioned.
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More for everybody I say - we all want something. If the local guys can get any sort of increase on their contract - good on them - and the same goes for all.
Why would any of us care when CX pays more money to any of our flying colleaugues except to be happy for them??
Debating the pro's and cons of this is pointless. If you were local but you grew up in OZ and you cant even read and write Chinese would you not like to send your kids to a decent intl school and live in a decent space - the way you grew up??
Sure sure its not the contract you signed - but I signed '99 and I want my bypass and I want 65 too - so we all want something.
Why would any of us care when CX pays more money to any of our flying colleaugues except to be happy for them??
Debating the pro's and cons of this is pointless. If you were local but you grew up in OZ and you cant even read and write Chinese would you not like to send your kids to a decent intl school and live in a decent space - the way you grew up??
Sure sure its not the contract you signed - but I signed '99 and I want my bypass and I want 65 too - so we all want something.
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There's clearly nothing wrong with striving for better conditions but what does boycotting the LNY parade achieve? Most of the public think that we're petulant, overpaid bus drivers anyway (thanks to RE) and I'm not altogether sure that this latest campaign will do anything to change their minds. Please correct me if I'm not reading this the right way.
STP
STP
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Dragon69, Why does asking for/wanting better conditions have to end? Do you expect Management to benevolently increase your conditions without you asking for it? Do you think Management will 'end' their drive to continuity reduce our package whenever there is an opportunity?
I would be happy if I had to opportunity to get housing benefits if I moved to a base, but then I remember from your previous post that it would be illogical for a Hong Kong based airline to give housing benefits to a Hong Kong based pilot based overseas. I also replied that would be discrimination because he/she would earn substantially less purely because of his/hers nationality.
Just to preempt a possible rebuttal about the lack of commercial necessity for a local to move to an outport vs an expat coming to work in Hong Kong, what about Direct Entry F/Os? They have the choice to move to Hong Kong and get full housing after 2/3+ years of service. However, they were hired to work in their home base, like me, and thus there is no commercial need for them to leave their home base. So why is it when they choose to come to HKD they can have full housing whereas if I choose to come to SYD I'm still a local? Food for thought perhaps.
I would be happy if I had to opportunity to get housing benefits if I moved to a base, but then I remember from your previous post that it would be illogical for a Hong Kong based airline to give housing benefits to a Hong Kong based pilot based overseas. I also replied that would be discrimination because he/she would earn substantially less purely because of his/hers nationality.
Just to preempt a possible rebuttal about the lack of commercial necessity for a local to move to an outport vs an expat coming to work in Hong Kong, what about Direct Entry F/Os? They have the choice to move to Hong Kong and get full housing after 2/3+ years of service. However, they were hired to work in their home base, like me, and thus there is no commercial need for them to leave their home base. So why is it when they choose to come to HKD they can have full housing whereas if I choose to come to SYD I'm still a local? Food for thought perhaps.
Last edited by TGIG; 11th Feb 2010 at 03:46. Reason: paragraphs make better reading
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The reason why this request from LEPs angers many expats is that all expats pilots have made a big sacrifice to move their family away from their home country. In order to entice expats to do this, the company has to make it worth their inconvenience. That is why they offer expat benefits. It is the reward for the sacrifice.
If you are a local pilot then you have not made the same sacrifice. If you feel that you are underpaid, then by all means, you should argue and demand higher pay. But that is very different from expat benefits and the two should not be confused. If you want expat benefits, you can get them from many carriers that are currently hiring in the middle-east and India.
If you are a local pilot then you have not made the same sacrifice. If you feel that you are underpaid, then by all means, you should argue and demand higher pay. But that is very different from expat benefits and the two should not be confused. If you want expat benefits, you can get them from many carriers that are currently hiring in the middle-east and India.
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Originally Posted by Sqwak7700
The reason why this request from LEPs angers many expats is that all expats pilots have made a big sacrifice to move their family away from their home country. In order to entice expats to do this, the company has to make it worth their inconvenience. That is why they offer expat benefits. It is the reward for the sacrifice.
what about the other way around, suppose the company decides to double the expat housing allowance from its current level, on top of inflation and everything. if it comes to a vote in the AOA, do you think the locals would vote it down?
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Sqwak, I do hope that what the LEPs are doing is not angering the many expats that you were referring to. It does seem that there are always the same and select few on PPrune who are intolerant of those who are merely trying to better their terms of employment. What the LEPs are doing in no way affects the package of the expats and it's beyond my belief that some of you can get so worked up over an issue that bears no consequence to you. I for one will always be supportive of my colleagues regardless of their CoS, package or base when and if a situation arises where they may have the chance to improve their terms.
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STP
whats wrong with the locals not attending the LNY parade? I am sure its not in their contracts stating they have to attend. I am sure they dont want to give up their g day anyways just so they can walk around tst in uniform. If you care so much, why dont you call up crew control and see if you can volunteer for it instead.
whats wrong with the locals not attending the LNY parade? I am sure its not in their contracts stating they have to attend. I am sure they dont want to give up their g day anyways just so they can walk around tst in uniform. If you care so much, why dont you call up crew control and see if you can volunteer for it instead.
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it's beyond my belief that some of you can get so worked up over an issue that bears no consequence to you.
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The problem is that we are failing to hang on to our existing conditions. With a limited (if management have their way, reducing) pot of cash available, an improvement to one group has to be has to be balanced by reductions elsewhere. There may be little sympathy for what could be considered an unreasonable demand!
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Well, if you think if the CEP getting any sort of COS improvement would mean a reduction in your own benefit then I have this to say to you mate. "If that happens, you can always go to the middle east and get your housing allowance over there", just like you suggested for the CEP to do. In fact, you have left your own country already so what's the big deal if you move again, right??? If you still choose to stay in HKG because it's a better place to live in then that is "YOUR CHOICE", so you can't really complain if they do reduce your benefit for someone else's improvement and still stay here, you had a choice.
And please, don't tell me you don't consider the housing allowance as part of your salary/pay/take-home-money or whatever you call it. At the end of the day, you're gonna pocket that money and we all know it's just an accounting exercise. IF the housing allownace is allowed to be used for RENT ONLY, just like most of the middle eastern airliners, then I can see how you can argue that the locals shouldn't get it cause it's not actual going into the your pocket. However, in CX's case, that lump sum IS eventually going into your pocket, so quit that "oh it's an allowance to compensate us" crap, IT IS PART OF YOUR TAKE HOME SALARY SMARTIE PANTS!!!!
If you think the CEP's didn't sacrifice ANYTHING to work for CX, you're probably the most naive person I've ever seen working for this company (even though there are probably more than I realize). Open up your tiny little eyes and look around, see how many CEP's actually left their home country and families behind to work for CX in HKG. There are CEP's commuting long distances and paying two mortgages half way around the world, sometimes paying full fare tickets during peak season because we don't get that priority 4 get-u-home FOC ticket. Countless of them actually don't even speak/read a word of chinese, the only thing that link them to HKG is their ID card. I'm pretty sure a lot of the so-called "expats" own as well after living here for years, and some even plan to call this their permanent home till death, so why aren't they considered "local"?
Sure the company invested a HUGE amount of money in the cadet programme but how many years of housing allowance does the training cost actually equals to? 3 years? 6 years? 10 years? 30 years? you tell me. The CEP's aren't even asking for housing allowance from day 1, we acknowledge the fact that the company MUST recover the training cost they provided. But at what point should the CEP be considered by ANYONE that they're actually just as experienced and capable as the next guy down the senority list? At the moment, they don't even get that recognition when they retire. And I ain't even talking about the "Same job same pay" BS, what I'm talking is the fact that a CEP A-scale CN is actually getting less than a B-scale FO while the company expects the lower paid guy to save everyone's @ss when **** hits the fan. Many CEPs have actually became captain, senior captains, or even T&C already. Are you telling me that their experience and skills is far less than the FO/SO sitting next to them? Why the heck is he training or even checking the guy sitting in the right seat then if that's the case?
I still remember all those whinning and crying foul w/ RA65 and COS08 couple months back, complaining about command time getting delayed for couple years or bypass pay getting waived or whatever. Mate, try getting screwed for 30+ years then you can talk to us again.
And please, don't tell me you don't consider the housing allowance as part of your salary/pay/take-home-money or whatever you call it. At the end of the day, you're gonna pocket that money and we all know it's just an accounting exercise. IF the housing allownace is allowed to be used for RENT ONLY, just like most of the middle eastern airliners, then I can see how you can argue that the locals shouldn't get it cause it's not actual going into the your pocket. However, in CX's case, that lump sum IS eventually going into your pocket, so quit that "oh it's an allowance to compensate us" crap, IT IS PART OF YOUR TAKE HOME SALARY SMARTIE PANTS!!!!
If you think the CEP's didn't sacrifice ANYTHING to work for CX, you're probably the most naive person I've ever seen working for this company (even though there are probably more than I realize). Open up your tiny little eyes and look around, see how many CEP's actually left their home country and families behind to work for CX in HKG. There are CEP's commuting long distances and paying two mortgages half way around the world, sometimes paying full fare tickets during peak season because we don't get that priority 4 get-u-home FOC ticket. Countless of them actually don't even speak/read a word of chinese, the only thing that link them to HKG is their ID card. I'm pretty sure a lot of the so-called "expats" own as well after living here for years, and some even plan to call this their permanent home till death, so why aren't they considered "local"?
Sure the company invested a HUGE amount of money in the cadet programme but how many years of housing allowance does the training cost actually equals to? 3 years? 6 years? 10 years? 30 years? you tell me. The CEP's aren't even asking for housing allowance from day 1, we acknowledge the fact that the company MUST recover the training cost they provided. But at what point should the CEP be considered by ANYONE that they're actually just as experienced and capable as the next guy down the senority list? At the moment, they don't even get that recognition when they retire. And I ain't even talking about the "Same job same pay" BS, what I'm talking is the fact that a CEP A-scale CN is actually getting less than a B-scale FO while the company expects the lower paid guy to save everyone's @ss when **** hits the fan. Many CEPs have actually became captain, senior captains, or even T&C already. Are you telling me that their experience and skills is far less than the FO/SO sitting next to them? Why the heck is he training or even checking the guy sitting in the right seat then if that's the case?
I still remember all those whinning and crying foul w/ RA65 and COS08 couple months back, complaining about command time getting delayed for couple years or bypass pay getting waived or whatever. Mate, try getting screwed for 30+ years then you can talk to us again.
Last edited by CXChildLabour; 11th Feb 2010 at 09:02.
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There's clearly nothing wrong with striving for better conditions but what does boycotting the LNY parade achieve? Most of the public think that we're petulant, overpaid bus drivers anyway (thanks to RE) and I'm not altogether sure that this latest campaign will do anything to change their minds. Please correct me if I'm not reading this the right way.
STP
STP
Note: In true CX fashion, edited the message for inappropriate comment even after it went public.
But at least I'm willing to admit it in black and white and would like to appologize to those who I have offened originally.
Last edited by CXChildLabour; 11th Feb 2010 at 11:58.
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I have merely made 'devil's advocate' comments in order to encourage discussion.
Since you do not know me you no nothing about my terms,conditions and allowances - you might be surprised!
Also, I am not your mate!
Since you do not know me you no nothing about my terms,conditions and allowances - you might be surprised!
Also, I am not your mate!
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Envy would imply an element of animosity towards a person who has more, with a degree of pleasure taken in seeing that same person being brought down a peg or two, a feeling which I personally don't have towards anyone here no matter what their background. By the same token, I don't think envy would correctly describe the attitude that CEPs have towards their expat counterparts. It's not about getting more just because the next guy has it, it's about getting what should be and is common value. Unless of course, you think a CEP is beneath the worth of that common value and deserves less?
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CXChildLabour...thank you for proving my point, in the end it is all about envy!!!!!!! So cut the crap with this notion of fighting for better conditions.....
Oh wait, maybe I AM. I AM ENVY of the fact that you guys bitched and whined about ur 3.4% SLS paycut compared to my 7%. I AM ENVY of the fact that you could get paid more than your trainer/checker. I AM ENVY of the fact that you could try your best to prevent improvement for a minority part of the pilot body just in case it MIGHT affect you no matter how slim that chance is. And I MOST OF ALL AM ENVY of the fact that you can be the worst CAT D FO in the company and still say "ah so what, I still make loads of cash" while CEP's have to live like bums even when we make it all the way. Nah, it's not about fighting for better conditions or equality for the same job we do, IT IS ALL ABOUT ENVY.
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I have merely made 'devil's advocate' comments in order to encourage discussion.
Since you do not know me you no nothing about my terms,conditions and allowances - you might be surprised!
Also, I am not your mate!
Since you do not know me you no nothing about my terms,conditions and allowances - you might be surprised!
Also, I am not your mate!
And I'm sorry to call you mate, mate... I mean dude.....
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you jumped the queue signed a contract and now what???
I understand why you feel hard done by , time has a funny way of changing your views.
You were given a fantastic opportunity to start flying with a guaranteed employment contract if you pass the course. The sting was to bypass all the normal experience requirements you had to be a permanent ID card holder ( things have changed a bit but you know what the quid pro was) and be employed without ANY expatriate benefits???
now your crying that it is not fair.............. well mix in some noise about direct entry pilots being suddenly being told no expat benefits and the drums are beating?? sorry I smell bullsh?t
We have some major changes coming and I congratulate the LEP's for going for a contract change just do not ask me to support it at the detriment of my contract which is how it looks to me?
You were given a fantastic opportunity to start flying with a guaranteed employment contract if you pass the course. The sting was to bypass all the normal experience requirements you had to be a permanent ID card holder ( things have changed a bit but you know what the quid pro was) and be employed without ANY expatriate benefits???
now your crying that it is not fair.............. well mix in some noise about direct entry pilots being suddenly being told no expat benefits and the drums are beating?? sorry I smell bullsh?t
We have some major changes coming and I congratulate the LEP's for going for a contract change just do not ask me to support it at the detriment of my contract which is how it looks to me?