Pilot Fatigue
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wah poor me...
Zap:
Been there done that. If you stay on regional and never do red eyes then maybe your schedule is great compared to a mixed long haul red eye schedule.
My point is it is all relative. I have worked regional schedules long days 5 sectors, 14 hour duty day 5 days a week, and was never as tired as I am doing long haul, regional mix.
I cannot fathom why you would not sympathise with fatigue issues. Why would you not want to see the industry as a whole improve our safety margins by dealing with fatigue issues properly ? There have been numerous "east coast" accidents over the years where fatigue was not highlighted as a hole in the swiss cheese when it was probably one of the larger holes. So if you were serious about safety you would get on to the FAA and your pilot Union and change your work rules.
IMHO fatigue is the largest safety issue we face in aviation today.
If you think otherwise ZAP then you have not been in the game long enough.
Cheers
FG
Been there done that. If you stay on regional and never do red eyes then maybe your schedule is great compared to a mixed long haul red eye schedule.
My point is it is all relative. I have worked regional schedules long days 5 sectors, 14 hour duty day 5 days a week, and was never as tired as I am doing long haul, regional mix.
I cannot fathom why you would not sympathise with fatigue issues. Why would you not want to see the industry as a whole improve our safety margins by dealing with fatigue issues properly ? There have been numerous "east coast" accidents over the years where fatigue was not highlighted as a hole in the swiss cheese when it was probably one of the larger holes. So if you were serious about safety you would get on to the FAA and your pilot Union and change your work rules.
IMHO fatigue is the largest safety issue we face in aviation today.
If you think otherwise ZAP then you have not been in the game long enough.
Cheers
FG
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ZB
I still can't make up my mind about you but comments like:
either mean that you're out of the game completely or you've moved on to an outfit that's neither "rinky dink" nor "legacy". It strikes me that there are contributors to this thread who are far more qualified to comment on comparative fatigue issues than you because they have experienced both ends of the regional/long haul spectrum.
With a name like yours I would think that you either see yourself as a revolutionary, a Zapatista if you like (which I doubt), or as someone with poor old Emiliano's blood on his hands, like Guajardo, who lured Zapata to his death by pretending to be something that he wasn't. Which is it in your case - pilot or management?
Whatever, and not to be picky, but this thread started with some "schmuck" bleating about about how tiring a 12 hour 3 sector day would be, so get your facts right before you come up with your next accusation as to how soft another airline's crews are.
STP
I still can't make up my mind about you but comments like:
Nope, used to fly for a full service rinky dink legacy outfit
With a name like yours I would think that you either see yourself as a revolutionary, a Zapatista if you like (which I doubt), or as someone with poor old Emiliano's blood on his hands, like Guajardo, who lured Zapata to his death by pretending to be something that he wasn't. Which is it in your case - pilot or management?
Whatever, and not to be picky, but this thread started with some "schmuck" bleating about about how tiring a 12 hour 3 sector day would be, so get your facts right before you come up with your next accusation as to how soft another airline's crews are.
STP
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 672
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Someone was telling me that a crew decided not to go into discretion. The captain was of course not queried and never heard from CC or management but that the F/O was called up for tea and biccies, the reasoning being that it is Commander's discretion and not F/O's discretion.
Sounds a bit suspect to me, even for our lot. Anyone heard similar?
Sounds a bit suspect to me, even for our lot. Anyone heard similar?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The crew decided not to go into discretion?
No, it is Commanders discretion. He evaluates how well rested/capable his crew is to complete the duty, and then he makes his decision.. full stop. When he asks you at dispatch how "busy" you are at the moment, or what time zone you are on, that is the opportunity to tell him what to expect from you. Note, CX expects that you must turn up fit and rested for the rostered duty.
It is almost impossible for the Company to question the Commander on this decision. If anyone else from the crew is questioned, then their response should concentrate on this point, after calling the HKAOA.
No, it is Commanders discretion. He evaluates how well rested/capable his crew is to complete the duty, and then he makes his decision.. full stop. When he asks you at dispatch how "busy" you are at the moment, or what time zone you are on, that is the opportunity to tell him what to expect from you. Note, CX expects that you must turn up fit and rested for the rostered duty.
It is almost impossible for the Company to question the Commander on this decision. If anyone else from the crew is questioned, then their response should concentrate on this point, after calling the HKAOA.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: mexico
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“I cannot fathom why you would not sympathise with fatigue issues.”
5 Green, again you are jumping onto arguments I have not made.
I agree that fatigue is a huge issue, it has been in every airline I have worked for. I did not imply in ANY of my comments that it was not.
Steve, mate, you’re a dill.
“so get your facts right before you come up with your next accusation as to how soft another airline's crews are.”
Mate, ahhh, what facts are you talking about. The main thrust of my post is not about fatigue, it never was. I am still laughing at this gem “they are either flying or doing paperwork/aircraft setup for the entire duty, even eating at the controls”
I just love the eating at the controls bit.
You’re an airline pilot, you spend your life sitting on your ass crapping on about how TT doesn’t know how to run an airline properly while eating as much food as the lovely ladies can bring you. Deal with it.
Aint it a scam, and they pay us too.
5 Green, again you are jumping onto arguments I have not made.
I agree that fatigue is a huge issue, it has been in every airline I have worked for. I did not imply in ANY of my comments that it was not.
Steve, mate, you’re a dill.
“so get your facts right before you come up with your next accusation as to how soft another airline's crews are.”
Mate, ahhh, what facts are you talking about. The main thrust of my post is not about fatigue, it never was. I am still laughing at this gem “they are either flying or doing paperwork/aircraft setup for the entire duty, even eating at the controls”
I just love the eating at the controls bit.
You’re an airline pilot, you spend your life sitting on your ass crapping on about how TT doesn’t know how to run an airline properly while eating as much food as the lovely ladies can bring you. Deal with it.
Aint it a scam, and they pay us too.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Smogsville
Posts: 1,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ZB,
You're not reading the posts!
He even underlined it for you!
Here's a hint
You wrote,
He wrote,
All I can say is CX management would love you! 
You're not reading the posts!
“so get your facts right before you come up with your next accusation as to how soft another airline's crews are.”
Mate, ahhh, what facts are you talking about.
Mate, ahhh, what facts are you talking about.
Here's a hint
You wrote,
It started with some schmuck bleating about how tiring a 6 hour 3 sector day would be.
Whatever, and not to be picky, but this thread started with some "schmuck" bleating about about how tiring a 12 hour 3 sector day would be, so get your facts right before you come up with your next accusation as to how soft another airline's crews are.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ZB
Fair enough, maybe the main thrust of your post wasn't about fatigue but only now have you come out and acknowledged its significance to the industry. Perhaps some of the examples quoted did make you laugh but there are many instances in the industry, not just at CX, where Flight Time Limitations are seen as targets rather than limits by those who construct rosters. Consecutive long days with minimum rest WILL have a long term effect on fatigue with the consequent impact on performance.
On the "You Scruffy Bu**ers" thread you said:
I agree but you'd better hope that the guys who're flying you aren't at the wrong end of a whole series of average rosters that have affected their fatigue level. I also agree with you when you say professionalism isn't defined by how dapper you look. However, one of the defining measures of professionalism is the ability to enter a debate on such an important topic in a positive manner without feeling the need to be derogatory to other contributors. If you have an opinion on fatigue issues facing you in your company then let's hear them and see how we, as a group of professional people, can present a cogent argument to the industry to mitigate any potential issues before they arise.
STP
PS. I haven't been called a dill since high school - thanks.
Fair enough, maybe the main thrust of your post wasn't about fatigue but only now have you come out and acknowledged its significance to the industry. Perhaps some of the examples quoted did make you laugh but there are many instances in the industry, not just at CX, where Flight Time Limitations are seen as targets rather than limits by those who construct rosters. Consecutive long days with minimum rest WILL have a long term effect on fatigue with the consequent impact on performance.
On the "You Scruffy Bu**ers" thread you said:
As a regular SLF with CX, can I just say that I (and anyone I have spoken too) dont give two hoots how you look. Jeans and tee shirts would be fine. Professionalism is NOT defined by how dapper you look.
STP
PS. I haven't been called a dill since high school - thanks.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The Casbah
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys, decorum.
Back to the big picture.
PBS aired this last night, the frontline investigation into the Colgan air accident.
FRONTLINE: flying cheap: watch the full program | PBS
Don't know how long it will be online for, for free, so hope you all catch it soon.
Back to the big picture.
PBS aired this last night, the frontline investigation into the Colgan air accident.
FRONTLINE: flying cheap: watch the full program | PBS
Don't know how long it will be online for, for free, so hope you all catch it soon.
