Pilot Fatigue
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilot Fatigue
Has anyone had the unpleasant experience of operating some of the 3 sector 12 hour regional patterns with no break ?
There are a couple on the roster now that involve a 12 hour 30 min duty, during which time there is no provision for crews to have even a 15 min break - i.e. they are either flying or doing paperwork/aircraft setup for the entire duty, even eating at the controls, with no break for more than 12 hours. The only time you leave the flightdeck is for "Physiological reasons", or a pre-flight walk-around check.
Many longer flights have limitations of 8 hours at the controls before a minimum relief break, but the regional flights somehow don't have this protection.
CAD have been informed several times now, but so far have taken the attitude that the duty is legal because it falls within the Flight Time Limitations (which they approve).
What will it take for someone to apply some common sense to this ?
There are a couple on the roster now that involve a 12 hour 30 min duty, during which time there is no provision for crews to have even a 15 min break - i.e. they are either flying or doing paperwork/aircraft setup for the entire duty, even eating at the controls, with no break for more than 12 hours. The only time you leave the flightdeck is for "Physiological reasons", or a pre-flight walk-around check.
Many longer flights have limitations of 8 hours at the controls before a minimum relief break, but the regional flights somehow don't have this protection.
CAD have been informed several times now, but so far have taken the attitude that the duty is legal because it falls within the Flight Time Limitations (which they approve).
What will it take for someone to apply some common sense to this ?
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rice Pudding, with due respect to you but nothing is going to be done about these and other patterns until pilots (that is Captains AND First Officers) submit ASR's on specific patterns and notify the JRC to that effect.
Until crews get over their reticence to submit paper work then you may as well piss into the wind.
Until crews get over their reticence to submit paper work then you may as well piss into the wind.
We've been doing these in KA for about 20 years or so. I do have an opinion on them, but I'm just too knackered to comment right now.
I wonder where CX got the idea from?
I wonder where CX got the idea from?
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: asia
Age: 60
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Several of these rostered patterns have been the subject of many ASRs, and MORs. When an MOR is filed, CAD are notified, so they are well aware of the situation, and it is causing the company alot of grief.
But so far the response from CAD has been to attempt to cover themselves by accusing some aircrew of operating while fatigued !
Rice Pudding is correct that as long as the duty falls within the FTLs then no rules have technically been broken.
Tread carefully with this. Fatigue is a subject that is rarely mentioned in accident reports, and flies in the face of productivity. It is far easier to make an example of an individual for alledgedly operating while fatigued than to fix the problem and reduce productivity.
But so far the response from CAD has been to attempt to cover themselves by accusing some aircrew of operating while fatigued !
Rice Pudding is correct that as long as the duty falls within the FTLs then no rules have technically been broken.
Tread carefully with this. Fatigue is a subject that is rarely mentioned in accident reports, and flies in the face of productivity. It is far easier to make an example of an individual for alledgedly operating while fatigued than to fix the problem and reduce productivity.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When you sign in, work out your duty day. If you are delayed on the last sector and cannot make it to the last destination with the time allotted, STOP. You are too fatigued. Go to the hotel.
If you have an incident, do you think CX will protect you while operating into discretion? You will be the scapegoat.
Now that you have stranded a planeload of passengers, the roster will change. Until this happens, expect the status quo. No amount of ASR/MOR’s will change this until an aircraft is parked. Shame it has to be this way but that is whom we work for.
Until this happens, expect many regional patterns to be rostered within minutes of the duty day limit.
If you have an incident, do you think CX will protect you while operating into discretion? You will be the scapegoat.
Now that you have stranded a planeload of passengers, the roster will change. Until this happens, expect the status quo. No amount of ASR/MOR’s will change this until an aircraft is parked. Shame it has to be this way but that is whom we work for.
Until this happens, expect many regional patterns to be rostered within minutes of the duty day limit.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: asia
Age: 60
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've often thought it odd that they have a flight time limitation, but we are allowed to exceed it, and do so on a regular basis. Just by asking the crew.
Imagine if we were allowed to exceed, say, aircraft limitations, or annual leave. Yet as soon as flight crew draw their concerns to the attention of CAD, the flight crew themselves are made a scapegoat.
There's some serious butt covering going on there.
Imagine if we were allowed to exceed, say, aircraft limitations, or annual leave. Yet as soon as flight crew draw their concerns to the attention of CAD, the flight crew themselves are made a scapegoat.
There's some serious butt covering going on there.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: heads down trying to figure out Chinese RVSM
Posts: 200
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I recall a similar incident where a crew were rostered HKG-SIN-BKK-HKG all in one day. Weather was fine ex HKG, however forecast for arrival into SIN was TSRA etc.
When they landed, the flight to BKK was delayed due to heavy rains and waiting for the TS to dissipate. They were airborne approximately an hour later, and on their way to BKK, the Capt. decided he wasn't going to complete the BKK-HKG sector by going into discretion.
The F/O supported the Captain's decision, so upon arrival into BKK, the Capt. informed the gate staff that he wanted all the pax onboard and seated, cargo doors closed by a certain time otherwise he wasn't pushing back.
Sure enough, in the typical relaxed manner of the BKK staff, they boarded the flight leisurely...
When the time given by the Capt. expired, he and the F/O packed their bags, asked the passengers (via the ground staff) to disembark once again, as the crew were done for the day.
I was operating a HKG-BKK flight (overnight) later that afternoon, and whilst over Vietnam, we received an ACARS message from Crew Control that our duty had changed and we were now swapping aircraft to fly back these disrupted pax. No big deal - we landed, and swapped planes....mind you, first time I ever saw the ground staff telling me to hurry up as they were 'running with their heads cut off'.
A few days later I spoke with the Capt. who made his decision not to go into discretion and asked him if he was called to the 3rd Floor for tea and scones - his reply was 'No'. Nobody questioned his decision.
Now, in light of all this, I'll admit, I have been a bit laxed in rereading Vol.1, however I heard from another cohort that Discretion is now something that the Company can ask the Captain to undertake whereas in the past they (The Company) could not 'suggest' it - only the Capt. could.
If this is truly the case, I guess your 'protection' on a recorded line is that you use the words "fatigued" and refuse to continue "in the interest of safety", but be prepared to explain yourself on the 3rd Floor.
When they landed, the flight to BKK was delayed due to heavy rains and waiting for the TS to dissipate. They were airborne approximately an hour later, and on their way to BKK, the Capt. decided he wasn't going to complete the BKK-HKG sector by going into discretion.
The F/O supported the Captain's decision, so upon arrival into BKK, the Capt. informed the gate staff that he wanted all the pax onboard and seated, cargo doors closed by a certain time otherwise he wasn't pushing back.
Sure enough, in the typical relaxed manner of the BKK staff, they boarded the flight leisurely...
When the time given by the Capt. expired, he and the F/O packed their bags, asked the passengers (via the ground staff) to disembark once again, as the crew were done for the day.
I was operating a HKG-BKK flight (overnight) later that afternoon, and whilst over Vietnam, we received an ACARS message from Crew Control that our duty had changed and we were now swapping aircraft to fly back these disrupted pax. No big deal - we landed, and swapped planes....mind you, first time I ever saw the ground staff telling me to hurry up as they were 'running with their heads cut off'.
A few days later I spoke with the Capt. who made his decision not to go into discretion and asked him if he was called to the 3rd Floor for tea and scones - his reply was 'No'. Nobody questioned his decision.
Now, in light of all this, I'll admit, I have been a bit laxed in rereading Vol.1, however I heard from another cohort that Discretion is now something that the Company can ask the Captain to undertake whereas in the past they (The Company) could not 'suggest' it - only the Capt. could.
If this is truly the case, I guess your 'protection' on a recorded line is that you use the words "fatigued" and refuse to continue "in the interest of safety", but be prepared to explain yourself on the 3rd Floor.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Inside the roster matrix
Posts: 617
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hellenic aviator,
You have hit the nail on the head. I have been almost told to go into discretion on several occasions, not been give a day room on a 7hr split and been told that I am not fatigued when I felt sick with tiredness and clearly was.
I fully realise that there are commercial pressures, but we are not machines and as has been mentioned - always the butt of the blame culture when it goes tits-up.
You have hit the nail on the head. I have been almost told to go into discretion on several occasions, not been give a day room on a 7hr split and been told that I am not fatigued when I felt sick with tiredness and clearly was.
I fully realise that there are commercial pressures, but we are not machines and as has been mentioned - always the butt of the blame culture when it goes tits-up.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: mexico
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"during which time there is no provision for crews to have even a 15 min break"
"even eating at the controls"
Boy, you CX guys are precious little flowers arent you.
At first I thought this opening post was tongue in cheek but you guys are serious!!!! Holy moly batman.
How would you survive a 5 sector day, 4 day pattern along the east coast of the US in winter with de ice on every departure, NO FOOD served onboard at all and the FO sprinting to mcdonalds during 30 min turns.
Boy, its tough at CX.
"even eating at the controls"
Boy, you CX guys are precious little flowers arent you.
At first I thought this opening post was tongue in cheek but you guys are serious!!!! Holy moly batman.
How would you survive a 5 sector day, 4 day pattern along the east coast of the US in winter with de ice on every departure, NO FOOD served onboard at all and the FO sprinting to mcdonalds during 30 min turns.
Boy, its tough at CX.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Zapatas Blood, cx is not a low cost carrier. Given your description of an "East Coast day" perhaps your's is. Would you have us come down to your level of conditions or would you prefer your conditions to be improved to that enjoyed by others. Is this not why most aspire to the majors in the States? We have all done our apprenticeship of "Easy Coast "days to get here, is it not incumbent of us to see that those conditions are still here when your time comes?
At present our conditions (both policy and contractual) are under attack, some of it in areas that we believe has safety implications. In this I do not talk of menial items of discontent like meal breaks etc but, by way of example, proposed changes to FDP limits for Ultra Long Haul ops over multiple time zones with reduction to our layovers / rest / number of crew / quality of accomodation etc. It would be wrong of us to idly stand by and see those conditions eroded without raising a voice.
You quote an arduous 5 day pattern. Perhaps you could ask yourself how you would deal with a HKG JFK HKG with rest periods that have you reporting for the last sector in a "comfortably numb" state of consciousness with the deicing and taxiing debarcle that is so often the case in NY. Conversely try a six day pattern HKG ANC DFW ATL DFW ANC HKG with lip service being paid to physiological rostering.
A rising tide raises all ships. The opposite also holds true.
At present our conditions (both policy and contractual) are under attack, some of it in areas that we believe has safety implications. In this I do not talk of menial items of discontent like meal breaks etc but, by way of example, proposed changes to FDP limits for Ultra Long Haul ops over multiple time zones with reduction to our layovers / rest / number of crew / quality of accomodation etc. It would be wrong of us to idly stand by and see those conditions eroded without raising a voice.
You quote an arduous 5 day pattern. Perhaps you could ask yourself how you would deal with a HKG JFK HKG with rest periods that have you reporting for the last sector in a "comfortably numb" state of consciousness with the deicing and taxiing debarcle that is so often the case in NY. Conversely try a six day pattern HKG ANC DFW ATL DFW ANC HKG with lip service being paid to physiological rostering.
A rising tide raises all ships. The opposite also holds true.
Last edited by fire wall; 3rd Feb 2010 at 03:28.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Luxury..
We used to dream of 5 sector days....
ZB. You're either missing the point completely or your post is a wind-up. Most airlines these days say they put safety first and so the increasing trend to reduce protections provided by Flight Time Limitations sort of flies in the face of that part of the "mission statement".
How pilots from one airline would cope with the operational challenges of another has got nothing to do with improving the safety of our industry. That, surely, is the point of discussing subjects such as fatigue on forums like this.
Right, must dash, off to start my 30 sector day and my toast has gone cold damn it - that's all I'll get 'til my two pieces of cold gravel.....
STP
ZB. You're either missing the point completely or your post is a wind-up. Most airlines these days say they put safety first and so the increasing trend to reduce protections provided by Flight Time Limitations sort of flies in the face of that part of the "mission statement".
How pilots from one airline would cope with the operational challenges of another has got nothing to do with improving the safety of our industry. That, surely, is the point of discussing subjects such as fatigue on forums like this.
Right, must dash, off to start my 30 sector day and my toast has gone cold damn it - that's all I'll get 'til my two pieces of cold gravel.....
STP
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would not surprised if ZB did in fact work for a major in the US. Just because your airline is late to the game of "race to the bottom" doesn't mean it's not going to happen. It's just a matter of when, sadly.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: mexico
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“even eating at the controls, with no break for more than 12 hours.”
You mean like on these patterns described by Hellenic - HKG-SIN-BKK-HKG?
Holy crap, how many ECAMS/EICAS situations are guys dealing with in the cruise on a 2-hour sector that you cant pull out a Sports Illustrated and munch on fine CX catering?
“Zapatas Blood, cx is not a low cost carrier. Given your description of an "East Coast day" perhaps your's is.”
Was? Nope, used to fly for a full service rinky dink legacy outfit. Sorry to burst your bubble on that one.
“At present our conditions (both policy and contractual) are under attack.”
Really. And you don’t think that applies to nearly EVERY other airline pilot on the planet, most of whom are not paid the sort of dough you guys are to start with?
“Perhaps you could ask yourself how you would deal with a HKG JFK HKG)”
I would imagine it would be awful. But that’s not what was referred to by the opening post of this thread. It started with some schmuck bleating about how tiring a 6 hour 3 sector day would be.
Get a life you soft CX drivers. Don’t make me laugh.
You mean like on these patterns described by Hellenic - HKG-SIN-BKK-HKG?
Holy crap, how many ECAMS/EICAS situations are guys dealing with in the cruise on a 2-hour sector that you cant pull out a Sports Illustrated and munch on fine CX catering?
“Zapatas Blood, cx is not a low cost carrier. Given your description of an "East Coast day" perhaps your's is.”
Was? Nope, used to fly for a full service rinky dink legacy outfit. Sorry to burst your bubble on that one.
“At present our conditions (both policy and contractual) are under attack.”
Really. And you don’t think that applies to nearly EVERY other airline pilot on the planet, most of whom are not paid the sort of dough you guys are to start with?
“Perhaps you could ask yourself how you would deal with a HKG JFK HKG)”
I would imagine it would be awful. But that’s not what was referred to by the opening post of this thread. It started with some schmuck bleating about how tiring a 6 hour 3 sector day would be.
Get a life you soft CX drivers. Don’t make me laugh.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: No where
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Zapatas. Perhaps you could focus your energy in agitating against your OWN company to raise your conditions closer to ours. We have our own issues to deal with, and so do you. Worry about your issues...ok? 