Is being a pilot still a worthwhile career for newcomers?

[wakeupcall]

Is being a pilot still a worthwhile career for newcomers?

Hi everyone,

I am a 22 yr old wannabe CX pilot, currently done university and applying for the CPP (I am a local HK). I am questioning whether the pilot profession is still worthwhile for young people like me . (Or, should I just keep flying ONLY as a hobby?) I have listed several (monetary) concerns that I have for this profession. (Now, I realize it is hard and stressful to be an airline pilot. This is why I have to make sure the efforts I put in now are worthwhile) So, I hope everyone can give me some help and share his/her opinions. Thanks!

(Note: I did not say I want to be a pilot because of money (clearly...it is not possible). I just want to do what I love, have a loving family in the future, and at least live comfortably (middle to upper middle class..). It is the last point that I worry about. I have concerns about this profession. Keep this in mind when you read the following. When I am 55, it will be year 2042. )

a)The pay (or pay cut)
I did some research in this forum and found out that the CX pay scale has been deteriorating over the last 16 years: from the A scale to the B scale (year 1993) and recently to another confusing pay-scale with RA65. Now, when I look at the numbers of this confusing pay scale, I think they still compare fairly well with other professions out there (although not as many as it used to be). But, how likely is this “deteriorating trend” going to continue overtime? Is this as low as it can go? How likely will another lower pay scale be introduced in 10 years time? A career is around 30 years long, and I would not want to find myself switching out in the middle.

b)Inflation
Again, when I look at the salary of a FO/SFO of this new scale, I still think they are good numbers compared to many jobs out there. But, these numbers will be not be as great in 10 to 15+ years if they don’t keep up with the inflation. My questions are: do you guys get a 2% raise every year? (Just like this year for HKG based staff) If not, how about a bigger % raise every few year? And, how likely is that? Or, does the management simply let inflation deteriorate the living standard of pilots?

c)Bored of flying?
For those working now, do you still love flying? Does the excitement wear off after 4-5 years in the job? How long does it take to get bored (if at all)? Even though I love flying now… but, if the feeling is going to die off after a few years and the pay keeps going down….then I wouldn’t want to be in this profession in the first place… I can just keep flying as a hobby.


In summary, I am questioning whether the pilot profession is still worthwhile for young people like me. It seems like I have already answered my own questions. But, I would like to keep an open mind and see everyone’s opinions. Am I being overly pessimistic? Where can I get more opinions? I used to think that a CX pilot should have a great future with the rapid economic growth of Asia. On the other hand, I am concern about pay cut, inflation, the advent of low cost carriers, and that the future advances in autopilot might take more responsibilities (and more money?) away from the pilots.

Sure, some people might argue I should do what I love for my living. But, there should be a limit. (And, this limit will be different for each person, considering his/her opportunity cost from not pursuing other more lucrative professions.) The LAST THING that I want to have in 10 to 15 + years is to be away from my family 50% of the time while making an undesirable living (and got bored of flying). Sadly, this is already happening in the US at a regional level. (I am referring to the Buffalo Plane Crash this year).

To me, it just seems like this profession is going to attract wannabes, no matter how low the pay will get. Everyone must have dreamed of flying. But, I do respect pilots for protecting passengers’ safety in the air!


Thanks for reading and for your help!
I also welcome PM.

[broadband circuit]

The name says it all

wakeupcall - what an appropriate handle.

Normally I tell wannabes to go away to the wannabes forum, but you have done a commendable amount of research, and deserve an answer.

a)

Is this as low as it can go?

We thought B-Scale was as low as it could go, then there was "Freighter Scale", then "Unified Scale".

But it's not just salary, there are other side benefits as well. Admittedly, LEPs don't get housing (except as a Captain) or education, but other things like staff travel & medical are constantly being slowly degraded.

When economic times are tough, we get bombarded with the phrase "market forces" as an excuse to attack our conditions & pay, yet during the good times, they are very good at resisting those same "market forces"

b)

Or, does the management simply let inflation deteriorate the living standard of pilots?

Short answer: Yes.

Long Answer: Yes. See a) above.

c)

For those working now, do you still love flying?

Personally, yes, although over a whole career (CX & pre-CX), there are ups & downs, with times you want to walk away, and other times you re-discover your love of flying. On balance, enjoyment factor has come out on top for me in 20+ years. With RA 65, you'll be able (in theory) to ask me again in another 20 years.


As you say, a personal career decision. Talk with your relative, he'll have a better insight than you give him credit for.


The best description I've ever heard about working at CX is this:

It's good when your near the jets, bad when you're near the buildings.

Very true


Good Luck

[Lowkoon]

My two cents worth, I guess the industry is going through a paradigm shift where we are realising that the 'career' is becoming a job, and not one that you do for the money. Can anyone else name an 'in demand' career where we are earning less now than we did in the 80's?

The hey day for aviation is well and truely over, but those of us still in it find this hard to accept, (understandably). What was once a desireable career and lifestyle has slowly been chipped away to the 'sweat shop' flying conditions offered by low cost carriers the world over. The flow on effect from that, is that management compare our salaries to those of the LCCs, and terms and conditions are gradually being erroded industry wide. Resentment sets in as management conveniently dont apply these same erroding conditions to themselves, quite the opposite, they are compensated for reducing our conditions, ie they are payed more if they find a way to pay us less.

If you want to be a pilot, then be a pilot. If you want to be a high flying aviator with an enviable lifestyle, with incredible perks and all the trimmings fortune can afford you, and the time off to enjoy it, then build a time machine and go back 30 years.

I would never encourage a family member to follow this career, and I know I am not alone in this sentiment, nor am I proud of it. As for the trend in conditions, there is nothing on the horizon that will change the downward direction. Expect further cost cuts and negative pressure on wages and conditions. Airline profits the world over have evapourated. The only area of positive growth wage wise for the last 20 years is management wages. The ratio of management wages to employee wages in this industry is the only positive wage trend. Dont do it for the money.

No doubt I am about to cop some flack from the novice, 'star in the eye, I fly a big jet' types. Bring it on you deluded nancy boys!

[wakeupcall]

Thanks

Thanks for those that replied. I was thinking of posting my concerns in the wannabe forum, but I really want to hear the opinions from those currently working in CX / other airlines. Thanks again!

[jed_thrust]

I have been flying for more than 30 years: approximately half with the military and the other half here in HKG. The following quote sums up my feelings perfectly:

I would never encourage a family member to follow this career, and I know I am not alone in this sentiment, nor am I proud of it

Simple as that...




Edited to add: There is a quote from someone that goes along the lines of: "Find a job that you love and you will never have to work a day in your life". I suspect many, if not all of us, started out like this, but the brutal reality is that being an airline pilot now is a very tough gig. Can you think of one other profession where you are not allowed to take your skills and experience to another employer?

[holdmetight]

you are not allowed to take your skills and experience to another employer

why wouldn't you be allowed to do that?

[4PW's]

he was not good enough for any other careers other than to be a pilot…

Windup.

Surprised you all fell for it.

[Lowkoon]

I thought that comment gave the post even more credibility. Do you know any 'outstanding intellects' amongst us that gave up a budding career in astro physics to tackle the intellectual challenge of flying a circuit in a 152? Ever wondered if university doctorates are multiple choice like ATPL's? Rocket science it aint. Common sense, situational awareness and experience cant be taught, are never quantified and tested, but are the things that save asses. We could all name examples of intellects that can calculate the gravity influence of planets on the speed of light, but cant tie their own laces. Take his comment as a compliment.

[Basil]

I realize it is hard and stressful to be an airline pilot

In general I did not find civil aviation stressful, however, I have flown for one company which seems to go out of its way to make it so

[broadband circuit]

Astrophysics

I wouldn't necessarily call them 'outstanding intellects', but I know lots of pilots at CX that gave up other careers to follow their love of flying.

In fact, I even know of a few that were/are qualified to pursue a career in astrophysics.

To keep perspective on the debate, we used to be run by a nuclear physicist, and look where that got us........

[Lowkoon]

BC, thats the point. Academic qualifications dont convert into success in this career, in fact, my experience is that it is quite the opposite. Your comments support my observation that academic qualifications do not translate into being a good operator, or manager for that matter, therefore, whether intended as a wind up or not, wakeup call's original comment was actually complimentary, even if his original intent wasn't.

I have found the 3 and 4 times tables far more useful in my flying career than calculus and complex numbers.

[SIC]

he was not good enough for any other careers other than to be a pilot

I love this statement. You just answered your question. HAHAHAha

Used to be that you had to be the best of the best, you had to get through a tough selection process where you had to beat hundreds of guys to it, you had to have flown Air Force jets and gone to war etc etc.

Now all you need is :

1.Being dumb enough to not be able to follow any other career.
2. Enough cash to buy a pilots licence - which they will give to anyone these days - ( 9/11 hijackers being a prime example)

[Arcla]

Wake up call...buddy...

When i started flying i had no questions about any of the crap you are talking about. All i wanted to do was fly! Fullstop.

You clearly have no passion or love for flying.

So - don't.


If you are simply looking for a career then Cathay is not for you. You will find yourself in a job for which you have no love and no passion and Cathay is certainly NOT the place you will find these.

Do us all a favour and go and become something else.

Sorry.

[wakeupcall]

Thank you everyone for your help.

My thoughts:

“You clearly have no passion or love for flying.”

Just because I list out my monetary concerns, this does not mean I have no passion for flying.

There are many ways to “rank” careers:
For some, how fun the job is would get a “90% to 100%” weight.
For others, how fun the job is would only get a “30% to 40%” weight.

Different people have different priorities.

I come from the latter group, and hence my situation/outcome will be different than yours (Even though we both love flying)

(Of course, I understand some things are just hard to quantify. Humans aren't computers. We pick our "best" decision based on both logic AND feelings. But, this is another story)


“He was not good enough for any other career other than flying”

Again, I said he was an exception. I like to think of pilots as smart beings. I think many of you here can succeed in other careers too.

But, if the profession continues to deteriorate, then in 30 years time (just a random number), won't you think it may be dominated by people who are not good enough for anything other than flying?

[KAG]

We'll be out of oil in 20 years so that will be the end of it anyway.

Well, that really is a possibility.
It would be foolish not taking into account the fuel factor.

A future pilot should get all the information before making a decision. I would do some more research about fuel if I were you...
You will always find optimistic individuals who will say it's going to be fine because whatever reason. They may be right... Maybe.
Watch out.

[wongsuzie]

Have to say it: and we look like ****e!! Really I compare my sister who is one year older, but I look tens years older than her.
Sad fact flying accelrates the aging process.

factor that in..

[FOCX]

KAG, I think you'll find DB was joking. If oil does run out they'll have found another fuel to replace it, if not we're all dooooommed I wouldn't be making a career decision based on oil availability as a factor!

[KAG]

KAG, I think you'll find DB was joking.

I am not.

Anyway let the future be the judge, because for now any guess is as good as any other.

Sorry but this factor brings some more uncertainty to this career, not admitting it is simply denialism.

[poina]

I had an old girlfriend tell me 25+ years ago, "You don't work", I said, what do you mean I have to go tomorrow, She said" You always say you have to go flying, not you have to go to work". If you have that feeling about aviation, Go for it! If not, find something else.

[FOCX]

KAG, if there's going to be no oil in 20 yrs the world is going to come to a screeching halt, I don't think so and I'm not in denial! They will have a replacement or we are all in deep trouble regardless of your area of work and again, I'm not anywhere near convinced that will happen.