DFO's Letter to Crew
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sirhcttarp,
Hats off to you sir. One of the most accurate posts to date.
All FO's & SO's need to read the quote above.
You have nailed it.. 
Don't sign anything until the AOA message comes out which explains all of this.
Hats off to you sir. One of the most accurate posts to date.
Scenario B - fleet expansion continues in 2010
Case 1 - all capt signs cos 08, all fo/so stay on cos 99
For us: All capts turning 55 stays on thereby triggering BPP for junior FO's. For company: Crewing needs increases, and payroll has to pay sr. capt year 18 salary + BPP + command courses offered to crew new aircraft.
Result: very expensive!!!
Case 1 - all capt signs cos 08, all fo/so stay on cos 99
For us: All capts turning 55 stays on thereby triggering BPP for junior FO's. For company: Crewing needs increases, and payroll has to pay sr. capt year 18 salary + BPP + command courses offered to crew new aircraft.
Result: very expensive!!!
Anyway you look at it... the worst case scenario for company and funnily the best case scenario for us is if all capts sign to COS08 and everyone else stay on COS99!!! It is interesting that the company has put itself in a situation where the crew and the company don't have a common interest. It's going to be a never ending battle this way. It'll take enlightened managers to come up with a solution that has the interest of the company and crew as the ultimate goal.
Don't sign anything until the AOA message comes out which explains all of this.
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Pathetic
Management at CX really are pathetic amateurs. They try to pull the "same team same dream" thing with unpaid leave but then say if you're willing to accept lesser contractual conditions you're excused from doing unpaid leave!
You don't need to be a rocket scientist with a boroscope to see through it.
off Nick.
You don't need to be a rocket scientist with a boroscope to see through it.
off Nick.
Last edited by WeakForce; 21st Apr 2009 at 09:47.
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Sort of related questions.
I am already on Cos08 and my contract says I will get BPP "in case of retention of captains beyond the Retirement Age" as long as I'm not CAT D or don't decline command. It also says that "In case of recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry, the next most senior Second Officer who, as of the date of joining of such First Officer, has completed 42 months of service and who is suitable for promotion will receive First Officer Bypass Pay in the form of a Junior First Officer's salary".
Is Cos99 any different? Does "Retirement Age" mean the RA 65 on my contract or the RA on the Captains contract? Or is this what the SO court case is about? If so why is that limited to SO's on CoS99?
Thanks
I am already on Cos08 and my contract says I will get BPP "in case of retention of captains beyond the Retirement Age" as long as I'm not CAT D or don't decline command. It also says that "In case of recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry, the next most senior Second Officer who, as of the date of joining of such First Officer, has completed 42 months of service and who is suitable for promotion will receive First Officer Bypass Pay in the form of a Junior First Officer's salary".
Is Cos99 any different? Does "Retirement Age" mean the RA 65 on my contract or the RA on the Captains contract? Or is this what the SO court case is about? If so why is that limited to SO's on CoS99?
Thanks
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Rook,
I don't think you will get BPP anyway.
From Vol 1:
Age Related Restrictions
a. In accordance with the HKCAD exemption pilots who have attained their 60th birthday may continue to operate as long as the following conditions are met:
i. The pilot has not attainded his 65th birthday.
ii. The pilot acts as the pilot in command or as a co-pilot in an operation with more than one pilot and he is the only pilot at the controls who has attained his 60th birthday.
NO more BPP for COS08.
I don't think you will get BPP anyway.
From Vol 1:
Age Related Restrictions
a. In accordance with the HKCAD exemption pilots who have attained their 60th birthday may continue to operate as long as the following conditions are met:
i. The pilot has not attainded his 65th birthday.
ii. The pilot acts as the pilot in command or as a co-pilot in an operation with more than one pilot and he is the only pilot at the controls who has attained his 60th birthday.
NO more BPP for COS08.
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Don't sign anything until the AOA message comes out which explains all of this
Could somebody explain my scenario regarding CoS99 BPP:
Let's say I'm FO number 200 (for arguments sake!) on the Aircrew Seniority list..
Captain XYZ is 54 yo,decides to sign CoS08, and work until 65, but then calls it quits and retires at 64..
Question..any idea how long (+/-) before I'm eligable for BPP, should 70% off ALL cpt's decide to sign over to CoS08..
Once I reach this assumed date..I then receive Y1 capt salary UNTIL capt XYZ actually retires at 64?
Say I do my command 3years from now, whilst I'm ALREADY in receipt of BPP, I keep receiving BPP (until capt XYZ retires at 64)+my own capts salary (incremental) - correct?
What if I do my command BEFORE I become eligable for BBP?
Is this whole BPP thing about timing?
It might be transparent for some here, but I find the whole BPP-thing very confusing
NC or any other guru care to comment?
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I'm really having trouble deciding here what to do (NOT) , but if you are .....I SUGGEST THAT YOU CALL SICK, through the period 30 April , then you will not have to put your request into crew direct , and avoid having to deal with this absolutey ridiculous AMBUSH .
The first shot has been fired boys and girls , this aint over its only the beginning ......STAND FIRM ,NO AND NO
I just want to ask one question more ...
Why on earth would you want to work for this company over 55 unless you were desperate !! ? THINK ABOUT IT , I surely ain't , no effen way ....:
The first shot has been fired boys and girls , this aint over its only the beginning ......STAND FIRM ,NO AND NO
I just want to ask one question more ...
Why on earth would you want to work for this company over 55 unless you were desperate !! ? THINK ABOUT IT , I surely ain't , no effen way ....:
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AD POSSE AD ESSE,
Sorry for the late reply.
AOA update was out at 6pm as I'm sure your aware of by now.
To answer your question regarding BPP hongkongpilot is correct.
Once you gain your command you will lose BPP & restart the salary scale as Capt Yr 1 (which is actually the same place as what BPP is).
Sorry for the late reply.
AOA update was out at 6pm as I'm sure your aware of by now.
To answer your question regarding BPP hongkongpilot is correct.
Once you gain your command you will lose BPP & restart the salary scale as Capt Yr 1 (which is actually the same place as what BPP is).
Last edited by Harbour Dweller; 21st Apr 2009 at 12:34.
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ad posse ad esse
I am sure more official guidance will be forthcoming but my answers follow...
Question..any idea how long (+/-) before I'm eligable for BPP, should 70% off ALL cpt's decide to sign over to CoS08..
About 50 CNs per year will reach 55 - so 70% is 35, assuming an even distribution of signers, about 3 years(given 200 off). But for many reasons I suspect the % of CNs signing will be much higher than 70% for any over 50. So more likely to be 2 years. Note, there are already around 120 CNs who are 55 or over - some C+T, the rest Frtr! ( so maths is 120 + 3 * 35 and 120 + 50*2)
Once I reach this assumed date..I then receive Y1 capt salary UNTIL capt XYZ actually retires at 64?
No - you receive BPP(yes at CN1 level) until you become a CN. If the number of extended captains is ABC, then the top ABC FOs(non Cat D) on the seniority list will be entitled to BPP - unless they have signed over to CoS08. Once you become a CN, the entitlement to BPP for XYZ passes down to the ABC'th person(assuming on CoS99).
Say I do my command 3years from now, whilst I'm ALREADY in receipt of BPP, I keep receiving BPP (until capt XYZ retires at 64)+my own capts salary (incremental) - correct?
No, you lose BPP as soon as you start receiving your Command pay - and your command increment will be probably Cn1( depends on longevity - discuss another time!)
What if I do my command BEFORE I become eligable for BBP?
Unlikely - there are already about 60-70 extendees generating BPP and likely to be another 40-50 (frtr CNs>54) assuming positive outcome of hearings. So by year's end there could be around 150 FOs on BPP - add another 50 per year - hard to imagine you not being in the top 150-200 before your command?
Is this whole BPP thing about timing?
My handle is Number Cruncher not Mr Cynical - for cynicism you will need to ask elsewhere;-)
Question..any idea how long (+/-) before I'm eligable for BPP, should 70% off ALL cpt's decide to sign over to CoS08..
About 50 CNs per year will reach 55 - so 70% is 35, assuming an even distribution of signers, about 3 years(given 200 off). But for many reasons I suspect the % of CNs signing will be much higher than 70% for any over 50. So more likely to be 2 years. Note, there are already around 120 CNs who are 55 or over - some C+T, the rest Frtr! ( so maths is 120 + 3 * 35 and 120 + 50*2)
Once I reach this assumed date..I then receive Y1 capt salary UNTIL capt XYZ actually retires at 64?
No - you receive BPP(yes at CN1 level) until you become a CN. If the number of extended captains is ABC, then the top ABC FOs(non Cat D) on the seniority list will be entitled to BPP - unless they have signed over to CoS08. Once you become a CN, the entitlement to BPP for XYZ passes down to the ABC'th person(assuming on CoS99).
Say I do my command 3years from now, whilst I'm ALREADY in receipt of BPP, I keep receiving BPP (until capt XYZ retires at 64)+my own capts salary (incremental) - correct?
No, you lose BPP as soon as you start receiving your Command pay - and your command increment will be probably Cn1( depends on longevity - discuss another time!)
What if I do my command BEFORE I become eligable for BBP?
Unlikely - there are already about 60-70 extendees generating BPP and likely to be another 40-50 (frtr CNs>54) assuming positive outcome of hearings. So by year's end there could be around 150 FOs on BPP - add another 50 per year - hard to imagine you not being in the top 150-200 before your command?
Is this whole BPP thing about timing?
My handle is Number Cruncher not Mr Cynical - for cynicism you will need to ask elsewhere;-)
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How does a 63 year old do a line check on a 60 year old?, Has to be three man crew according ANO?(can't have two 60+ yrs at the controls at same time)
Can someone confirm if an F/O, S/O will get bypass pay on cos99 if anyone one on cos 08 older than 55?
Can someone confirm if an F/O, S/O will get bypass pay on cos99 if anyone one on cos 08 older than 55?
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Can someone confirm if an F/O, S/O will get bypass pay on cos99 if anyone one on cos 08 older than 55?
It will be easier to find it there rather than in court later !
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what the f$%^
Hey quick question to you all.
Some guy talking to some other guys etc etc etc was reading into GMA's letter that if a cpt signs over to cos08 he no longer has a NRA of 55? now it becomes 65?
This might be the case of misleading text, then for all f/o's who do elect to stay on cos99 (which seems the logical point) they could be shafted even further as the number of captains extending past NRA will be minimal as none have yet passed 65, albeit a few are very close now.
Were these guys barking up the wrong tree or not?
NC care to shed any light on this one pls!!!!!!
Some guy talking to some other guys etc etc etc was reading into GMA's letter that if a cpt signs over to cos08 he no longer has a NRA of 55? now it becomes 65?
This might be the case of misleading text, then for all f/o's who do elect to stay on cos99 (which seems the logical point) they could be shafted even further as the number of captains extending past NRA will be minimal as none have yet passed 65, albeit a few are very close now.
Were these guys barking up the wrong tree or not?
NC care to shed any light on this one pls!!!!!!
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NC....
You seem to be in BIG demand here mate..you should start charging an hourly rate!!
Thx for making thing clearer re my Q's on BPP...
Any idea then what the time frame is or expected to be, once you start receiving BPP and getting checked out as commander??
Obviously depends on expansion etc etc, but a rough ball park ceteris paribus..
How many FO's are presently on BPP and any idea how LONG they will be receiving BPP (years/months?) before command?
You seem to be in BIG demand here mate..you should start charging an hourly rate!!
Thx for making thing clearer re my Q's on BPP...
Any idea then what the time frame is or expected to be, once you start receiving BPP and getting checked out as commander??
Obviously depends on expansion etc etc, but a rough ball park ceteris paribus..
How many FO's are presently on BPP and any idea how LONG they will be receiving BPP (years/months?) before command?
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more info
Leading edge they are barking up the wrong tree. NRA is defined in YOUR contract as 55 - what the other guy(CN) does is up to him and CX. If he signs over then HIS contract says 65, but you get BPP for anyone going over 55. Make sense? Bottom line, if you stay on CoS99 you are eligible for BPP.
APAE,
that's a work in progress. But a quick back of the fag packet calculation will help give you an idea.
Lets say right now there are 100 guys working 55+. Lets say 50 new 55 year olds per annum for next decade. Lets assume everyone works till 65. I don't have the seniority list in front of me but lets assume about 1200 FO/SOs on CoS99.
So as of 1/5/09 100 FOs on BPP.
1/5/10 150 FOs on BPP etc etc until it peaks at a theoretical max of 500 FOs on BPP on 1/5/2017. I say theoretical max as that assumes every CN extends all the way to 65 with no loss of medical or early retirement. Now if the growth rate continues for the next 8 years as it has for the period 2001-2008(so taking out the Global Financial Crisis GFC) then we would have up to 400 guys upgraded. That would leave about 800 FOs on CoS99 with the top 500 receiving BPP. Extending these assumptions out a few more years, by 1/5/2023 the top 500 FOs are CoS99 AND receiving BPP - from that point on the number receiving BPP would reduce every year until 1/5/2033 when the last CoS99 FO is finally upgraded.
Now this example is extremely simplistic - it assumes a numerically constant growth rate when actual growth rate is likely percentage constant - same goes for retirements. In due course I will do a more accurate 'guesstimate'. What is certain is that if all CNs extend then junior FO/SOs on CoS99 are likely to be looking at years of BPP - in another post I quantified it at in excess of $1.5M HKD!
To answer your specific question....using my assumptions above, if you are in the bottom half of seniority then you are likely to get BPP from about 5 years before command - this assumes that 50 guys a year retire at 65 and 50 more commands due growth. If the growth rate was 0, then you would get BPP for 10 years.
NB I have ignored the problem with an available based command vs available HKG command. Save that conversation for another time;-)
APAE,
that's a work in progress. But a quick back of the fag packet calculation will help give you an idea.
Lets say right now there are 100 guys working 55+. Lets say 50 new 55 year olds per annum for next decade. Lets assume everyone works till 65. I don't have the seniority list in front of me but lets assume about 1200 FO/SOs on CoS99.
So as of 1/5/09 100 FOs on BPP.
1/5/10 150 FOs on BPP etc etc until it peaks at a theoretical max of 500 FOs on BPP on 1/5/2017. I say theoretical max as that assumes every CN extends all the way to 65 with no loss of medical or early retirement. Now if the growth rate continues for the next 8 years as it has for the period 2001-2008(so taking out the Global Financial Crisis GFC) then we would have up to 400 guys upgraded. That would leave about 800 FOs on CoS99 with the top 500 receiving BPP. Extending these assumptions out a few more years, by 1/5/2023 the top 500 FOs are CoS99 AND receiving BPP - from that point on the number receiving BPP would reduce every year until 1/5/2033 when the last CoS99 FO is finally upgraded.
Now this example is extremely simplistic - it assumes a numerically constant growth rate when actual growth rate is likely percentage constant - same goes for retirements. In due course I will do a more accurate 'guesstimate'. What is certain is that if all CNs extend then junior FO/SOs on CoS99 are likely to be looking at years of BPP - in another post I quantified it at in excess of $1.5M HKD!
To answer your specific question....using my assumptions above, if you are in the bottom half of seniority then you are likely to get BPP from about 5 years before command - this assumes that 50 guys a year retire at 65 and 50 more commands due growth. If the growth rate was 0, then you would get BPP for 10 years.
NB I have ignored the problem with an available based command vs available HKG command. Save that conversation for another time;-)
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What an absolute diabolical mess ....all created by same team same dream cx .....maniacs ,
why are you all talking about this and worrying so much , its VOLUNTARY why would you even consider this dogs breakfast to start with ......unless of course you are desperate.........
forgettaboutit (F/OS) vote no and no
why are you all talking about this and worrying so much , its VOLUNTARY why would you even consider this dogs breakfast to start with ......unless of course you are desperate.........
forgettaboutit (F/OS) vote no and no
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No Agreement on Points Mentioned in DFO Letter
This is an official reply as of 21APR09 from Flight Ops Personnel regarding B-scale CN pay for freighter CNs (paraphrased to protect the innocent): CN payscale agreement details have yet to be agreed in AOA negotiations, so, until further notice, there are no changes to the present payscales and the fact that freighter CNs will be paid freighter pay.