Maximum ATC instructions
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Maximum ATC instructions
I could have sworn that there was a limit on how many instructions ATC is suppossed to pass on to pilots. The other day while turning final I was given;
"descend and maintain xxxx, turn right heading xxx intercept the localizer R07L, speed xxx until x mile final, report established"
I also have regularly heard clearances that are followed by a frequency change in one transmission.
I thought there where internationally agreed rules against these practices, not just recommended procedures.
A little ATC insight would be appreciated. These scenarios are potentially very dangerous. I realize that the airspace and the frequency are busy but I don't think we need to revert to this sort of stuff.
"descend and maintain xxxx, turn right heading xxx intercept the localizer R07L, speed xxx until x mile final, report established"
I also have regularly heard clearances that are followed by a frequency change in one transmission.
I thought there where internationally agreed rules against these practices, not just recommended procedures.
A little ATC insight would be appreciated. These scenarios are potentially very dangerous. I realize that the airspace and the frequency are busy but I don't think we need to revert to this sort of stuff.
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Why do we get radar vectors onto 07L? By doing so ATC only save about 1 mile with a lot more comm. Would it not be better to vector everyone to Limes and then clear them for the ILS from there? Why wait until the last 10nm to sort out spacing, why not achieve the spacing before the procedure (Limes)?
I know there is an issue with the airspace around the base leg for the ILS so why not move the base leg to fix the problem? I think it would be better to fly a tight known pattern with minimal comm., than to fly a tight unknown pattern with excessive comm.
I know there is an issue with the airspace around the base leg for the ILS so why not move the base leg to fix the problem? I think it would be better to fly a tight known pattern with minimal comm., than to fly a tight unknown pattern with excessive comm.
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Its crap isnt it. Makes you work far harder than necessary when your fatigue is at its highest. It always suprises me we dont have more incidents but then again maybe you have to raise your awareness so high it serves the purpose of getting you in safely. I always wondered why I fall asleep on the train home!!
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First sign of Alzheimers, I'm afraid...
Alzheimer's disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There is NO limit as to ATC instructions,but if they do issue too many simultaneously,then why don't you do the same in your RT reply to them...
Alzheimer's disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There is NO limit as to ATC instructions,but if they do issue too many simultaneously,then why don't you do the same in your RT reply to them...
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Yes, when I shake off the cobwebs I seem to remember that a maximum of 3 items should be given by a controller, dont know where its printed though. We cannot remember more than that.
For 07 L+R approaches, I agree with Sandman, would make life a lot more simple for all concerned.
For 07 L+R approaches, I agree with Sandman, would make life a lot more simple for all concerned.
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Yeah Jizzmonkey, you're right! Cos everyone is based in Hong Kong and has the local knowledge. Lets just hope foreign airlines don't start flying into Hong Kong...
Merry Christmas, anyway, though!!!
Merry Christmas, anyway, though!!!
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"now my gripe is why (off 07) do we change to 123.8 then about 1 min later change to 119.1 with departures to the south?"
Its crap isnt it, oops said that already!! Perhaps it is time to retire from this sh1t. Oops said that as well, death is the only release from this nightmare.
Its crap isnt it, oops said that already!! Perhaps it is time to retire from this sh1t. Oops said that as well, death is the only release from this nightmare.
123.8 has the airspace from the Runway to Porpa and TD and beyond..
119.1 has the Airspace south of that line controlling the arrival flow to 07L/R
After T/O you need to call 123.8 first then switch to 119.1 if you turn south. If you keep going to TD you stay on 123.8
I'm sure smarter heads than ours have worked out this is the best way.
But it's still annoying.
119.1 has the Airspace south of that line controlling the arrival flow to 07L/R
After T/O you need to call 123.8 first then switch to 119.1 if you turn south. If you keep going to TD you stay on 123.8
I'm sure smarter heads than ours have worked out this is the best way.
But it's still annoying.
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First sign of Alzheimers, I'm afraid...
Alzheimer's disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There is NO limit as to ATC instructions,but if they do issue too many simultaneously,then why don't you do the same in your RT reply to them...
Alzheimer's disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There is NO limit as to ATC instructions,but if they do issue too many simultaneously,then why don't you do the same in your RT reply to them...
My point is not to "get even". It was to raise awareness to something that could potentially turn into an unsafe situation. That is all.
what's the problem? you KNOW you are going to get heading 040, you know you are going to get descend 1700, you know you will be cleared for the ILS and you know you will be required to report established........
grow up, it not hard.........
grow up, it not hard.........
Ever heard of confirmation bias? Much more likely to happen when you are overloaded with stuff that "you expect". You tend to overlook and ignore the actual instructions.
It is not a question of wether it is hard or easy. It is not hard gliding to the airport from 5000 feet overhead the field. But that doesn't mean you plan your fuel so that you will arrive that way.
And please guys, if you have another problem with ATC, like which departure frequency to use, then go ahead and start another thread.
Sand Man,
and then get told to go around as you turn onto 040 for the intercept.
No I was never sure why either
Would it not be better to vector everyone to Limes and then clear them for the ILS from there?
No I was never sure why either
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Basil
If ATC sort out the spacing before/at Limes and then EVERYONE fly’s the published speeds then why would you need to go around?
I'm sure this will make arrival easier for all concerned (ATC, local and foreign carriers).
and then get told to go around as you turn onto 040 for the intercept.
I'm sure this will make arrival easier for all concerned (ATC, local and foreign carriers).
Ahh thankee Jizza!
Forgot that Cxcrew control has ensured that, in particular, it has it's crews current and at their personal circadian high on every HKG arrival! Purlease...
Then again, I am older than 25.
ventilator please.
Forgot that Cxcrew control has ensured that, in particular, it has it's crews current and at their personal circadian high on every HKG arrival! Purlease...
Then again, I am older than 25.
ventilator please.
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Check out this link
http://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/AIP/AD/HK_AD2-101.pdf
and it might explain why you get so many instructions in rapid succession, especially if you are being short-cut from TD. If they were issued one at a time there is the danger of someone else transmitting just when you should have been turned onto the LLZ. Might explain a few other things too, like the proximity of the Macau approach. Pity the chart doesn't show Shenzhen too. But believe me it is on that map. Don't forget that you don't hear or necessarily see the Macau arrivals/departures on your left hand side and if they are deviating around weather. Doesn't fully explain the max no. of ATC instructions, but hopefully will provide a little insight into what's going on around you. You are not alone!! I know when I worked Approach I liked to maintain "control". That is after all what we're paid to do.
On the beach
http://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/AIP/AD/HK_AD2-101.pdf
and it might explain why you get so many instructions in rapid succession, especially if you are being short-cut from TD. If they were issued one at a time there is the danger of someone else transmitting just when you should have been turned onto the LLZ. Might explain a few other things too, like the proximity of the Macau approach. Pity the chart doesn't show Shenzhen too. But believe me it is on that map. Don't forget that you don't hear or necessarily see the Macau arrivals/departures on your left hand side and if they are deviating around weather. Doesn't fully explain the max no. of ATC instructions, but hopefully will provide a little insight into what's going on around you. You are not alone!! I know when I worked Approach I liked to maintain "control". That is after all what we're paid to do.
On the beach
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I understand, if there are efficiencies you can take advantage of in your job, you do. We all do the same thing. But I don't think that making rapidfire paragraph sized instructions are the way to go.
If it so busy that you feel multiple instructions are necessary, then as previously sugested, everyone should be spaced on base (extension south from LIMES), and left on the procedure track. Then the only instruction would be "cleared for the ILS 07L from LIMES, comply with charted speeds" If two planes are spaced at LIMES and comply with speeds, then they should be OK once they round the corner as well.
As long as everyone is back to 180 when they cross LIMES, we are talking a very small speed envelope requirement until 4nm final, where it comes down to 150-160.
If it so busy that you feel multiple instructions are necessary, then as previously sugested, everyone should be spaced on base (extension south from LIMES), and left on the procedure track. Then the only instruction would be "cleared for the ILS 07L from LIMES, comply with charted speeds" If two planes are spaced at LIMES and comply with speeds, then they should be OK once they round the corner as well.
As long as everyone is back to 180 when they cross LIMES, we are talking a very small speed envelope requirement until 4nm final, where it comes down to 150-160.
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Unreal
I can't believe we are even discussing this. If you cannot comply with 3 or more instructions then maybe you should go and work else where i.e. "Do you want fries with that". We must be the laughing stock on pprune. With two ppl in the cockpit this should NOT be a problem. Hope BA and other pilots aren't reading this
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Panza go back to sleep. Your age is really showing. If you have nothing to contribute to this conversation, then maybe you should stay out of it. It looks like you might be in over your head, so get back to the shallow end. 
A quote from Walter Sobchak seems very appropriate; "Donnie, you are out of your f***ing element, you have no frame of reference. you are like a child!"
Sorry, it just seems so appropriate.
A quote from Walter Sobchak seems very appropriate; "Donnie, you are out of your f***ing element, you have no frame of reference. you are like a child!"
Sorry, it just seems so appropriate.