Maximum ATC instructions
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- a maximum of three instructions, preferably one of them without figures, is recommended. Some controllers do tend to try and do too much in one transmission.
- clearing a/c for the approach from LIMES does not work... trust me. IT DOES NOT WORK!
- clearing a/c for the approach from LIMES does not work... trust me. IT DOES NOT WORK!
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I find it hard to believe some of the crap written here. Is it comments by idiots, or idiotic comments. ATC is busting their guts to get the aircraft spaced at minimal useful and efficient distances apart for max utilisation of airspace so you people don't have to hold etc. Limes is still close to 20 miles from touchdown and there is still lot's of fine tuning to be done between there and touch down to achieve the spacing that I was referring to above. No way can you just set it at Limes and then sit back and watch...the spacing would be all over the place. Why don't some of you experts come over to the centre and plug in and see what really goes on. If a 2/3/4 person crew can't cope with an anticipated clearance for an approach then maybe you should be doing something else. I note that the Asian (non native English speaking) carriers normally cope pretty well. Back to sleep!
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- a maximum of three instructions, preferably one of them without figures, is recommended. Some controllers do tend to try and do too much in one transmission.
- clearing a/c for the approach from LIMES does not work... trust me. IT DOES NOT WORK!
- clearing a/c for the approach from LIMES does not work... trust me. IT DOES NOT WORK!
Do enlighten us all with the reference and source of the "maximum of 3 instructions"..
Doing an approach from LIMES works just fine. Don't know what you are flying mate,but my aeroplane has something called speedbrakes/spoilers/boards..call it whatever you like..pull the lever,and "voila!!--Bob's your uncle!!
And for those who cannot remember more than 3 instructions..ever heard of writing down clearances on a piece of paper..it's not THAT hard..really...
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Seems to me that Hong Kong ATC has a big standardization problem. The number of different ways we are handled and different phraseology/instructions we are given keeps you second-guessing what is coming next. Funny how often controllers ask US what speed we have been assigned. Don't you guys talk to each other?
Find it especially strange the way we are often turned left off the STAR from TD to follow someone who is being short cut from the west (SIERA ?). Is that some sort of strange priority? Why wouldn't you leave us on the STAR and put the guy who is getting the short cut behind? We got a heading of 190 from GUAVA the other day for about 10 miles. 190?? I mean how does the arrival sequence get so far out of whack that you have to do that? There must be some serious queue-jumping going on to need that many extra track miles at such a late stage. I figure we had about 25 track miles added by the time we turned back up, when less than 40 miles from touch. That is some serious misjudgement.
Anyway back to the thread- 3 instructions seems good to me- heading, speed, altitude. No problem.
Find it especially strange the way we are often turned left off the STAR from TD to follow someone who is being short cut from the west (SIERA ?). Is that some sort of strange priority? Why wouldn't you leave us on the STAR and put the guy who is getting the short cut behind? We got a heading of 190 from GUAVA the other day for about 10 miles. 190?? I mean how does the arrival sequence get so far out of whack that you have to do that? There must be some serious queue-jumping going on to need that many extra track miles at such a late stage. I figure we had about 25 track miles added by the time we turned back up, when less than 40 miles from touch. That is some serious misjudgement.
Anyway back to the thread- 3 instructions seems good to me- heading, speed, altitude. No problem.
Last edited by Cafe City; 3rd Jan 2009 at 02:21.
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From the ICAO 4444 manual (Air Traffic Control Procedures)
And from CAP413
I liked the "driver" bit - thought it may apply to the Citroen Of The Skies, but then realised that vehicles have radios too. Darn.
10.1.4 If an air traffic control clearance is not suitable to
the pilot-in-command of an aircraft, he may request and, if
practicable, obtain an amended clearance.
the pilot-in-command of an aircraft, he may request and, if
practicable, obtain an amended clearance.
1.13.5 The ATS messages listed below are to be read back in full by the pilot/driver. If a readback is not received the pilot/driver will be asked to do so. Similarly, the pilot/driver is expected to request that instructions are repeated or clarified if any are not fully understood.
Taxi/Towing Instructions
Level Instructions
Heading Instructions
Speed Instructions
Airways or Route Clearances
Approach Clearances
Runway-in-Use
Clearance to Enter, Land On, Take-Off On, Backtrack, Cross, or Hold Short of
any Active Runway
SSR Operating Instructions
Altimeter Settings
VDF Information
Frequency Changes
Type of Radar Service
Transition Levels
Taxi/Towing Instructions
Level Instructions
Heading Instructions
Speed Instructions
Airways or Route Clearances
Approach Clearances
Runway-in-Use
Clearance to Enter, Land On, Take-Off On, Backtrack, Cross, or Hold Short of
any Active Runway
SSR Operating Instructions
Altimeter Settings
VDF Information
Frequency Changes
Type of Radar Service
Transition Levels
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NATS current thinking is a maximum of 2 instructions that contain numbers.This is primarily to stop level busts.Also no instructions to be given with frequency changes.
We also have to give degrees after heading instructions,and millibars when giving the QNH.Also descend to altitude has been given for years to stop confusion about the meaning of to.(or is it 2).
I can see that lot being adopted in HK.
Interesting from Cpt Underpants.
It used to be that a lot of towing around HK was done by non english speaking drivers.The driver would request in Cantonese,the assistant would then translate and write it down.You would tell the assistant and the instruction which would be given in Cantonese.The tug would then do completely the opposite you wanted.Please tell me that system has gone.It was one of the most dangerous things I have ever seen.Throw CAP 413 in the dustbin on that one.
Cafe city.
Sounds like you had a bit of gentle order swopping /avoiding action,we have too many aircraft so it's congo line time,expression of free art itis.It was painful to watch sometimes as well.
We also have to give degrees after heading instructions,and millibars when giving the QNH.Also descend to altitude has been given for years to stop confusion about the meaning of to.(or is it 2).
I can see that lot being adopted in HK.
Interesting from Cpt Underpants.
It used to be that a lot of towing around HK was done by non english speaking drivers.The driver would request in Cantonese,the assistant would then translate and write it down.You would tell the assistant and the instruction which would be given in Cantonese.The tug would then do completely the opposite you wanted.Please tell me that system has gone.It was one of the most dangerous things I have ever seen.Throw CAP 413 in the dustbin on that one.
Cafe city.
Sounds like you had a bit of gentle order swopping /avoiding action,we have too many aircraft so it's congo line time,expression of free art itis.It was painful to watch sometimes as well.
Last edited by throw a dyce; 3rd Jan 2009 at 14:52.
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Sounds like you know the place well dyce.
Similarly, when we come in from the east for 7 it always amazes me when we get bent out to the south to follow traffic that got shortened from Mango to Limes. What is the point of shortening someone if it causes someone else to get stuffed around.
They get shortened and now we come together near Sokoe so we get screwed. 
Couldn't we both have just stayed on the STAR?
I don't think its a matter of inexperienced locals as some of the worst handling I've been on the other end of has been from expat controllers. It seems they're not immune to this fuzzy logic that exists in HK. Indeed they may have passed it on to the locals.
Similarly, when we come in from the east for 7 it always amazes me when we get bent out to the south to follow traffic that got shortened from Mango to Limes. What is the point of shortening someone if it causes someone else to get stuffed around.
They get shortened and now we come together near Sokoe so we get screwed. Couldn't we both have just stayed on the STAR?I don't think its a matter of inexperienced locals as some of the worst handling I've been on the other end of has been from expat controllers. It seems they're not immune to this fuzzy logic that exists in HK. Indeed they may have passed it on to the locals.
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Stars
Must admit where ever we fly to they have STARS and we hardly ever get to fly the complete procedure. There must be a reason and I think in times of high traffic they don't really work. Personally I think ATC here in HK is very good.
Now I am standing by for some smart comment from Squawk 7700. He will STEAL someones "quote" off the internet and put it in his reply so he can look intelligent.
W*nk*r .. sorry it seems so appropriate
Now I am standing by for some smart comment from Squawk 7700. He will STEAL someones "quote" off the internet and put it in his reply so he can look intelligent.
W*nk*r .. sorry it seems so appropriate
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I'm not complaining about being taken off the Star per se Panza.
Its just the odd logic that someone is shortcut only to find 5 minutes later that a dead heat has been created that didn't exist before. Invariably its the one flying the procedure that gets shafted and gets the grand tour of the South China Sea followed by half a dozen vectors back to base.
Surely that creates a lot of extra work for you ATC guys and girls.
Its just the odd logic that someone is shortcut only to find 5 minutes later that a dead heat has been created that didn't exist before. Invariably its the one flying the procedure that gets shafted and gets the grand tour of the South China Sea followed by half a dozen vectors back to base.
Surely that creates a lot of extra work for you ATC guys and girls.
During the final stages of an approach, vectors and speed control are the only remaining tools that ATC has to achieve the fine control needed for landing spacing in traffic-congested airports. The problem for HKG is somewhat exacerbated by the geographical restrictions of adjacent airports and high terrain.
I've always thought that HKG Air Traffic have done a pretty good job. I remember some time ago, they saved two CX jet aircraft on the one night. And I personally heard them save a US carrier that blasted through the localizer on 25R enroute to an otherwise heavenly destination.
In any case the vector/speed-control commands in each terminal area seem to follow a repetitive pattern that we get use to and come to expect with exposure and experience. Linking of these commands with the final approach clearance should not come as a surprise and can be anticipated by awareness of traffic in front of and behind you.
I've always thought that HKG Air Traffic have done a pretty good job. I remember some time ago, they saved two CX jet aircraft on the one night. And I personally heard them save a US carrier that blasted through the localizer on 25R enroute to an otherwise heavenly destination.
In any case the vector/speed-control commands in each terminal area seem to follow a repetitive pattern that we get use to and come to expect with exposure and experience. Linking of these commands with the final approach clearance should not come as a surprise and can be anticipated by awareness of traffic in front of and behind you.
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Cafecity
The scenario you suggest is not the norm. It does happen at the best of airports, however other airports get lateral and vertical separation and then one aircraft gets the other runway. Obviously, we can't do that in Hk because it's written that pax aircraft land on the left and freighters on the right.
Flexibility: key to airpower.... lets not get bogged down by dogma etc etc
Flexible Response
I would have thought that a "US Carrier" going through the centerline would not be a problem as their tower is only a few hundred feet amsl. Besides with all that firepower... who is going to argue...
oops .. different US carrier... I'll get me coat...
Flexibility: key to airpower.... lets not get bogged down by dogma etc etcFlexible Response
I would have thought that a "US Carrier" going through the centerline would not be a problem as their tower is only a few hundred feet amsl. Besides with all that firepower... who is going to argue...
oops .. different US carrier... I'll get me coat...
I would have thought that a "US Carrier" going through the centerline would not be a problem as their tower is only a few hundred feet amsl. Besides with all that firepower... who is going to argue...
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Obviously, we can't do that in Hk because it's written that pax aircraft land on the left and freighters on the right.
http://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/supp/A08-08.pdf
Not sure what that has to do with my experiences of illogical sequencing decisions at HK though.
Last edited by Cafe City; 3rd Jan 2009 at 14:03.
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Cafe City
If you were turned on to a heading of 190 at GUAVA (where in all probability you would have been tracking 250), then a turn of 60 degrees to the left for about 10 miles, would give you about 10NM extra to run to LIMES, not 25 as you suggest. There are many reasons why inbound aircraft from SIERA are "dropped" in, and as a general rule, you are not privy to them. I think I could say in passing that at times, creating an easier traffic sequence for ATC is one of them. It would take many thousands of words to elucidate all of the various reasons and traffic dispositions that result in the decision being made to "shortcut" traffic from SIERA, that may result in traffic inbound from TD/GUAVA being bent to the South to accomodate.
As you point out in your last post Cafe City, "we (pax) were put on the south the other day", this is quite true. We no longer broadcast on the ATIS that freighters/BAC/GFS will land on the South runway. The ATIS now defines (under normal circumstances) that all arrivals can expect the North. What has mainly changed is that various members within the ATC group can offer/dictate that certain landings may take place on the South runway. Obviously the bulk of these will be freighters/BAC and pax aircraft parking on the South apron.....after all, we not only try and make life easier for you....but we also like to make life easier for ourselves. Bear in mind that each time a decision is made to allow a "South lander" then various bits of internal co-ordination need to take place. This of course is sometimes a waste of our efforts, because we will "offer" the South, and then it will be declined.
Part of the reasoning behind this new philosophy is that aircraft landing in trail on the North/South runway can be more closely spaced than repetitive arrivals on the North runway...a saving to you, and the less onerous taxiing after landing that this entails also, is a saving to you. The disadvantage is, that departures can be delayed, so careful reasoning takes place before random South runway arrivals are allowed.
If you were turned on to a heading of 190 at GUAVA (where in all probability you would have been tracking 250), then a turn of 60 degrees to the left for about 10 miles, would give you about 10NM extra to run to LIMES, not 25 as you suggest. There are many reasons why inbound aircraft from SIERA are "dropped" in, and as a general rule, you are not privy to them. I think I could say in passing that at times, creating an easier traffic sequence for ATC is one of them. It would take many thousands of words to elucidate all of the various reasons and traffic dispositions that result in the decision being made to "shortcut" traffic from SIERA, that may result in traffic inbound from TD/GUAVA being bent to the South to accomodate.
As you point out in your last post Cafe City, "we (pax) were put on the south the other day", this is quite true. We no longer broadcast on the ATIS that freighters/BAC/GFS will land on the South runway. The ATIS now defines (under normal circumstances) that all arrivals can expect the North. What has mainly changed is that various members within the ATC group can offer/dictate that certain landings may take place on the South runway. Obviously the bulk of these will be freighters/BAC and pax aircraft parking on the South apron.....after all, we not only try and make life easier for you....but we also like to make life easier for ourselves. Bear in mind that each time a decision is made to allow a "South lander" then various bits of internal co-ordination need to take place. This of course is sometimes a waste of our efforts, because we will "offer" the South, and then it will be declined.
Part of the reasoning behind this new philosophy is that aircraft landing in trail on the North/South runway can be more closely spaced than repetitive arrivals on the North runway...a saving to you, and the less onerous taxiing after landing that this entails also, is a saving to you. The disadvantage is, that departures can be delayed, so careful reasoning takes place before random South runway arrivals are allowed.
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Bedder believeit
Thanks for the information on the change of policy on the use of the runway; very welcomed news indeed.
Does this change also relate to departures around midnight? I believe it would be beneficial if, between 1145 and 0045 we, perversely, utilized one runway for landing and one for departures. We used to end up in the ridiculous situation of 10 Jumbos (40 engines running) waiting at J1 for a stream of Freighters to land on 07R, whilst 07L was available and unused. The reason: Freighters always land 07L....
Take the point on the wasted effort re arranging the runway change. Why not formalize what we used to (which subsequently we were told not to do) and that is request it with APP/Dir when we confirm the ATIS code. Some times there are reasons we don't want on 07R, 25L (such as windshear)
Cafe city; what I meant was if ATC get it a bit tight they just "sidestep" you across.
Does this change also relate to departures around midnight? I believe it would be beneficial if, between 1145 and 0045 we, perversely, utilized one runway for landing and one for departures. We used to end up in the ridiculous situation of 10 Jumbos (40 engines running) waiting at J1 for a stream of Freighters to land on 07R, whilst 07L was available and unused. The reason: Freighters always land 07L....
Take the point on the wasted effort re arranging the runway change. Why not formalize what we used to (which subsequently we were told not to do) and that is request it with APP/Dir when we confirm the ATIS code. Some times there are reasons we don't want on 07R, 25L (such as windshear)
Cafe city; what I meant was if ATC get it a bit tight they just "sidestep" you across.
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Liam, generally speaking most teams that I have worked with on the night shifts (covering the period 11.30pm to 12.45am tend to put all (well, most) of the freighters on the North runway, particularly if there are a few departures on the South...which there normally are. One night recently an irateish A300-600 freighter Captain rang the tower to complain about being put on the North runway during that period and said that we (ATC) were just being lazy!!!!! So it just goes to show! He also stupidly said that "this girl" (female ATCO) is always doing this...considering that we have probably 50 females rated as tower controllers, his voice recognition must be pretty good.
The normal way in which the South runway is offered is that the Tower South controller(118.4) will try to forecast ahead when there will be light(ish) departures, he/she will then advise the APP people that the South is available for XXXX, the people in the centre will have a think about it, and then will revert back to the tower in agreement or otherwise. At some point during the latter part of this decision making proccess the offer will be made to the aircraft concerned. This will normally only happen approximately 8 to 10 minutes before touchdown. In addition, during periods of heavy arrival traffic, then the APP people can dictate to the tower that the South runway will be used for a given number of arrivals.
Give my regards to Noel!
The normal way in which the South runway is offered is that the Tower South controller(118.4) will try to forecast ahead when there will be light(ish) departures, he/she will then advise the APP people that the South is available for XXXX, the people in the centre will have a think about it, and then will revert back to the tower in agreement or otherwise. At some point during the latter part of this decision making proccess the offer will be made to the aircraft concerned. This will normally only happen approximately 8 to 10 minutes before touchdown. In addition, during periods of heavy arrival traffic, then the APP people can dictate to the tower that the South runway will be used for a given number of arrivals.
Give my regards to Noel!
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And for those who cannot remember more than 3 instructions..ever heard of writing down clearances on a piece of paper..it's not THAT hard..really...
...NATS current thinking is a maximum of 2 instructions that contain numbers.This is primarily to stop level busts.Also no instructions to be given with frequency changes...
Now I am standing by for some smart comment from Squawk 7700. He will STEAL someones "quote" off the internet and put it in his reply so he can look intelligent.
Don't worry, I won't waste any more smart comments on you, I'm afraid they are going over your head. Now leave and get back to your coloring book....
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7700,
I've been using the NATS system for about 2 years now,and it seems to work fine.I guess it's like every new initiative that appears,you think why,but you get used to it.We also have to speak as you would write,to stop the machine gun list of numbers that could get confused.We very seldom have say agains anymore.Listening carefully to all readbacks is another.
It's surprising how these little changes can reduce the chances of mistakes.But as I said would they be adopted in HK?Maybe I don't know.As most of my training had to be reversed,turned inside out/upside down when working in HK,I wouldn't be too hopeful.
I would have a bet that the inner holds at TD and Sokoe are very seldom used.If there are too many a/c why not put 2 or 3 in these holds.It would free up the R/T considerably instead of the South China Sea conga.I never saw these holds used once,but the conga line was there all the time.
Anyway back to the frost and snow.
I've been using the NATS system for about 2 years now,and it seems to work fine.I guess it's like every new initiative that appears,you think why,but you get used to it.We also have to speak as you would write,to stop the machine gun list of numbers that could get confused.We very seldom have say agains anymore.Listening carefully to all readbacks is another.
It's surprising how these little changes can reduce the chances of mistakes.But as I said would they be adopted in HK?Maybe I don't know.As most of my training had to be reversed,turned inside out/upside down when working in HK,I wouldn't be too hopeful.
I would have a bet that the inner holds at TD and Sokoe are very seldom used.If there are too many a/c why not put 2 or 3 in these holds.It would free up the R/T considerably instead of the South China Sea conga.I never saw these holds used once,but the conga line was there all the time.
Anyway back to the frost and snow.