AOA funding of UK retirement age appeal
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Cyril and co
I think the point of BPP is being missed!
It is not in place so that you get Capt's pay to do an Fo's job as one of the "oldies" pointed out (I know that that is happening but hopefully the union will sort that out - thanks KJP!).
Yes, BPP hopefully compensates you to a small degree when the company bypass you but it's main purpose is surely to "encourage" the company to play by the rules. We all know that the only thing that gets our companies attention is $$$.
I think the GC screwed up by taking CM's case on. I say that because where are we going to stop after this? Everybody with a pending courtcase could apply for funds. However, since they have taken the case on I feel it would be wrong to now withdraw support for it. We would be no better than KJP and his band of merry men.
What we need next is to agree on a set of rules so that this doesn't happen again.
W2
It is not in place so that you get Capt's pay to do an Fo's job as one of the "oldies" pointed out (I know that that is happening but hopefully the union will sort that out - thanks KJP!).
Yes, BPP hopefully compensates you to a small degree when the company bypass you but it's main purpose is surely to "encourage" the company to play by the rules. We all know that the only thing that gets our companies attention is $$$.
I think the GC screwed up by taking CM's case on. I say that because where are we going to stop after this? Everybody with a pending courtcase could apply for funds. However, since they have taken the case on I feel it would be wrong to now withdraw support for it. We would be no better than KJP and his band of merry men.
What we need next is to agree on a set of rules so that this doesn't happen again.
W2
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EGM
Thanks Cyril,
I've been on the fence up until now but you can thank yourself for my vote, for the motion, being emailed in now. You're posts are arrogant and one-eyed.
I've been on the fence up until now but you can thank yourself for my vote, for the motion, being emailed in now. You're posts are arrogant and one-eyed.
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You're posts are arrogant and one-eyed.
If trying to point out to the industrially naive bullies that alienating sections of your own membership using the pathetic war cry of democracy is arrogant and one eyed, then yes I am guilty. Is it one eyed to acknowledge RA65 is coming sooner or later, as unpleasant as it may be some for the short term it is going to happen one day.
Is it arrogant to point out to you that there are many more issues worth fighting for to protect your contract than the relatively measly dollars involved in the appeal. Is it one eyed to try and get it thru some of your heads that a unified union is the best way to solve the plethora of shortcoming in your contracts such as the "junior freighter" failed concept. Is it one eyed to point out to you that you are about to have no rostering practises for 2010.
Or are some of you blokes so dumb that you want to go to war over 35k GBP and risk splitting the union and giving the company everything it wants as easy as taking candy from a baby.
Last edited by CYRILJGROOVE; 7th Feb 2009 at 21:07.
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But Cyril...
"You may soon very well have a choice of a COS 08 style contract of no BPP until 65+ or continue on your current COS"
If Charlie's Appeal is successful the consequence for the UK base, at least, will be exactly that... COS08 (RA65-no BPP)
"Is it one eyed to acknowledge RA65 is coming sooner or later, as unpleasant as it may be some for the short term it is going to happen one day"
It's here already, and has been for a number of years; it's just that the more senior would prefer it on more lucrative terms. That said the terms seemed to "acceptable" enough; because "enough" are accepting it.
"protect your contract"
Charlie's Appeal is aimed at changing the contract; by not funding members are saying they don't want the Contract changed; they see themselves as the protectors.
"plethora of shortcoming in your contracts such as the "junior freighter" failed concept."
Not that this has anything to do with funding, but the Junior Fleet concept was part of an AOA negotiated deal... a phrase involving "horse" and "bolted" springs to mind. Equally, words such as renege and fickle and indecisive seem appropriate.
Cyril, Cronus may be onto something here. Are you sure your posts are really supporting the idea of funding?
If Charlie's Appeal is successful the consequence for the UK base, at least, will be exactly that... COS08 (RA65-no BPP)
"Is it one eyed to acknowledge RA65 is coming sooner or later, as unpleasant as it may be some for the short term it is going to happen one day"
It's here already, and has been for a number of years; it's just that the more senior would prefer it on more lucrative terms. That said the terms seemed to "acceptable" enough; because "enough" are accepting it.
"protect your contract"
Charlie's Appeal is aimed at changing the contract; by not funding members are saying they don't want the Contract changed; they see themselves as the protectors.
"plethora of shortcoming in your contracts such as the "junior freighter" failed concept."
Not that this has anything to do with funding, but the Junior Fleet concept was part of an AOA negotiated deal... a phrase involving "horse" and "bolted" springs to mind. Equally, words such as renege and fickle and indecisive seem appropriate.
Cyril, Cronus may be onto something here. Are you sure your posts are really supporting the idea of funding?
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I'll ask the question again: when and where was the statement made by the AOA that they would publish names of those in favour of the motion put forward. I can say catagorically that I have never heard of such.
The request for the vote is as per the AOA constitution, a copy of which you would have access to IF you are a member. Nothing untoward in it. Written notice required for tally of ballots and to guard against irregularities-again nothing untoward.
Axe handles - what? You may wish to review my posts on the topic.
You come across a bit emotional. Are you sure you are in the right profession?
The request for the vote is as per the AOA constitution, a copy of which you would have access to IF you are a member. Nothing untoward in it. Written notice required for tally of ballots and to guard against irregularities-again nothing untoward.
Axe handles - what? You may wish to review my posts on the topic.
You come across a bit emotional. Are you sure you are in the right profession?
Last edited by fire wall; 11th Feb 2009 at 09:37.
Deadduck,
You must have stopped your medication. I really haven't read such ranting and ravings since Arthur Scargill was on TV.
If you were a member you would know what rubbish you are spouting and Stu certainly doesn't agree with what you are saying.
Time for you to grow up I think.
You must have stopped your medication. I really haven't read such ranting and ravings since Arthur Scargill was on TV.
If you were a member you would know what rubbish you are spouting and Stu certainly doesn't agree with what you are saying.
Time for you to grow up I think.
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coal face
Jeez guys, stand back from the coal face and take a look at the pit itself will you. Contract or no, A scales and the old farts, issues of BPP et al, its all pretty nebulous. Every other segment of industry has recognised that the mandatory retirement(sic) limit is 65 for males, at least in Europe or most of it. With the social criterias attached to the increasing 'older' population and the traces we leave in life as we get older, sometimes as a marque of flying with an expat airline, debt profiles change,(higher risk of divorce, medical expenses, school fees, business comittments etc) and with that comes a necessary requirement to work into an age era consistent with the rest of society. The call is out for retirement in many other sectors to lift to 70 as a peg to age longevity. By bringing 65 into the overall picture benefits everyone in the longterm...as a sub 40yo, much can change in the years leading towards the 55 mark and it is then that this whole issue of sensible retirement, without discrimination, will then make sense. The cauldron of young turks should seek the wisdom of elders!!
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ouch!
The corruptive and stifling power of cynicism!....seems to be the way nowadays. Its no wonder we rarely get results. I guess that's why this thread has had the life its had!!
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Daisy et al are right, RA 55 is just a thing of the past.
I am not 40 yet either (and in the right hand seat), but with the financial turmoil we have seen the last year, it is quite obvious that whatever retirement planning you might have, it all could end up in smoke..
I am not 40 yet either (and in the right hand seat), but with the financial turmoil we have seen the last year, it is quite obvious that whatever retirement planning you might have, it all could end up in smoke..
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Talk About Miss The Point
Poor stillalbotross is so angry he just keeps missing the point. Firstly it was not a vote that was occuring it was a PETITION to the AOA to overturn a descision the GC had made on members behalf. There was no conspiracy to to make it harder to achieve, after all a petition is something you sign and put your name to to force a course of action that you believe in. Are you suggesting that the names should have been kept a secret from the membership. In actual fact if you think there is a conspiracy maybe the names should be released just incase the devious AOA is manipulating the results and lying about the numbers. Certainly if the petition did get up I would have expected to see the names to ensure tranparancy.
At the end of the day it is of no consequence as a resounding 93% of the membership did not support the petition and of those that did, it is probable that the 60 or so on the By Pass Pay Gravy Train supported the motion in order to keep getting paid for a job they do not perform. something that has a very short life span left if you read between the lines in the Crews News. Those noisy minority that started the petition have probably highlighted the BPP shortcomings of which many members were oblivious to 6 weeks ago and it will be those very members that have probably started the wheels in motion to "uncomplicate" our contracts.
And as for Liam he seems to support the notion that the older you get the less pay you should get, something that is at the core of the age discrimination legislation that protects against that exact concept.
Daisy, your post is on the money!
At the end of the day it is of no consequence as a resounding 93% of the membership did not support the petition and of those that did, it is probable that the 60 or so on the By Pass Pay Gravy Train supported the motion in order to keep getting paid for a job they do not perform. something that has a very short life span left if you read between the lines in the Crews News. Those noisy minority that started the petition have probably highlighted the BPP shortcomings of which many members were oblivious to 6 weeks ago and it will be those very members that have probably started the wheels in motion to "uncomplicate" our contracts.
And as for Liam he seems to support the notion that the older you get the less pay you should get, something that is at the core of the age discrimination legislation that protects against that exact concept.
Daisy, your post is on the money!
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Stillalbatross,
chill out dude. The reality is that Charlies appeal is a long shot and meanwhile the company is busily showing the old-timers the door. The only thing you should be annoyed about is that the AOA has decided to donate some of your dues to some lawyers already fat bank account. This wouldn't be the first and it won't be the last time they waste money so relax.
chill out dude. The reality is that Charlies appeal is a long shot and meanwhile the company is busily showing the old-timers the door. The only thing you should be annoyed about is that the AOA has decided to donate some of your dues to some lawyers already fat bank account. This wouldn't be the first and it won't be the last time they waste money so relax.
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Cyril
"And as for Liam he seems to support the notion that the older you get the less pay you should get, something that is at the core of the age discrimination legislation that protects against that exact concept."
Not sure how you figure that... we'll have to wait and see if a UK Court agrees with your view about the application of the Law. Whilst it will be interesting to see the Company's response if the Appeal is successful, it will be equally interesting to the response if the Appeal fails....
"93% of the membership did not support the petition"
I think 93% were apathetic..... you get the union you deserve...
Not sure how you figure that... we'll have to wait and see if a UK Court agrees with your view about the application of the Law. Whilst it will be interesting to see the Company's response if the Appeal is successful, it will be equally interesting to the response if the Appeal fails....
"93% of the membership did not support the petition"
I think 93% were apathetic..... you get the union you deserve...