Hong Kong Airlines B737-800 tries to take off from Taxiway in HKG
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I have followed the posts in the ‘demise of hka’ thread... and also here... and quite obviously something needs to be done in HKA. Whether it will or not remains to be seen... but the potential consequences of nothing drastically improving are frightful... not just for the company, but the flying public.
I have read many calls of racism and the like... and IMHO this isn’t the primary concern... though a concern it is. There are so many posts that refer to asian pilots as sub-standard and then the inevitable retorts by (i assume) asian pilots who claim racism and post ‘evidence’ of poor standards in aviation in the western world. Then you get so many posts following, that throw mud at each other about who’s more racist and so on and so forth. This i think is diluting the issue.
I believe (IMHO) that surely racism and racist attitudes do exist as quite clearly posts from both sides indicate... and the current HKA flight ops management have indeed suggested such an attitude... but there is far more to it.
One can be quick to criticise poor standards of Indonesian and Singaporean pilots in HKA... and in each example i think it’s quite justified (eg: taking off in typhoons and attempted take off on taxiways)... but i have personally seen similarly poor standards in ‘western’ pilots (granted, only two). At the risk of being boo’d of my soap box, i suggest, that there are poor pilots all around the world... and also pilots of high standards around the world (including Indonesia). Sadly, some governing authorities are rife with corruption and have such poor regulatory standards that many unsuitable pilots may get through the system (or remain in the system) more so than with other governing authorities. Consequently, the perception is not very favourable of the majority of pilots from a given region, which may or may not bee justified (opinions will vary). This phenomenon is not just limited to certain asian countries, but include some non-asian countries (eg: certain African countries). Socio-economic, cultural reasons and even other factors seemingly removed from the aviation industry itself, may have a lot to do with it.
I’m sure many who have flown with the three mainland captains (who’ve been with the company since CR days) wouldn’t mark them as sub-standard. They may not necessarily be ‘aces of the base’, but are undoubtedly highly competent and capable pilots of the kind of standard that is needed in HKA... and nice guys to boot.
So... when certain posts take on a racially related flavour... the ensuing responses aren’t surprising. I will say, that some retaliatory posts from ‘asian’ posters in the ‘demise of...’ thread, to my mind seem rather inflammatory and are divergent of the points raised... and only invoke similar responses from ‘non-asian’ posters... and the cycle continues... and the main issues are diluted.
These Singaporeans in management at HKA are quite simply tossers who have no idea what they are doing... have no experience in running an airline... have an arrogant attitude towards everyone but themselves and those who suck up to them... and are quite simply so full of themselves that they probably actually believe in the bullsh!t they are spouting.
However, rather than being a function of their racial and cultural background, it may simply be that they are of a weak mind, lacking in maturity, intelligence and experience as managers.
They may not see themselves as ‘racist’... and may have a strong belief in their master plan for HKA... but their track-record so far is ridddled with incompetence, deceit and cover-ups. Perhaps they don’t see the error of their ways... or the consequences... which may be readily apparent to any sensibly-minded and mature observer (regardless of racial or cultural background).
There so many examples of these Singaporean managers having a weak understanding, poor airmanship, sub-standard flying skills, weak CRM skills... and a blatant disregard (“intentional non-compliance”) for the current SOP’s.... such as being ridiculously high on app to HKG and ignoring f/o’s suggestions (loss of face??).. and eventually having over 2000fpm below 1000’ (unstable)... not going around... and catching GS at 700’; descending in VS 1000fpm with speed brake out and thrust up 60-70%... and rebuffing f/o’s suggestion to the contrary; 2.1g landings (Dick 1); 2.3g landings (Dick 2)... and subsequent cover-ups; not to forget being more concerned about 'impressing' the cabin crew... and so on.
Those in the company who have flown with these guys surely have seen similar examples. Perhaps regurgitating specific incidents is unnecessary here as i’m sure many are aware that they are not the experienced airline captains (nor expert managers) they claim to be.
The bottom line is... these w*nkers need to be kicked out. They will not do the company, aviation industry, pilots, other employees or the public any good. Even if their intentions were good (surely many will doubt this – but i’m trying to be fair-minded)... their record so far has shown a high degree of incompetence and outright deception. There is only so far this can go without disastrous consequences.
As for our Indonesian brethren, perhaps we should not suggest they’re all sub-standard. What HKA needs is to actually have some standards... and a thorough selection and vetting process. Let’s target the real criminals here. The captain who was involved in the recent incident may well be of poor standard and undeserving of a position here (he had ppreviously demonstrated a very poor standard as a captain during his training with the company and had trouble getting checked to line... which was conveniently 'dealt with')... but having heard first hand of several scary stories of the HKA’s current recruiting practices, there is real cause for concern.
Eg: a certain management ‘recruiter’ and self proclaimed expert, deliberately changed the assessment scores of a poor candidate AFTER the non-management co-assessor scored him below standard... experienced, typed, ‘jet’ captains performing so poorly that instructors are ‘reluctant’ to pass them on the sim course...etc...etc...
Interestingly, the ‘fourteeners’ who were let go all have jobs in airlines with comparably much higher demonstrated standards and proven history than HKA. Why did HKA let them go just because they were lacking ‘jet time’? Sure, many may cite ‘racism’ as a reason... and perhaps they are correct... or perhaps the Singaporean management didn’t believe they were being racist and in their (little) minds they felt this was a valid move... or perhaps a bit of both? (the hiring of two Asians with no jet time after the 14 probably didn’t help their cause... and is a reasonable decider in our conclusion of racism.)
Even ‘if’ lack of jet time was the sole reason.... this only highlights their narrow-minded and weak attitude in managerial matters of this nature. All those guys (and gals) had plenty of real experience in demanding flying jobs and had a proven history of high performance and standards (both previously and also with HKA)... and were snapped up by far more established and successful airlines. If they were good enough for CX, KA and others... funny they weren’t ‘good enough’ for HKA. I’ve heard second-hand, several comments by the management that the days of CX and KA are over... do they really believe that HKA will dominate these two giants in the region? Surely even they aren’t so stupid. If CX and KA were to fall over... HKA would have been buried long before.... and their daily operating practices would be a primary contributor (covering up heavy landings and hard QAR warnings, pressuring captains to take off in a typhoon, frowning on captains for NOT taking off in a typhoon...etc..).
It’s laughable that they’re reportedly preparing for long-haul A330 operations when they can’t manage a diminishing fleet of B738s... and are losing money at a tremendous rate.
Another thing that concerns me is hearing that these Singaporean managers do not put their name against anything that can come back and bite them. (Perhaps they DO realise the dubiousness of their actions.) I don’ know how true this is, but if so, it is the people in lower management positions, who aren’t in this clique of ‘super-hero’ pilots, that will get roasted... rightly or wrongly... but not entirely fairly.
I’m all for the success of HKA... but with these guys at the helm... i can almost hear the band playing while the Titanic (i know, i know... an ambitious analogy) sinks.
What’s to be done??
I have read many calls of racism and the like... and IMHO this isn’t the primary concern... though a concern it is. There are so many posts that refer to asian pilots as sub-standard and then the inevitable retorts by (i assume) asian pilots who claim racism and post ‘evidence’ of poor standards in aviation in the western world. Then you get so many posts following, that throw mud at each other about who’s more racist and so on and so forth. This i think is diluting the issue.
I believe (IMHO) that surely racism and racist attitudes do exist as quite clearly posts from both sides indicate... and the current HKA flight ops management have indeed suggested such an attitude... but there is far more to it.
One can be quick to criticise poor standards of Indonesian and Singaporean pilots in HKA... and in each example i think it’s quite justified (eg: taking off in typhoons and attempted take off on taxiways)... but i have personally seen similarly poor standards in ‘western’ pilots (granted, only two). At the risk of being boo’d of my soap box, i suggest, that there are poor pilots all around the world... and also pilots of high standards around the world (including Indonesia). Sadly, some governing authorities are rife with corruption and have such poor regulatory standards that many unsuitable pilots may get through the system (or remain in the system) more so than with other governing authorities. Consequently, the perception is not very favourable of the majority of pilots from a given region, which may or may not bee justified (opinions will vary). This phenomenon is not just limited to certain asian countries, but include some non-asian countries (eg: certain African countries). Socio-economic, cultural reasons and even other factors seemingly removed from the aviation industry itself, may have a lot to do with it.
I’m sure many who have flown with the three mainland captains (who’ve been with the company since CR days) wouldn’t mark them as sub-standard. They may not necessarily be ‘aces of the base’, but are undoubtedly highly competent and capable pilots of the kind of standard that is needed in HKA... and nice guys to boot.
So... when certain posts take on a racially related flavour... the ensuing responses aren’t surprising. I will say, that some retaliatory posts from ‘asian’ posters in the ‘demise of...’ thread, to my mind seem rather inflammatory and are divergent of the points raised... and only invoke similar responses from ‘non-asian’ posters... and the cycle continues... and the main issues are diluted.
These Singaporeans in management at HKA are quite simply tossers who have no idea what they are doing... have no experience in running an airline... have an arrogant attitude towards everyone but themselves and those who suck up to them... and are quite simply so full of themselves that they probably actually believe in the bullsh!t they are spouting.
However, rather than being a function of their racial and cultural background, it may simply be that they are of a weak mind, lacking in maturity, intelligence and experience as managers.
They may not see themselves as ‘racist’... and may have a strong belief in their master plan for HKA... but their track-record so far is ridddled with incompetence, deceit and cover-ups. Perhaps they don’t see the error of their ways... or the consequences... which may be readily apparent to any sensibly-minded and mature observer (regardless of racial or cultural background).
There so many examples of these Singaporean managers having a weak understanding, poor airmanship, sub-standard flying skills, weak CRM skills... and a blatant disregard (“intentional non-compliance”) for the current SOP’s.... such as being ridiculously high on app to HKG and ignoring f/o’s suggestions (loss of face??).. and eventually having over 2000fpm below 1000’ (unstable)... not going around... and catching GS at 700’; descending in VS 1000fpm with speed brake out and thrust up 60-70%... and rebuffing f/o’s suggestion to the contrary; 2.1g landings (Dick 1); 2.3g landings (Dick 2)... and subsequent cover-ups; not to forget being more concerned about 'impressing' the cabin crew... and so on.
Those in the company who have flown with these guys surely have seen similar examples. Perhaps regurgitating specific incidents is unnecessary here as i’m sure many are aware that they are not the experienced airline captains (nor expert managers) they claim to be.
The bottom line is... these w*nkers need to be kicked out. They will not do the company, aviation industry, pilots, other employees or the public any good. Even if their intentions were good (surely many will doubt this – but i’m trying to be fair-minded)... their record so far has shown a high degree of incompetence and outright deception. There is only so far this can go without disastrous consequences.
As for our Indonesian brethren, perhaps we should not suggest they’re all sub-standard. What HKA needs is to actually have some standards... and a thorough selection and vetting process. Let’s target the real criminals here. The captain who was involved in the recent incident may well be of poor standard and undeserving of a position here (he had ppreviously demonstrated a very poor standard as a captain during his training with the company and had trouble getting checked to line... which was conveniently 'dealt with')... but having heard first hand of several scary stories of the HKA’s current recruiting practices, there is real cause for concern.
Eg: a certain management ‘recruiter’ and self proclaimed expert, deliberately changed the assessment scores of a poor candidate AFTER the non-management co-assessor scored him below standard... experienced, typed, ‘jet’ captains performing so poorly that instructors are ‘reluctant’ to pass them on the sim course...etc...etc...
Interestingly, the ‘fourteeners’ who were let go all have jobs in airlines with comparably much higher demonstrated standards and proven history than HKA. Why did HKA let them go just because they were lacking ‘jet time’? Sure, many may cite ‘racism’ as a reason... and perhaps they are correct... or perhaps the Singaporean management didn’t believe they were being racist and in their (little) minds they felt this was a valid move... or perhaps a bit of both? (the hiring of two Asians with no jet time after the 14 probably didn’t help their cause... and is a reasonable decider in our conclusion of racism.)
Even ‘if’ lack of jet time was the sole reason.... this only highlights their narrow-minded and weak attitude in managerial matters of this nature. All those guys (and gals) had plenty of real experience in demanding flying jobs and had a proven history of high performance and standards (both previously and also with HKA)... and were snapped up by far more established and successful airlines. If they were good enough for CX, KA and others... funny they weren’t ‘good enough’ for HKA. I’ve heard second-hand, several comments by the management that the days of CX and KA are over... do they really believe that HKA will dominate these two giants in the region? Surely even they aren’t so stupid. If CX and KA were to fall over... HKA would have been buried long before.... and their daily operating practices would be a primary contributor (covering up heavy landings and hard QAR warnings, pressuring captains to take off in a typhoon, frowning on captains for NOT taking off in a typhoon...etc..).
It’s laughable that they’re reportedly preparing for long-haul A330 operations when they can’t manage a diminishing fleet of B738s... and are losing money at a tremendous rate.
Another thing that concerns me is hearing that these Singaporean managers do not put their name against anything that can come back and bite them. (Perhaps they DO realise the dubiousness of their actions.) I don’ know how true this is, but if so, it is the people in lower management positions, who aren’t in this clique of ‘super-hero’ pilots, that will get roasted... rightly or wrongly... but not entirely fairly.
I’m all for the success of HKA... but with these guys at the helm... i can almost hear the band playing while the Titanic (i know, i know... an ambitious analogy) sinks.
What’s to be done??
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Well said.
I have flown with all three Captains from China and had the pleasure of being on course with one. They are , to a man, sound individuals with experience and crm.
Singaswine must simply go away.
I have flown with all three Captains from China and had the pleasure of being on course with one. They are , to a man, sound individuals with experience and crm.
Singaswine must simply go away.
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I presume by "these people" you're referring to the current management and any sub-standard pilots they've hired.
... or do you mean the whole pilot body at HKA?
If the former, i wholeheartedly agree.
... or do you mean the whole pilot body at HKA?
If the former, i wholeheartedly agree.
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Comes a time
Comes a time Ladies and Gentleman when talk is not enough. While I appreciate that it is very easy for me to say, someone from HKA will have to "bite the bullet" and make a formal complaint to the C.A.D (and there are other avenues apart from the "friendly" office).
Until such a complaint is made NOTHING WILL CHANGE. You might fear for your job, but your family may well be fearing for your life and for how they will survive without you.
Until such a complaint is made NOTHING WILL CHANGE. You might fear for your job, but your family may well be fearing for your life and for how they will survive without you.
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UK now has painted on the concrete ahead of any runway stopbars,a huge warning on the taxiway.It's red with white lettering RUNWAY AHEAD.It's mainly to stop runway incursions,but it does mark out the runway,in bad conditions.
Has HK got this yet.If not it might have helped stoped this incident as well.
Has HK got this yet.If not it might have helped stoped this incident as well.
Painting "runway ahead" on the taxyway just before the holding point??
You might as well add "dick head" as well.
If you get that close to a lit runway holding point and still need a sign telling you the runway is ahead then you should not be flying jets.
The lit up ICAO sign boards, red stop bars, and yellow flashing lights should be more than enough for an experienced crew to recognise. Even if the tower have turned off the red stop bars the others are still on.
In a modern airport, with good weather, experienced crews should never be able to make such a basic mistake.
In bad weather they should be tripple careful and use all external and instrument cues to check runway alignment.
Besides, the 737 sits so low you'd have to be on top of the "runway ahead" sign to see it anyway..............Only a 747 would be high enough. And how do you see it if the surface is wet at night?
You might as well add "dick head" as well.
If you get that close to a lit runway holding point and still need a sign telling you the runway is ahead then you should not be flying jets.
The lit up ICAO sign boards, red stop bars, and yellow flashing lights should be more than enough for an experienced crew to recognise. Even if the tower have turned off the red stop bars the others are still on.
In a modern airport, with good weather, experienced crews should never be able to make such a basic mistake.
In bad weather they should be tripple careful and use all external and instrument cues to check runway alignment.
Besides, the 737 sits so low you'd have to be on top of the "runway ahead" sign to see it anyway..............Only a 747 would be high enough. And how do you see it if the surface is wet at night?
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As for being suspended it appears as though (from the roster revision issued last night) that the FO is on a large block of days off yet the Captain concerned is still on line.
Why I am I not surprised.
Why I am I not surprised.
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Hong Kong - A pilot and his co-pilot have been suspended after they tried to take off from a taxiway rather than a runway at Hong Kong International Airport, investigators said Saturday. An air traffic controller raised the alarm when he saw a South Korea-bound Hong Kong Airlines Boeing 737 carrying 122 passengers hurtling down a taxiway running parallel to the airport's north runway.
The controller radioed the pilot and alerted him in time for him to abort the takeoff after around 500 metres and take off from the runway instead, Hong Kong's Civil Aviation Department said.
The incident took place September 13 on a charter flight bound for Cheong Ju and operated by 7-year-old Hong Kong Airlines, which with sister airline Hong Kong Express flies to 30 cities in Asia.
Indonesian captain Indra Santrianto and his first officer Diego Martin Chiadria, an Argentinian, have been suspended from duty while the airline and Civil Aviation Department investigate the incident.
Santrianto was summoned to explain himself last weekend and insisted in an interview and a written report that he did not try to take off from the taxiway, an airline management source said.
Instead, he claimed he was travelling so rapidly down the taxiway for the early morning flight that air traffic controllers might have mistaken his approach for an attempted takeoff.
Flight data examined by investigators showed the plane was travelling at a higher speed than would be expected for an aircraft taxiing toward a takeoff position, the source said.
Since the incident, a memo has been sent out by management to all Hong Kong Airlines pilots saying, "Ensure you are on a runway before taking off."
Taxiways at Hong Kong International Airport run the entire length of the runways but are narrower, have different coloured lighting and unlike runways do not have lights up the centre.
One senior Hong Kong-based pilot told Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa, "It is very difficult to mistake a taxiway for a runway, especially at an airport as modern as Chek Lap Kok, but it does sometimes happen.
"There is nothing on board a plane to warn you if you take off from a taxiway or if you stray onto an active runway, and this is a problem that needs addressing."
A spokeswoman for Hong Kong Airlines said the incident was under investigation by the company's management and she could make no further comment on it.
The Civil Aviation Department said in a statement that despite the pilot's claims, it believed he tried to take off from the taxiway instead of the runway.
"The air traffic controller stopped the aircraft as soon as the aircraft began to move," the statement said. "There was no danger to the aircraft or the passengers at any point."
It said it was also investigating the incident.
The controller radioed the pilot and alerted him in time for him to abort the takeoff after around 500 metres and take off from the runway instead, Hong Kong's Civil Aviation Department said.
The incident took place September 13 on a charter flight bound for Cheong Ju and operated by 7-year-old Hong Kong Airlines, which with sister airline Hong Kong Express flies to 30 cities in Asia.
Indonesian captain Indra Santrianto and his first officer Diego Martin Chiadria, an Argentinian, have been suspended from duty while the airline and Civil Aviation Department investigate the incident.
Santrianto was summoned to explain himself last weekend and insisted in an interview and a written report that he did not try to take off from the taxiway, an airline management source said.
Instead, he claimed he was travelling so rapidly down the taxiway for the early morning flight that air traffic controllers might have mistaken his approach for an attempted takeoff.
Flight data examined by investigators showed the plane was travelling at a higher speed than would be expected for an aircraft taxiing toward a takeoff position, the source said.
Since the incident, a memo has been sent out by management to all Hong Kong Airlines pilots saying, "Ensure you are on a runway before taking off."
Taxiways at Hong Kong International Airport run the entire length of the runways but are narrower, have different coloured lighting and unlike runways do not have lights up the centre.
One senior Hong Kong-based pilot told Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa, "It is very difficult to mistake a taxiway for a runway, especially at an airport as modern as Chek Lap Kok, but it does sometimes happen.
"There is nothing on board a plane to warn you if you take off from a taxiway or if you stray onto an active runway, and this is a problem that needs addressing."
A spokeswoman for Hong Kong Airlines said the incident was under investigation by the company's management and she could make no further comment on it.
The Civil Aviation Department said in a statement that despite the pilot's claims, it believed he tried to take off from the taxiway instead of the runway.
"The air traffic controller stopped the aircraft as soon as the aircraft began to move," the statement said. "There was no danger to the aircraft or the passengers at any point."
It said it was also investigating the incident.
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The SCMP Article
Recently read the news article in the SCMP.
The article states …………. he (the captain) is understood to have argued that he was travelling so rapidly down the taxiway for the early morning flight that air traffic controllers may have mistaken this for an attempted takeoff
Captain Indra, did Mr Wu suggest that this be your argument. Why would you want to taxi east on taxiway A when the departure runway is 07L. As we all know, to get to the hold point for 07L you need to taxi west ?? Seems the lies continue. You are not credible, along with the managers that are obviously trying to protect you and themselves.
Trying to lie your way out of this one is not going to work for you, nor HKA management. Have you forgotten that there are Tower logs and recordings, and your aircraft does have a CVR and FDR, and then of course there are the QARs. But then we all know that QARs get squashed, deleted, or just swept under the carpet at HKA.
There is a suggestion Mr Indra that you like to taxi fast; do you always push TOGA at the start of taxiing ??
Andy Milman ……… well said
. You are right on the money with regards to the w*nk*rs running HKA, and they have to go, for the sake of all within Hong Kong, and not just HKA.
More to follow no doubt.
The article states …………. he (the captain) is understood to have argued that he was travelling so rapidly down the taxiway for the early morning flight that air traffic controllers may have mistaken this for an attempted takeoff
Captain Indra, did Mr Wu suggest that this be your argument. Why would you want to taxi east on taxiway A when the departure runway is 07L. As we all know, to get to the hold point for 07L you need to taxi west ?? Seems the lies continue. You are not credible, along with the managers that are obviously trying to protect you and themselves.
Trying to lie your way out of this one is not going to work for you, nor HKA management. Have you forgotten that there are Tower logs and recordings, and your aircraft does have a CVR and FDR, and then of course there are the QARs. But then we all know that QARs get squashed, deleted, or just swept under the carpet at HKA.
There is a suggestion Mr Indra that you like to taxi fast; do you always push TOGA at the start of taxiing ??
Andy Milman ……… well said
. You are right on the money with regards to the w*nk*rs running HKA, and they have to go, for the sake of all within Hong Kong, and not just HKA.More to follow no doubt.
Since the incident, a memo has been sent out by management to all Hong Kong Airlines pilots saying, "Ensure you are on a runway before taking off."
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What is it with these sandpit idiots ?? 
off back to the ME forum would ya .
( BTW, not even close )
New memo coming soon:
" please ensure you are on bay before shutting down engines and opening doors"
and
" please ensure you are above VR before trying to lift off "
and
" please don't drag your knuckles on the ground when walking thruogh the terminal "
off back to the ME forum would ya .( BTW, not even close )
New memo coming soon:
" please ensure you are on bay before shutting down engines and opening doors"
and
" please ensure you are above VR before trying to lift off "
and
" please don't drag your knuckles on the ground when walking thruogh the terminal "
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This ones for JERKOHf...
maybe you should stop evaluatnig pilots in the gecat/oxford sim and get some practice in yourself. You need all the help you can get. Oh by the way...maybe the calibre of guys you hire might do better with a support pilot who actually has some jet time!!! Will your bum boys in your office be trained by you...if so they will continue to make headlines in the papers.
Before i pen-off...the media is in a frenzy and you and your boyfriends in the office will be named! There is a thorough back ground check being done on you guys as I type this!
maybe you should stop evaluatnig pilots in the gecat/oxford sim and get some practice in yourself. You need all the help you can get. Oh by the way...maybe the calibre of guys you hire might do better with a support pilot who actually has some jet time!!! Will your bum boys in your office be trained by you...if so they will continue to make headlines in the papers.
Before i pen-off...the media is in a frenzy and you and your boyfriends in the office will be named! There is a thorough back ground check being done on you guys as I type this!
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Let me bring to the forefront of your minds, 'THAT' email circulated back in May.....
This is the same Skipper who on his CTL told the checkie it was ok to backtrack the runway at 60kts (so probably quite plausible he hit TOGA to get a bit of speed up on Taxiway A!).
On that same flight, no attempt was made to re-intercept the outbound VOR radial at NNG-I guess that extends to inability to track a runway centerline.
There WILL be an accident in this airline SOON.... it is no exaggeration to say that EVERY new pilot hired is sub-standard; pilots from indonesia where the aviation industry has been suspended, and guys and gals who were not upgradeable in SIA or CX.
Like the Tower's "Reject reject", the best advice I can give you all is "Eject eject".
This is the same Skipper who on his CTL told the checkie it was ok to backtrack the runway at 60kts (so probably quite plausible he hit TOGA to get a bit of speed up on Taxiway A!).
On that same flight, no attempt was made to re-intercept the outbound VOR radial at NNG-I guess that extends to inability to track a runway centerline.
There WILL be an accident in this airline SOON.... it is no exaggeration to say that EVERY new pilot hired is sub-standard; pilots from indonesia where the aviation industry has been suspended, and guys and gals who were not upgradeable in SIA or CX.
Like the Tower's "Reject reject", the best advice I can give you all is "Eject eject".