Nominations
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flyingkiwi....I believe it's also YOUR contract that has YOU retiring at 55. Of course, as soon as you make Captain, you will suddenly see the light...
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"The Management" and the real management must really love reading this thread it fits their argument very well as to why they do not need to give us a pay rise. There are a few mental pygmies around.
We have the "new" dreamers who think they are going to change the world - nobody has tried it before and we are going to have a really strong union because of the new GC they wish elected. The sad people who just continually blame the "A" scalers - and before anyone asks I am B scale - and obviously spout off without getting their facts correct. Just the sort of new commander we want - goes off at a tangent with blinkered ideas and views.
The pilots that think they are the only ones that have been disadvantaged and that anyone that does not have his retirement sorted by the time they are 40 is a looser. There are a lot of Captains and Senior First Officers who have already had their careers disadvantaged and would like the chance to recover some of their losses. So for those that might have their career slightly disadvantaged - but will have the extra years available to them to recover - stop whining - get over it - it is called LIFE!!
We have the "new" dreamers who think they are going to change the world - nobody has tried it before and we are going to have a really strong union because of the new GC they wish elected. The sad people who just continually blame the "A" scalers - and before anyone asks I am B scale - and obviously spout off without getting their facts correct. Just the sort of new commander we want - goes off at a tangent with blinkered ideas and views.
The pilots that think they are the only ones that have been disadvantaged and that anyone that does not have his retirement sorted by the time they are 40 is a looser. There are a lot of Captains and Senior First Officers who have already had their careers disadvantaged and would like the chance to recover some of their losses. So for those that might have their career slightly disadvantaged - but will have the extra years available to them to recover - stop whining - get over it - it is called LIFE!!
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How many A scalers?
How many 'A scalers' are are left?
Surely they must be the minority by now?
Surely they must be the minority by now?
I haven't broken down the numbers for each rank, but maybe someone can..
Given the overall small numbers of pilots putting their hands up for this, should we perhaps consider increasing the size of the GC? I mean, it seems crazy to vote two guys out when in reality we should be thankful that people are even interested..
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my point is that A scale argue that we accepted the B scale package when we joined.. well thats fair enough but they are the ones complaining about retiring at 55 when that is the package that they accepted when they joined. You cant ague both points, either stop telling us B scalers that we are wrong to want the same deal as you or stop complaining about having to retire at 55. Going to 65 affects our command timing and if someone joined last year the effect would mean they would have to work to 65 only to earn the same as if they reitred at 55 with the current command time.
Hey Dragon69,
Perhaps you could enlighten us...
Why is ATY a 'Moron' just because he has a different point of view to you?
Perhaps you need to get your head out of your a$$ and realize that there are people out here who are just as entitled as any other to a point of view.
I sincerely hope you are in a position to retire at 55. That said, I'm sure that once you have your command your stance will move a little to the right.
Perhaps you could enlighten us...
Why is ATY a 'Moron' just because he has a different point of view to you?
Perhaps you need to get your head out of your a$$ and realize that there are people out here who are just as entitled as any other to a point of view.
I sincerely hope you are in a position to retire at 55. That said, I'm sure that once you have your command your stance will move a little to the right.
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We cant afford to alienate any of the pilot fractions. Whether A/B/C scales, local pilots and freighter pilots, we must all pull together or else we will never have a hope of taking on this company. If we dont band together PPRUNE will continue as our whinging forum forever!!!
There definitely seems to be a change in the air with the new President and most of the GC, we have to give them all a chance and get behind them.
There definitely seems to be a change in the air with the new President and most of the GC, we have to give them all a chance and get behind them.
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A scale has had three paycuts up to 28% since 1999. No payrise since 1994.
Yes and you are still 20-30 % more than B scales. And now you want A scales to 65.
Quick question here: When ASL was introduced were you pissed off with them because your command got delayed?
Did you not see ASL as a Direct entry Captain deal?
Did you miss out on bases because they were going to Freighted pilots instead of Passenger crews?
If you have answered yes to any of these, do not expect the a B scale pilot to buy you a beer when you extend to 65.
Yes and you are still 20-30 % more than B scales. And now you want A scales to 65.
Quick question here: When ASL was introduced were you pissed off with them because your command got delayed?
Did you not see ASL as a Direct entry Captain deal?
Did you miss out on bases because they were going to Freighted pilots instead of Passenger crews?
If you have answered yes to any of these, do not expect the a B scale pilot to buy you a beer when you extend to 65.
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Max Reheat,
How many that want to extend to 65 are actually doing it because they do not have enough to retire on. I guarantee you the majority that want to extend have more than I will ever hope to have when I turn 55. It has nothing to do about not having enough money, and all about being Capt. Smith as opposed to Mr. Smith.
That's all relative isn't? If you are trying to equal Mr. Gates well you're never going to have enough are you?
And what makes you think I don't have my command???
How many that want to extend to 65 are actually doing it because they do not have enough to retire on. I guarantee you the majority that want to extend have more than I will ever hope to have when I turn 55. It has nothing to do about not having enough money, and all about being Capt. Smith as opposed to Mr. Smith.
I sincerely hope you are in a position to retire at 55
I'm sure that once you have your command your stance will move a little to the right
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You don't write like a Captain, that's all.....!
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Keep A scales
I am not an A scale pilot, however I am very happy to have them around so that they are a much juicier target for Management when the next round of pay cuts eventually comes along!
When the A scale guys have gone, us B scale pilots will be perceived in the same way as the A scalers are now, by both Management and junior pilots.
The real issue is that CX have got us all working harder and for less than ever before. We don't need a bigger slice of the cake, we need a much bigger cake to go around.
BTW.
Cumguzzler, didn't you used to be Cumgargler? If so why the change?
When the A scale guys have gone, us B scale pilots will be perceived in the same way as the A scalers are now, by both Management and junior pilots.
The real issue is that CX have got us all working harder and for less than ever before. We don't need a bigger slice of the cake, we need a much bigger cake to go around.
BTW.
Cumguzzler, didn't you used to be Cumgargler? If so why the change?
Last edited by jonathon68; 2nd Jun 2008 at 15:05. Reason: Speeling
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The real issue is that CX have got us all working harder and for less than ever before. We don't need a bigger slice of the cake, we need a much bigger cake to go around.
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How depressing when a thread on Nominations go this way and has less responses than that of a thread called Cathay Girls. Just proves to the rest of the world how stupid pilots can really be. I guess no one wants a union instead just keep slagging it off along with anyone and everything else. Soo much for a constructive thread.....
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So for those that might have their career slightly disadvantaged - but will have the extra years available to them to recover - stop whining - get over it - it is called LIFE
Even with a 28% pay cut an A scaler going to 65 retires with over 4 times what a B scaler retires on. As always I'm happy to look at any spreadsheets that show it really ain't that bad.
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stillalbatross. that's right...keep flogging the A-scale horse. Any other airline you care to mention has a 65 retirement age. No matter where you go, that will be the reality. Why don't you grow up a bit and realise that your only hope of a 'proper' career depends on you convincing/coercing the company to provide you with proper pay, benefits and working conditions. Trying to prevent your fellow colleagues from working to a sensible age is not going to achieve any of those things. The 65 debate is over....65 has won throughout the industry...won't be any different at CX.
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your only hope of a 'proper' career depends on you convincing/coercing the company to provide you with proper pay, benefits and working conditions
Ahh, because the AOA isn't my union, it's yours.
Maybe the company could offer the local package DEC RA65 to anyone with a rating and experience so they wouldn't need to pay A scale above 55 and throw in Command basing slots too for the same package. Then you'd be on the receiving end just like us............
Last edited by stillalbatross; 3rd Jun 2008 at 05:43.
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I guess B scalers will keep flogging the 'A scale horse' whilst A scalers tell them "tough, thats life" or, "it's industry standard" or "you can work to 65 like us to make up the shortfall".
The vast majority of us joined on a contract that had the terms clearly explained. We knew what we would earn in each rank but we had no promises of when we would upgrade. There was never any doubt that retirement age was 55 - the legal age for flying was higher than that in many of our recruitment markets for quite a while. In spite of the difference in the CX RA and our national RA we joined anyway! We joined as the lower RA would lead to a faster upgrade time!
So where is a B scaler vs A scaler today? Well if a B scaler joined the same day as me and was on the same career path (with the exception of remaining HKG based throughout) he would be about $5.9million worse off (after 15 years). If I was still in the old PF (CPALRS) he would be $11.2million worse off. As we move forward from this date he still needs over a 20-25% increase in salary and PF to keep the gap from increasing. I have ignored investment return on the excess - it is purely the cumulative nominal difference.
So unlike some PPRUNE posters I am finding it a little hard to justify RA65 as just 'tough luck' and 'industry standard'. CX has wanted RA60 since at least 2000. That was long before any supposed legal pressure at outports. They didn't introduce in 2000/01 as the then AOA President pointed out that they would have to compensate everyone affected and basically everyone is affected - we are all affected in terms of delayed seniority in staff travel, basing availability, roster bidding etc.
RA65 will be the norm in CX one day. Whether it is now or when the first CoS08 comes up for command is up to us to determine as the contract cannot be varied without our agreement. Last summer CX wanted to blackmail FOs into signing onto new 'based contracts' that would have included RA65 and waived their right to bypass pay. That was probably the main reason the GC voted against presenting the deal to the membership.
The way forward - we have about 1400+ pilots who joined prior to CoS08 who are FO/SOs - they should receive compensatory bypass pay above what is required of CX now. Those payments need to be far more transparent and rigorously enforced unlike the arbitrary distribution that occurs under 'Company Policy' - its in the contract, it should be paid accordingly.
Any work beyond 55 should be on the same T + C's as existed prior to RA55.
Until we get a fair and equitable solution CX can continue to extend on whatever terms people are happy to work for and CX will occasionally incur bypass pay commitments for those it can't 'back door' through a myriad of basings options - I didn't even know HKG was a base until recently!
The vast majority of us joined on a contract that had the terms clearly explained. We knew what we would earn in each rank but we had no promises of when we would upgrade. There was never any doubt that retirement age was 55 - the legal age for flying was higher than that in many of our recruitment markets for quite a while. In spite of the difference in the CX RA and our national RA we joined anyway! We joined as the lower RA would lead to a faster upgrade time!
So where is a B scaler vs A scaler today? Well if a B scaler joined the same day as me and was on the same career path (with the exception of remaining HKG based throughout) he would be about $5.9million worse off (after 15 years). If I was still in the old PF (CPALRS) he would be $11.2million worse off. As we move forward from this date he still needs over a 20-25% increase in salary and PF to keep the gap from increasing. I have ignored investment return on the excess - it is purely the cumulative nominal difference.
So unlike some PPRUNE posters I am finding it a little hard to justify RA65 as just 'tough luck' and 'industry standard'. CX has wanted RA60 since at least 2000. That was long before any supposed legal pressure at outports. They didn't introduce in 2000/01 as the then AOA President pointed out that they would have to compensate everyone affected and basically everyone is affected - we are all affected in terms of delayed seniority in staff travel, basing availability, roster bidding etc.
RA65 will be the norm in CX one day. Whether it is now or when the first CoS08 comes up for command is up to us to determine as the contract cannot be varied without our agreement. Last summer CX wanted to blackmail FOs into signing onto new 'based contracts' that would have included RA65 and waived their right to bypass pay. That was probably the main reason the GC voted against presenting the deal to the membership.
The way forward - we have about 1400+ pilots who joined prior to CoS08 who are FO/SOs - they should receive compensatory bypass pay above what is required of CX now. Those payments need to be far more transparent and rigorously enforced unlike the arbitrary distribution that occurs under 'Company Policy' - its in the contract, it should be paid accordingly.
Any work beyond 55 should be on the same T + C's as existed prior to RA55.
Until we get a fair and equitable solution CX can continue to extend on whatever terms people are happy to work for and CX will occasionally incur bypass pay commitments for those it can't 'back door' through a myriad of basings options - I didn't even know HKG was a base until recently!