Defining Greed:
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 577
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From: Gweriniaeth Cymru
kitsune,
if there were some grain of humanity between nations, rather than competition, then those developed/industrial nations would be in a position to demonstrate that the need for 300 pairs of boxer shorts is not really necessary - i.e. less greed for unnecessary things - borne out by the fact that fact that we would need 3.5 planets to maintain the global populus at the current british level of comfort/greed and the more well publicised 5 planets for the american standard - greed being the main point of this thread. Of corse if you advocate the world populus living at the same level as these nations, then what future for our/their grandchildren.
If we could demonstrate to developing nations that actually our own countries became over industrialized, to support our lifestyles of excessive consumption. Then perhaps a return to more rural/simpler/less consumptive living might temper some greed in both industrial and developing countries.
"There is enough in this world for everyones need, but not for everyones greed."
Your thoughts,
N1 Vibes
if there were some grain of humanity between nations, rather than competition, then those developed/industrial nations would be in a position to demonstrate that the need for 300 pairs of boxer shorts is not really necessary - i.e. less greed for unnecessary things - borne out by the fact that fact that we would need 3.5 planets to maintain the global populus at the current british level of comfort/greed and the more well publicised 5 planets for the american standard - greed being the main point of this thread. Of corse if you advocate the world populus living at the same level as these nations, then what future for our/their grandchildren.
If we could demonstrate to developing nations that actually our own countries became over industrialized, to support our lifestyles of excessive consumption. Then perhaps a return to more rural/simpler/less consumptive living might temper some greed in both industrial and developing countries.
"There is enough in this world for everyones need, but not for everyones greed."
Your thoughts,
N1 Vibes
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 140
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From: Asian Region:
Kitsune:
For someone who claims to have spent time in central China you don't seem to have a very good understanding of what's what. How about expressing a little appreciation and sympathy for the long suffering Chinese peasants.
It was supposed to be their revolution. They form the majority of the Chinese population (some 750 million people), and they have suffered longer and more deeply than anyone. They were promised so much. They were supposed to be liberated by the great experiment in social equality called Communism, but they have ended up back at the bottom of the pile. It is a betrayal of monumental proportions, considering the roots of the Communist revolution and its original aims, a betrayal that could end up having colossal consequences for the Communist Party of China.
828a
For someone who claims to have spent time in central China you don't seem to have a very good understanding of what's what. How about expressing a little appreciation and sympathy for the long suffering Chinese peasants.
It was supposed to be their revolution. They form the majority of the Chinese population (some 750 million people), and they have suffered longer and more deeply than anyone. They were promised so much. They were supposed to be liberated by the great experiment in social equality called Communism, but they have ended up back at the bottom of the pile. It is a betrayal of monumental proportions, considering the roots of the Communist revolution and its original aims, a betrayal that could end up having colossal consequences for the Communist Party of China.
828a
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,369
Likes: 3
From: UK.
horrific industrial accidents, airborne pollution that will slowly kill them or the swift death traffic acciden
I commenced work in 1957 and by the time I was twenty, I'd come extremely close to death in two incidents, one ashore and one in the MN.
In addition, almost drowned, fell off a bus, several pushbike and motorcycle and pedestrian accidents, stepped, inadvertently, off the back of a truck when 24 - this is boring me now; it could go on
We had coal fires then and I recollect fogs where you really had difficulty seeing more than a couple of yards.
We, in the West, have been through all that has been mentioned and more in our industrial revolution so forgive me if I refrain from piously wringing my hands over the trials and tribulations, no matter how serious and real, of others in their endeavours to join us.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 215
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From: Somewhere out there...
In my rural upbringing in what was at the time considered a developing country, you could get everything you needed in the local village shop 3 miles away (1 hour's walk). If you couldn't buy it there, you didn't actually need it, you only thought you wanted it.
Simpler times.
Simpler times.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
From: HK
what a difference a day makes..
I have been offline for a few days and N1 the thread has continued to grow and blossom beyond our discourse. I just want to say that instead of the usual feeling of sticking ones head into a toilet that one often gets following the usual topics on this forum, this thread instead is a breath of fresh air. Whether one agrees or disagrees is irrelevant but what is happening is a sharing of views as one would a good meal tasting and comparing ideas not with an attempt to convert but rather to enrich the perspectives. Well done all!
828...beautiful quotes my friend...
N1 Vibes, where have you been as I sat on many an overnight craving a decent conversation as the crew warbled on in some puerile attempt at intimacy by bashing whoever the particular collectively perceived enemy was all the while terrified to show any weakness or doubt in their confidence in the direction of the "general Matey consensus of the day"
From what I have seen in my half century of existence is often as the standards of life rises so often the quality of life declines. The more people have to loose the more fearful they become. CX was long the golden grail of aviation jobs and the cost of displacement that we have all paid in becoming ex pats is evident everywhere, KA was like to smaller brother to many who realised it was a potentially quicker route to freedom (back home) if they were clever and stable enough to hit the ground running and maximise every penny they earned. The fact is though very few have any idea of the cost to them ex pat life brings where the longer you stay, the better you become at saying goodbye to friends, family and loved ones and the further away that idea of home is. Sadly if one leaves it too late when they return home they realise time has not stood still and the person that they were when they left and the place they left are now worlds apart and so sadly often are their wife and kids. If you can and you feel you need to get yourself off those sleeping tablets, get your head out of the virtual world of the internet, get your wife off those anti depression tablets the docs hand out here like smarties on the company health insurance and get your kids off those antibiotics and revisit your dreams and priorities. If you have a base or an offer that suits grab it. Or hold your breath and jump, you can grow your wings on the way down. If you choose to stay then keep well away from the toxins, people places and media and make the best of the place and wish others well in their choices. In this narcissitic place, do something everyday to bring you out of your comfort zone and reach out to someone who needs some help.
(edit, this is a very long post...so if you are bored at this point here is me (in my dreams) singing a little melody about the magic of flying (volare and) Cantare (singing)...just look at the expression in 00:38)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YtKrXbGEAd4
Volare, oh oh
Cantare, oh oh oh oh
Let's fly way up to the clouds
Away from the maddening crowds
We can sing in the glow of a star that I know of
Where lovers enjoy peace of mind
Let us leave the confusion and all disillusion behind
Just like bird of a feather, a rainbow together we'll find
....Poi d'improvviso venivo dal vento rapito (then suddenly the winds got faster )
E incominciavo a volare nel cielo infinito (and I was flying in the infinite sky)
And I flew and flew happily to the heights of the Sun
And higher and higher into the sky.
While the world slowly, slowly
Disappeared in the distance down there.
Sweet music sounded
For me alone.
Now, Barbossa you comments on the "reverend" I believe are somewhat unfair and your discussion of "God fearing" leaves you wide open to proving such a strong position. I would suggest that God fearing is not a healthy foundation for anything to be built upon and it is our own inner demons that we should fear. God if you believe in one should not be feared I would suggest. Projection of ones own fears onto god or management or even Apple Tree yard is not the way to go.
NI you mention the effect the media has on people. Shortly after 911 THEN The IRAC Invasion SARs and up to the tsunami I realised that I was actually becoming quite frightened of the world and stressed. I also noticed that that fear was being fed and fed by hours of watching CNN Fox and reading though endless newspapers. I had become addicted to the toxic propaganda that was big shoveled out in buckets by the media. I decided to stop it. I no longer spend time in hotel rooms with the remote in my hand glued like a zombie to the TV, 2 minutes on a news channel just grabbing the headlines suffices and a glance on the headlines on the on line papers is quite enough. I can tell you something. The world seems like a much nicer place. One can still see the problems and the issues but I am not overwhelmed by despair. Out there if you look there are some magnificent authors and journalists and philosophers who can stand back and look at the bigger picture rather than stirring the crap in the pot and force feeding it as all there is. Our energy goes where our attention goes and in a world that is in such dynamic transition at the moment we should be careful what we feed our minds with.
It doesn't really matter how much damage we little humans do "to the planet" Old Mother nature will adjust and correct things her way the only ones that will suffer is us. Our measly lifespan of circa 70 years or so, is just that. I watched that movie I am Legend and the thing that struck me was the depiction of the grass growing up through the center of the city streets and the wild animals regaining their habitat in the city after a couple of years... Lets not overestimate our effect here on the plane and lets not underestimate the potential we all have as individuals and a group to begin to re balance ourselves and the damage being done.
Greed is just a mask of fear, a lack of abundance of spirit a hole in the soul that will never be filled from the outside. Its based on a feeling of being alone, separate and vulnerable and the childish idea that there is such a thing as security. Choice is always a better goal because that is within our ability to attain albeit sometimes at a sacrifice.
Busbert, I hear you! Simpler times!
828...beautiful quotes my friend...
N1 Vibes, where have you been as I sat on many an overnight craving a decent conversation as the crew warbled on in some puerile attempt at intimacy by bashing whoever the particular collectively perceived enemy was all the while terrified to show any weakness or doubt in their confidence in the direction of the "general Matey consensus of the day"
From what I have seen in my half century of existence is often as the standards of life rises so often the quality of life declines. The more people have to loose the more fearful they become. CX was long the golden grail of aviation jobs and the cost of displacement that we have all paid in becoming ex pats is evident everywhere, KA was like to smaller brother to many who realised it was a potentially quicker route to freedom (back home) if they were clever and stable enough to hit the ground running and maximise every penny they earned. The fact is though very few have any idea of the cost to them ex pat life brings where the longer you stay, the better you become at saying goodbye to friends, family and loved ones and the further away that idea of home is. Sadly if one leaves it too late when they return home they realise time has not stood still and the person that they were when they left and the place they left are now worlds apart and so sadly often are their wife and kids. If you can and you feel you need to get yourself off those sleeping tablets, get your head out of the virtual world of the internet, get your wife off those anti depression tablets the docs hand out here like smarties on the company health insurance and get your kids off those antibiotics and revisit your dreams and priorities. If you have a base or an offer that suits grab it. Or hold your breath and jump, you can grow your wings on the way down. If you choose to stay then keep well away from the toxins, people places and media and make the best of the place and wish others well in their choices. In this narcissitic place, do something everyday to bring you out of your comfort zone and reach out to someone who needs some help.
(edit, this is a very long post...so if you are bored at this point here is me (in my dreams) singing a little melody about the magic of flying (volare and) Cantare (singing)...just look at the expression in 00:38)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YtKrXbGEAd4
Volare, oh oh
Cantare, oh oh oh oh
Let's fly way up to the clouds
Away from the maddening crowds
We can sing in the glow of a star that I know of
Where lovers enjoy peace of mind
Let us leave the confusion and all disillusion behind
Just like bird of a feather, a rainbow together we'll find
....Poi d'improvviso venivo dal vento rapito (then suddenly the winds got faster )
E incominciavo a volare nel cielo infinito (and I was flying in the infinite sky)
And I flew and flew happily to the heights of the Sun
And higher and higher into the sky.
While the world slowly, slowly
Disappeared in the distance down there.
Sweet music sounded
For me alone.
Now, Barbossa you comments on the "reverend" I believe are somewhat unfair and your discussion of "God fearing" leaves you wide open to proving such a strong position. I would suggest that God fearing is not a healthy foundation for anything to be built upon and it is our own inner demons that we should fear. God if you believe in one should not be feared I would suggest. Projection of ones own fears onto god or management or even Apple Tree yard is not the way to go.
NI you mention the effect the media has on people. Shortly after 911 THEN The IRAC Invasion SARs and up to the tsunami I realised that I was actually becoming quite frightened of the world and stressed. I also noticed that that fear was being fed and fed by hours of watching CNN Fox and reading though endless newspapers. I had become addicted to the toxic propaganda that was big shoveled out in buckets by the media. I decided to stop it. I no longer spend time in hotel rooms with the remote in my hand glued like a zombie to the TV, 2 minutes on a news channel just grabbing the headlines suffices and a glance on the headlines on the on line papers is quite enough. I can tell you something. The world seems like a much nicer place. One can still see the problems and the issues but I am not overwhelmed by despair. Out there if you look there are some magnificent authors and journalists and philosophers who can stand back and look at the bigger picture rather than stirring the crap in the pot and force feeding it as all there is. Our energy goes where our attention goes and in a world that is in such dynamic transition at the moment we should be careful what we feed our minds with.
It doesn't really matter how much damage we little humans do "to the planet" Old Mother nature will adjust and correct things her way the only ones that will suffer is us. Our measly lifespan of circa 70 years or so, is just that. I watched that movie I am Legend and the thing that struck me was the depiction of the grass growing up through the center of the city streets and the wild animals regaining their habitat in the city after a couple of years... Lets not overestimate our effect here on the plane and lets not underestimate the potential we all have as individuals and a group to begin to re balance ourselves and the damage being done.
Greed is just a mask of fear, a lack of abundance of spirit a hole in the soul that will never be filled from the outside. Its based on a feeling of being alone, separate and vulnerable and the childish idea that there is such a thing as security. Choice is always a better goal because that is within our ability to attain albeit sometimes at a sacrifice.
Busbert, I hear you! Simpler times!
Last edited by volarecantare; 5th May 2008 at 17:44. Reason: concern for the boredom of readers..
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 577
Likes: 0
From: Gweriniaeth Cymru
Basil,
perhaps my point was not clear - if your neighbour was changing the wheel on his car, and he hadn't used a jack to raise the tyre off the ground, would you just sit and watch while the car fell on top of him? The west has learnt these lessons of safety/smog/pollution etc, why can't we share our knowledge with developing nations. After all the UK and US like to see themselves as the 'most developed' nations in the world, when in the pursuit of greed they have now become overdeveloped.
If anybody needs a real world perspective of priorities, try this. On my way to work a couple of weeks ago I witnessed the HKG police and fire department removing the body of the Philipina maid from DB who apparently 'drowned' after running out of her employers house in her night clothes one evening, her body wasn't found until 4 days later. Then to go into the office to have somebody rant and rave over something that was so unimportant, it was embarassing.
As volarecantare says, take a big step back, look at the world and decide what is really important for you/your family/neighbours/community/city/nation/world.
VC,
I'm right there with you on the ex-pat 'dream', as you say so many people seem to drop family and friends over the years, for this apparent 'idylic life' in HKG, very sad.
As for that conversation on a long haul sector, unfortuantely I'm not a flyer, I pilot a desk for a living.
On the media point, fully agree. 911 was about the 2nd step in opening my eyes to the fear inducing poison that is mainstream media. After having worked in an office where, due to our operational nature, we had CNN/BBC playing for 6 weeks after the event non-stop. I cannot watch the images of the twin-tower crash without feeling hollow inside - thats the psychological power of the media!
On the despair front, we all have the opportunity to help in small ways, and personally I hope that my next career step takes me somewhere with more ability to make a small difference. A positive outlook is good, some realistic navel gazing is also required.
Kitsune,
refer to reply to Basil - people don't actually have to die in order to make the world a better place.
Regards,
N1 Vibes
perhaps my point was not clear - if your neighbour was changing the wheel on his car, and he hadn't used a jack to raise the tyre off the ground, would you just sit and watch while the car fell on top of him? The west has learnt these lessons of safety/smog/pollution etc, why can't we share our knowledge with developing nations. After all the UK and US like to see themselves as the 'most developed' nations in the world, when in the pursuit of greed they have now become overdeveloped.
If anybody needs a real world perspective of priorities, try this. On my way to work a couple of weeks ago I witnessed the HKG police and fire department removing the body of the Philipina maid from DB who apparently 'drowned' after running out of her employers house in her night clothes one evening, her body wasn't found until 4 days later. Then to go into the office to have somebody rant and rave over something that was so unimportant, it was embarassing.
As volarecantare says, take a big step back, look at the world and decide what is really important for you/your family/neighbours/community/city/nation/world.
VC,
I'm right there with you on the ex-pat 'dream', as you say so many people seem to drop family and friends over the years, for this apparent 'idylic life' in HKG, very sad.
As for that conversation on a long haul sector, unfortuantely I'm not a flyer, I pilot a desk for a living.
On the media point, fully agree. 911 was about the 2nd step in opening my eyes to the fear inducing poison that is mainstream media. After having worked in an office where, due to our operational nature, we had CNN/BBC playing for 6 weeks after the event non-stop. I cannot watch the images of the twin-tower crash without feeling hollow inside - thats the psychological power of the media!
On the despair front, we all have the opportunity to help in small ways, and personally I hope that my next career step takes me somewhere with more ability to make a small difference. A positive outlook is good, some realistic navel gazing is also required.
Kitsune,
refer to reply to Basil - people don't actually have to die in order to make the world a better place.
Regards,
N1 Vibes
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 507
Likes: 43
From: US
N1 you make an excellent point. However, even in our "overdeveloped" countries we continue to make the mistakes of the past, and relearn the lessons of the past (even though these are well documented in our own history books). We've refused to acknowledge the very real opportunity costs of overregulation, and the inefficiencies of taxation and bureaucracies. None of this is new--Adam Smith wrote of this over 200 years ago. With no tangible evidence whatsoever, we're keen on establishing taxes and "carbon credits" scams (vice build new energy sources), lumping CO2 (which is actually "good" stuff) in with real pollutants (which are bad). Our oil spikes up; rather than building nuclear and renewable energy sources, we sue each other and chase our tails investigating "big oil." We haven't heeded the warning about voting moneys out of the public treasuries, see no alarm in spending in tremendous deficits, and have ignored Ben Franklin's essential liberties concept with self-paranoia. We can't even employ lessons learned from wars in our very recent past.
From the outside looking in, why should another country listen to us ?
From the outside looking in, why should another country listen to us ?
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 577
Likes: 0
From: Gweriniaeth Cymru
Shep 69,
you are so right - the west are not the shining star example, which I hope my replies did highlight. But, the defensive, nationalistic, border driven mentality in the world today means, that as you so well point out, the beauraucracies are protected inside ivory towers - whiter than white - not wishing to share any knowledge/experience with developing countries whether it be good or bad, only wanting to take. Examples - US invasion of Iraq for oil, nothing real in return - China visits to developing Afriacn nations, again for oil. Your thoughts.
Regards,
N1 Vibes
you are so right - the west are not the shining star example, which I hope my replies did highlight. But, the defensive, nationalistic, border driven mentality in the world today means, that as you so well point out, the beauraucracies are protected inside ivory towers - whiter than white - not wishing to share any knowledge/experience with developing countries whether it be good or bad, only wanting to take. Examples - US invasion of Iraq for oil, nothing real in return - China visits to developing Afriacn nations, again for oil. Your thoughts.
Regards,
N1 Vibes
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 507
Likes: 43
From: US
I think that if done properly, those who have gone down the path (if they could lay their agendas and finger pointing for failed policy aside) could contribute a great deal of valuable information. Acting in one's self interests isn't inherently bad--it drives and makes the market efficient in most situations. In some cases (national defense, pollution, asymmetric information, etc.) this doesn't work--the market fails somewhat. Pollution's an externality; the price of the thing made doesn't reflect the "bad" caused to others by the pollution--thus, there's economic justification for government involvement. This pollution has a very real long term cost to people's health and a country's economy (it's just convincing someone of this that's hard). Same as for safer working conditions--it's actually in the country's best interests to foster this (although they may not know this at present know this). China's industry is actually alot like the U.S. steel industry was early to mid 20th century.
Our problem in the U.S. is we regulate without bounds and rationality, and believe that if we write something down on paper it'll magically solve a problem or put electricity in the lines. This isn't true. I remember in college, when we'd look at regulating based on technology, we were keen to just throw out "solutions" not considering the opportunity costs. You reach a point of diminishing returns and dramatically increasing costs -- if reducing the last 10% of the soot costs 10,000 x more it isn't a good deal because you could use that money elsewhere for something much more important. This is why America hasn't built any new refineries in the last 30+ years--between the EPA and the litigation, it's not worth it. We have all kinds of coal and oil we can't burn (even though technology lets us burn it "clean enough") -- diesel's expensive here because our refineries are cutting back on the mandated low sulfur for U.S. consumption and cranking out the high sulfur, shipping it to Asia, and pocketing the $--how screwed up is that for an energy policy ? Our legislatures ban light bulbs vice build reactors (growth of our nuclear program was killed by the stroke of Jimmy Carter's pen, and we haven't had the fortitude to restart it despite needing the energy). We hold resources in reserve and let the dollar be used against us by those who don't.
I think we could pass along our knowledge (both the successes and the failures) and this is worthwhile--this level of polution control works--this much is too much (i.e. isn't worth it for the extra cost). Build a refinery over here (away from a watershed and people), and install x type of pollution control equipment, and keep the tanks above ground. This won't cost much more but will pay dividends in the long run. Consolodate your coal plants--this saves you money because it's more efficient. Put these neat scrubbers that'll pull out the NOx and SO2; not only will the air be clean, but you can get nitric and sulfuric acid to use in your industries from this process (thus having economic gain with less pollution which benefits everyone--win-win). This particular war can be won, but it might require the strategery of the late WT Sherman to accomplish--if you're not willing to do that, you might re-think starting the war. When you build your new breeder reactor, build it inherently safe (i.e. it shuts down when it begins to overheat), don't use liquid sodium, consider using the thorium cycle (vs. plutonium) and, unlike Chernobyl, install a decent containment system.
For anyone to listen, doing this requires an absolutely pragmatic (works/doesn't work), politics free analysis of things we've done in the western world, and a critical analysis of how and why they've succeeded or failed (divorced from how much we "wanted" them to succeed). It demands the messenger be someone of credibility, integrety and benevolence, free from agenda. Given our current culture of finger pointing and "is-is" here, politicians like this are hard to come by. But I think it possible that, with the right persons, an impact could be made in China and developing Asia not to make the same mistakes we did (and to use what has worked as well). It would have to be "their idea" of course
Cheers.
Our problem in the U.S. is we regulate without bounds and rationality, and believe that if we write something down on paper it'll magically solve a problem or put electricity in the lines. This isn't true. I remember in college, when we'd look at regulating based on technology, we were keen to just throw out "solutions" not considering the opportunity costs. You reach a point of diminishing returns and dramatically increasing costs -- if reducing the last 10% of the soot costs 10,000 x more it isn't a good deal because you could use that money elsewhere for something much more important. This is why America hasn't built any new refineries in the last 30+ years--between the EPA and the litigation, it's not worth it. We have all kinds of coal and oil we can't burn (even though technology lets us burn it "clean enough") -- diesel's expensive here because our refineries are cutting back on the mandated low sulfur for U.S. consumption and cranking out the high sulfur, shipping it to Asia, and pocketing the $--how screwed up is that for an energy policy ? Our legislatures ban light bulbs vice build reactors (growth of our nuclear program was killed by the stroke of Jimmy Carter's pen, and we haven't had the fortitude to restart it despite needing the energy). We hold resources in reserve and let the dollar be used against us by those who don't.
I think we could pass along our knowledge (both the successes and the failures) and this is worthwhile--this level of polution control works--this much is too much (i.e. isn't worth it for the extra cost). Build a refinery over here (away from a watershed and people), and install x type of pollution control equipment, and keep the tanks above ground. This won't cost much more but will pay dividends in the long run. Consolodate your coal plants--this saves you money because it's more efficient. Put these neat scrubbers that'll pull out the NOx and SO2; not only will the air be clean, but you can get nitric and sulfuric acid to use in your industries from this process (thus having economic gain with less pollution which benefits everyone--win-win). This particular war can be won, but it might require the strategery of the late WT Sherman to accomplish--if you're not willing to do that, you might re-think starting the war. When you build your new breeder reactor, build it inherently safe (i.e. it shuts down when it begins to overheat), don't use liquid sodium, consider using the thorium cycle (vs. plutonium) and, unlike Chernobyl, install a decent containment system.
For anyone to listen, doing this requires an absolutely pragmatic (works/doesn't work), politics free analysis of things we've done in the western world, and a critical analysis of how and why they've succeeded or failed (divorced from how much we "wanted" them to succeed). It demands the messenger be someone of credibility, integrety and benevolence, free from agenda. Given our current culture of finger pointing and "is-is" here, politicians like this are hard to come by. But I think it possible that, with the right persons, an impact could be made in China and developing Asia not to make the same mistakes we did (and to use what has worked as well). It would have to be "their idea" of course
Cheers.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,369
Likes: 3
From: UK.
I think developing nations are aware of our techniques but do not wish to divert resources to using them.
"Come along now, you Chinese! Clean up that pollution from the Pearl River delta! It's irritating us in Hong Kong!" Oh it's real all right; I recollect slight breathing problems there - or perhaps it was the stuff we carried on the freighters.
Being one's brother's keeper is all very good but, if he wishes to sit downwind of his fire without a hard hat, then, well . . .
Good ideas on this thread but why don't the idiots who lead (insert country of choice) implement them? Fingers burnt in the past, political dogma, "You don't have the big picture." syndrome, too difficult, not invented here/by our party or just want to squander resources on a narrow group of political beneficiaries. Who knows?
"Come along now, you Chinese! Clean up that pollution from the Pearl River delta! It's irritating us in Hong Kong!" Oh it's real all right; I recollect slight breathing problems there - or perhaps it was the stuff we carried on the freighters.
Being one's brother's keeper is all very good but, if he wishes to sit downwind of his fire without a hard hat, then, well . . .
Good ideas on this thread but why don't the idiots who lead (insert country of choice) implement them? Fingers burnt in the past, political dogma, "You don't have the big picture." syndrome, too difficult, not invented here/by our party or just want to squander resources on a narrow group of political beneficiaries. Who knows?
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 507
Likes: 43
From: US
I think why people/governments don't implement them (reasonable pollution controls, building energy resources, staying out of debt, regulating when appropriate but not overregulating, etc.) is primarily due to lack of foresight, the "it can't happen to me" syndrome, and the "get something for me and get out" philosophy. People lack foresight as well by allowing "leaders" who make pretty speeches full of empty promises get into any position of responsibility. We're going through this process right now. This is what makes history frustrating.
What individuals and states don't realize at the time is if their country goes down the development path like almost all before it, the bill will eventually come due. And it will involve everyone including them. The ounce of prevention will save many dollars of cure.
But it's easier to just point fingers......
What individuals and states don't realize at the time is if their country goes down the development path like almost all before it, the bill will eventually come due. And it will involve everyone including them. The ounce of prevention will save many dollars of cure.
But it's easier to just point fingers......
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
From: HK
Shep I think this is the direction things are moving albeit slowly. When the eco warriors cried out years ago people laughed at them as hippy lulas. Then slowly some companies began to see the necessity and potential benefits for them of "going green" the problem for many countries is that to recycle and create green policies which are successful it requires a substantial "back office" infrastructure. This requires a substantial amount of people to shift their mindsets into recycling, carbon footprint awareness etc in order to justify the investment. For example here in HK there have been in some quarters of the public and some recycling programs by the government so some communities have began recycling, it then transpired that the bins were all dumped into the usual generic pits infuriating the public. BUT its almost chicken and egg people need to be recycling in order to justify setting up the costly support and infrastructure to process the recycled rubbish. SO the leadership needs to come both ends. 1 from a shift in consciousness from the citizens and educational programs and 2 leadership by the Government and a joint effort to convince companies to provide the back up service and make it lucrative enough for them to do so. As caring for the environment becomes lucrative it will become more established. It will happen because as t has been said here, the cost in so many ways to ignoring these issues is biting us all on the bottom. CX will learn the same regarding their own abuses of staff. Things have a way of balancing out eventually.
ACSM, maybe you are more comfortable in the tabloids rather than the broadsheets.
ACSM, maybe you are more comfortable in the tabloids rather than the broadsheets.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
From: YVR
There’s been a hysteria of doom and gloom lately over the state of the economy. While I believe the economy is very resilient and has weathered storms worse than the current situation, it’s only natural that we see upturns and downturns in the business cycle.
The 2008 outlook for SOA is bullish regardless of the economy, but priorities could shift
SOA, in its current incarnation, has only been around during a time of upward economic growth; what happens if things get rocky? Long Dong asks a good question that needs be asked in an environment where organizations may tightening budgets a little more than their usual degree of tightness:
Brenda put the question of SOA and the economy to SOA Consortium members, and got some very interesting responses. Overall, most believed that SOA efforts will press on, especially if SOA is closely tied to business value. I like the way one industry practice leader put it: In a “downturn, people will have to be more creative, and will turn towards SOA.”
For those in organizations not inclined to encourage creativity, then keeping things close to the business as possible is the best bet for moving SOA forward. For example, as one of Brenda’s panelists point out, businesses will be looking to export markets for new growth. “Businesses will be looking at emerging and overseas markets to diversify and respond to the dollar bottoming out – manufacturing and portfolio investments. That type of business change is ripe for the development of a SOA approach.”
Another observed that regardless of overall economic conditions, businesses will still keep investing in new approaches, including social networking or Web 2.0 — and SOA is part of this. “Enterprises are beginning a rush to Web 2.0 and social networks, similar to the e-commerce rush. With the growth of Web 2.0/social networks (Google, Facebook, Yahoo!), enterprises, especially in consumer markets, will need to catch up. Both of these will result in the implementation of SOA. SOA is the backend.”
So the outlook for SOA for 2008 is quite bullish, no matter how rocky the economy gets. But still, the way SOA is sold to the organization and implemented may shift with the currents.
I also asked the question about SOA and the economy in a post back in November, and noted that SOA can be positioned to deliver in good times and bad.
If the economy were to soften, and IT budgets were reigned in even more than they are, it would mean major purchases would be forestalled or canceled. We saw this during the downturn of 2001, with pullbacks from CRM, supply chain management, and other major projects. This time around, if things got tight, companies would likely hold off on major middleware migrations, such as WebSphere, WebLogic, Netweaver, or Oracle Fusion. The impetus would go to open-source, commodity, or perhaps even in-the-cloud offerings.
The thrust of SOA in this kind of environment would need to emphasize cost-cutting and efficiency gained through reuse, sharing and standardized interfaces that cut systems integration time.
Overstretched IT staffs, of course, would not be receiving much additional help if there’s a hiring freeze in place. This could postpone SOA, since it will be all hands on deck just to keep things running, versus committing staff to major transformational efforts.
However, it could be argued that the availability of common, shareable services through SOA makes it less necessary to maintain redundant IT staffs across business units. Of course, in this kind of environment, SOA may also be employed as aeuphemism for “downsizing,” just as business process re-engineering developed a bad name in times past.
So the jury’s out on what impact SOA will have, or if it will be impacted. And for that matter, the jury’s still out on what this year’s economy will bring. But it’s always a good thing to keep projects focused on the business.
The 2008 outlook for SOA is bullish regardless of the economy, but priorities could shift
SOA, in its current incarnation, has only been around during a time of upward economic growth; what happens if things get rocky? Long Dong asks a good question that needs be asked in an environment where organizations may tightening budgets a little more than their usual degree of tightness:
What does the ensuing (or on-going) economic downturn mean for SOA in 2008? Will the economic downturn and associated budget cutbacks drive organizations to, or away from, SOA in 2008?”
Ultimately, economic conditions can drive or ditch organizational initiatives despite anyone’s best efforts. The state of the economy will shape both vendor messaging and SOA initiatives. The executives that make the decisions about SOA purchases and resources will be viewing those decisions through the lens of the economy. Those selling or advocating SOA would need to adjust their messages as well.Brenda put the question of SOA and the economy to SOA Consortium members, and got some very interesting responses. Overall, most believed that SOA efforts will press on, especially if SOA is closely tied to business value. I like the way one industry practice leader put it: In a “downturn, people will have to be more creative, and will turn towards SOA.”
For those in organizations not inclined to encourage creativity, then keeping things close to the business as possible is the best bet for moving SOA forward. For example, as one of Brenda’s panelists point out, businesses will be looking to export markets for new growth. “Businesses will be looking at emerging and overseas markets to diversify and respond to the dollar bottoming out – manufacturing and portfolio investments. That type of business change is ripe for the development of a SOA approach.”
Another observed that regardless of overall economic conditions, businesses will still keep investing in new approaches, including social networking or Web 2.0 — and SOA is part of this. “Enterprises are beginning a rush to Web 2.0 and social networks, similar to the e-commerce rush. With the growth of Web 2.0/social networks (Google, Facebook, Yahoo!), enterprises, especially in consumer markets, will need to catch up. Both of these will result in the implementation of SOA. SOA is the backend.”
So the outlook for SOA for 2008 is quite bullish, no matter how rocky the economy gets. But still, the way SOA is sold to the organization and implemented may shift with the currents.
I also asked the question about SOA and the economy in a post back in November, and noted that SOA can be positioned to deliver in good times and bad.
If the economy were to soften, and IT budgets were reigned in even more than they are, it would mean major purchases would be forestalled or canceled. We saw this during the downturn of 2001, with pullbacks from CRM, supply chain management, and other major projects. This time around, if things got tight, companies would likely hold off on major middleware migrations, such as WebSphere, WebLogic, Netweaver, or Oracle Fusion. The impetus would go to open-source, commodity, or perhaps even in-the-cloud offerings.
The thrust of SOA in this kind of environment would need to emphasize cost-cutting and efficiency gained through reuse, sharing and standardized interfaces that cut systems integration time.
Overstretched IT staffs, of course, would not be receiving much additional help if there’s a hiring freeze in place. This could postpone SOA, since it will be all hands on deck just to keep things running, versus committing staff to major transformational efforts.
However, it could be argued that the availability of common, shareable services through SOA makes it less necessary to maintain redundant IT staffs across business units. Of course, in this kind of environment, SOA may also be employed as aeuphemism for “downsizing,” just as business process re-engineering developed a bad name in times past.
So the jury’s out on what impact SOA will have, or if it will be impacted. And for that matter, the jury’s still out on what this year’s economy will bring. But it’s always a good thing to keep projects focused on the business.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 507
Likes: 43
From: US
I think there's opportunity to be had in our economic times (and don't look toward the future with doom and gloom); however, at least in the U.S. we are making some very fundamental financial mistakes (which I wouldn't feel comfortable making in my own home, much less a nation). We're carrying huge amounts of national as well as private debt without concern, propping up the economy by blowing paper money into it (hence the dollar situation). At the same time we face dramatically increasing energy costs (which are inflationary) with no plan for the future save words, and lack the industrial production of the 70's. Medical care is a substantial issue; we have all these plans by politicos with absoultely no plan for paying for it. We bog down our development with special interests--it took 4 years to win WWII and now takes more than 20 to simply build a new runway ?
The resources and people are still here so we do have an economic future; I'd just rather we not have to keep getting hit on the head with a brick before we do something to lead turn and improve our lot.
I guess we can derive solace in those timeless words: "You'll be fine..."
Cheers
The resources and people are still here so we do have an economic future; I'd just rather we not have to keep getting hit on the head with a brick before we do something to lead turn and improve our lot.
I guess we can derive solace in those timeless words: "You'll be fine..."
Cheers
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
From: YVR
The rationality of financial markets has been one of the most hotly contested issues in the
history of modern financial economics. Recent critics of the Efficient Markets Hypothesis ar-
gue that investors are generally irrational, exhibiting a number of predictable and financially
ruinous biases such as overconfidence (Fischoff and Slovic, 1980; Barber and Odean, 2001;
Gervais and Odean, 2001), overreaction (DeBondt and Thaler, 1986), loss aversion (Kah-
neman and Tversky, 1979; Shefrin and Statman, 1985; Odean, 1998), herding (Huberman
and Regev, 2001), psychological accounting (Tversky and Kahneman, 1981), miscalibration
of probabilities (Lichtenstein, Fischoff, and Phillips, 1982), and regret (Bell, 1982; Clarke,
Krase, and Statman, 1994). The sources of these irrationalities are often attributed to
psychological factors—fear, greed, and other emotional responses to price fluctuations and
dramatic changes in an investor’s wealth. In response to the mounting evidence of departures
from market efficiency, a growing number of economists, psychologists, and financial-industry
professionals have begun to use the terms “behavioral economics” and “behavioral finance”
to differentiate themselves from the standard orthodoxy.
However, recent research in the cognitive sciences and financial economics suggest an im-
portant link between rationality in decisionmaking and emotion (Grossberg and Gutowski,
1987; Damasio, 1994; Elster, 1998; Lo, 1999; Loewenstein, 2000; Peters and Slovic, 2000),
implying that the two notions are not antithetical, but in fact complementary. For exam-
ple, in a pilot study of 10 professional securities traders during live trading sessions, Lo
and Repin (2002) present psychophysiological evidence that even the most seasoned trader
exhibits significant emotional response—as measured by elevated levels of skin conductance
and cardiovascular variables—during certain transient market events such as increased price
volatility or intra-day breaks in trend. In a series of case studies, Steenbarger (2002) also
presents evidence linking emotion with trading performance.
history of modern financial economics. Recent critics of the Efficient Markets Hypothesis ar-
gue that investors are generally irrational, exhibiting a number of predictable and financially
ruinous biases such as overconfidence (Fischoff and Slovic, 1980; Barber and Odean, 2001;
Gervais and Odean, 2001), overreaction (DeBondt and Thaler, 1986), loss aversion (Kah-
neman and Tversky, 1979; Shefrin and Statman, 1985; Odean, 1998), herding (Huberman
and Regev, 2001), psychological accounting (Tversky and Kahneman, 1981), miscalibration
of probabilities (Lichtenstein, Fischoff, and Phillips, 1982), and regret (Bell, 1982; Clarke,
Krase, and Statman, 1994). The sources of these irrationalities are often attributed to
psychological factors—fear, greed, and other emotional responses to price fluctuations and
dramatic changes in an investor’s wealth. In response to the mounting evidence of departures
from market efficiency, a growing number of economists, psychologists, and financial-industry
professionals have begun to use the terms “behavioral economics” and “behavioral finance”
to differentiate themselves from the standard orthodoxy.
However, recent research in the cognitive sciences and financial economics suggest an im-
portant link between rationality in decisionmaking and emotion (Grossberg and Gutowski,
1987; Damasio, 1994; Elster, 1998; Lo, 1999; Loewenstein, 2000; Peters and Slovic, 2000),
implying that the two notions are not antithetical, but in fact complementary. For exam-
ple, in a pilot study of 10 professional securities traders during live trading sessions, Lo
and Repin (2002) present psychophysiological evidence that even the most seasoned trader
exhibits significant emotional response—as measured by elevated levels of skin conductance
and cardiovascular variables—during certain transient market events such as increased price
volatility or intra-day breaks in trend. In a series of case studies, Steenbarger (2002) also
presents evidence linking emotion with trading performance.
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 577
Likes: 0
From: Gweriniaeth Cymru
Captain TOGA,
a good point, borne out by the behaviour of the HKG stock market - driven by the hope/fears of the investors and traders. With an extremely hyped media, it only takes Stanley Ho to have a bad bowel movement reported in the newspapers to put the market into a flat-spin.
VC/Shep 69,
a 2 sided approach to encouraging concerns/action on the environment, but why does the state have to make the running? Is it because in mass society that individuals are so 'molly-coddled' that they need th state to tell them whats happening right in front of their eyes?
Some reading of Carl Gustav Jungs thoughts on the behaviour of an individual in todays mass society/state control and even under religious dogma might enlighten us to the reasons for individual behaviour today. And may also hold clues to the behaviour of investors and market traders as described by Captain TOGA.
Mass minded behaviour, that is manipulated by state/democratic/religious dogma, has very much eroded individual thinking/behaviour.
(CG Jung - The Undiscovered Self - interesting reading)
ACMS,
http://www.mirror.co.uk/
http://www.thesun.co.uk/
http://www.maximonline.com/
http://www.parishilton.com/
Regards,
N1 Vibes
a good point, borne out by the behaviour of the HKG stock market - driven by the hope/fears of the investors and traders. With an extremely hyped media, it only takes Stanley Ho to have a bad bowel movement reported in the newspapers to put the market into a flat-spin.
VC/Shep 69,
a 2 sided approach to encouraging concerns/action on the environment, but why does the state have to make the running? Is it because in mass society that individuals are so 'molly-coddled' that they need th state to tell them whats happening right in front of their eyes?
Some reading of Carl Gustav Jungs thoughts on the behaviour of an individual in todays mass society/state control and even under religious dogma might enlighten us to the reasons for individual behaviour today. And may also hold clues to the behaviour of investors and market traders as described by Captain TOGA.
Mass minded behaviour, that is manipulated by state/democratic/religious dogma, has very much eroded individual thinking/behaviour.
(CG Jung - The Undiscovered Self - interesting reading)
ACMS,
http://www.mirror.co.uk/
http://www.thesun.co.uk/
http://www.maximonline.com/
http://www.parishilton.com/
Regards,
N1 Vibes