Defining Greed:
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Asian Region:
Defining Greed:
"All else, valour, a good name, glory, everything in heaven and earth is secondary to the charm of riches". Horace.
Written 2000 years ago by the Roman philosopher Quintus Horace and could easily have been penned yesterday. Nothing has changed.
828a
Written 2000 years ago by the Roman philosopher Quintus Horace and could easily have been penned yesterday. Nothing has changed.
828a
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 424
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From: Everywhere
If you are a religious person
About the same time.
A holy man was having a conversation with the Lord one day and said, 'Lord, I would like to know what Heaven and Hell are like.'
The Lord led the holy man to two doors.
He opened one of the doors and the holy man looked in. In the middle of the room was a large round table. In the middle of the table was a large pot of stew, which smelled delicious and made the holy man's mouth water.
The people sitting around the table were thin and sickly. They appeared to be famished. They were holding spoons with very long handles that were strapped to their arms and each found it possible to reach into the pot of stew and take a spoonful. But because the handle was longer than their arms, they could not get the spoons back into their mouths.
The holy man shuddered at the sight of their misery and suffering.
The Lord said, 'You have seen Hell.'
They went to the next room and opened the door. It was exactly the same as the first one. There was the large round table with the large pot of stew which made the holy man's mouth water. The people were equipped with the same long-handled spoons, but here the people were well nourished and plump, laughing and talking. The holy man said, 'I don't understand.'
It is simple,' said the Lord. 'It requires but one skill. You see they have learned to feed each other, while the greedy think only of themselves.'
A holy man was having a conversation with the Lord one day and said, 'Lord, I would like to know what Heaven and Hell are like.'
The Lord led the holy man to two doors.
He opened one of the doors and the holy man looked in. In the middle of the room was a large round table. In the middle of the table was a large pot of stew, which smelled delicious and made the holy man's mouth water.
The people sitting around the table were thin and sickly. They appeared to be famished. They were holding spoons with very long handles that were strapped to their arms and each found it possible to reach into the pot of stew and take a spoonful. But because the handle was longer than their arms, they could not get the spoons back into their mouths.
The holy man shuddered at the sight of their misery and suffering.
The Lord said, 'You have seen Hell.'
They went to the next room and opened the door. It was exactly the same as the first one. There was the large round table with the large pot of stew which made the holy man's mouth water. The people were equipped with the same long-handled spoons, but here the people were well nourished and plump, laughing and talking. The holy man said, 'I don't understand.'
It is simple,' said the Lord. 'It requires but one skill. You see they have learned to feed each other, while the greedy think only of themselves.'
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 198
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From: Hotel
"The average CEO made 42 times the average worker's pay in 1980. That increased to 85 times in 1990 and is now over 300 times."
Capitalism is out of control and morally bankrupt. It is doing less and less to improve the lives of the masses. It is a vicious circle of diminishing returns.
I have no problem with people getting rich - but I do have a problem with everybody else getting poorer in the process.
Never in the history of this planet have we had as much power as we have right now to improve the lives of all - and what do we choose to do....
Capitalism is out of control and morally bankrupt. It is doing less and less to improve the lives of the masses. It is a vicious circle of diminishing returns.
I have no problem with people getting rich - but I do have a problem with everybody else getting poorer in the process.
Never in the history of this planet have we had as much power as we have right now to improve the lives of all - and what do we choose to do....
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 140
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From: Asian Region:
Mr. Bloggs;
Not bad ; of course the last sentence sums it up nicely because what that sentence says is so very true. Unfortunately the greedy do not recognise that they are greedy, it's a failing of human nature.
828a.
Not bad ; of course the last sentence sums it up nicely because what that sentence says is so very true. Unfortunately the greedy do not recognise that they are greedy, it's a failing of human nature.
828a.
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 199
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From: Sai Kungah
Missing Blade,
Your quote: “Capitalism is out of control and morally bankrupt. It is doing less and less to improve the lives of the masses…I have no problem with people getting rich - but I do have a problem with everybody else getting poorer in the process.” is standard fare in many circles, but most notably on the Left (used to be known as Communists); this notion, that economic growth is morally tainted is far from new, but is also, thankfully, wrong.
Mr Benjamin Friedman, in “The Moral Consequences of Economic Growth” writes extremely persuasively about the many issues involved, and talks about how “…the value of a rising standard of living lies not just in the concrete improvements it brings to how individuals live but in how it shapes the social, political and ultimately the moral character of a people.”
The Economist mentions that growing prosperity makes people more tolerant, more willing to settle disputes peacefully, more inclined to favour democracy. Stagnation and economic decline are associated with intolerance, ethnic strife and dictatorship. Think of the few countries in the world that currently actively avoid capitalism – and pursue a policy of isolationism - (North Korea, Cuba, Myanmar, even China 30 years ago) and it should be painfully clear that “a rising tide lifts all ships”.
I will grant you that not all people get richer at the same rate, but there is no question in my mind that nearly everybody (or every cohort) is now better off than they were a few decades ago. Just think of the current poverty line: it used to be USD1 per person per day. The material benefits of growth, chiefly in the form of extra goods and services, become available to everyone over time.
I cannot argue with your quote: “"The average CEO made 42 times the average worker's pay in 1980. That increased to 85 times in 1990 and is now over 300 times." because, although not attributed, I can believe that it is probably correct. However, the real nub of this problem is that (as someone who has been here longer than I mentioned) in the early 90s, a Cathay Captain was earning close to 20 times the average Male Earnings in Australia, and yet now the multiplier is probably about 4 times. The other problem is that society’s presumption about our job is still stuck in the 90s: they think we earn a million bucks and have 18 days off a month (like we used to!).
This is probably the reason we are all feeling “poor” and why we feel we deserve a pay rise. Maybe – if we don’t do something - in 10 year’s time our wage will equal the average Male Earnings?
Your quote: “Capitalism is out of control and morally bankrupt. It is doing less and less to improve the lives of the masses…I have no problem with people getting rich - but I do have a problem with everybody else getting poorer in the process.” is standard fare in many circles, but most notably on the Left (used to be known as Communists); this notion, that economic growth is morally tainted is far from new, but is also, thankfully, wrong.
Mr Benjamin Friedman, in “The Moral Consequences of Economic Growth” writes extremely persuasively about the many issues involved, and talks about how “…the value of a rising standard of living lies not just in the concrete improvements it brings to how individuals live but in how it shapes the social, political and ultimately the moral character of a people.”
The Economist mentions that growing prosperity makes people more tolerant, more willing to settle disputes peacefully, more inclined to favour democracy. Stagnation and economic decline are associated with intolerance, ethnic strife and dictatorship. Think of the few countries in the world that currently actively avoid capitalism – and pursue a policy of isolationism - (North Korea, Cuba, Myanmar, even China 30 years ago) and it should be painfully clear that “a rising tide lifts all ships”.
I will grant you that not all people get richer at the same rate, but there is no question in my mind that nearly everybody (or every cohort) is now better off than they were a few decades ago. Just think of the current poverty line: it used to be USD1 per person per day. The material benefits of growth, chiefly in the form of extra goods and services, become available to everyone over time.
I cannot argue with your quote: “"The average CEO made 42 times the average worker's pay in 1980. That increased to 85 times in 1990 and is now over 300 times." because, although not attributed, I can believe that it is probably correct. However, the real nub of this problem is that (as someone who has been here longer than I mentioned) in the early 90s, a Cathay Captain was earning close to 20 times the average Male Earnings in Australia, and yet now the multiplier is probably about 4 times. The other problem is that society’s presumption about our job is still stuck in the 90s: they think we earn a million bucks and have 18 days off a month (like we used to!).
This is probably the reason we are all feeling “poor” and why we feel we deserve a pay rise. Maybe – if we don’t do something - in 10 year’s time our wage will equal the average Male Earnings?
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 198
Likes: 2
From: Hotel
Jedthrust.
You are mostly correct. I am not a socialist and I understand we have no replacement for the efficiency of capitalism. It is sucessfull purely because it frees people up to PURSUE THEIR OWN INTEREST. This is human nature as Pavlov and his dog demonstrated.
HOWEVER - Cultural institutions are being eroded, nature is being destroyed, and human beings are in danger of self-destruction if their orgy of consumerism, production, and technological advancement continues unabated.
In America people go hungry. In the Middle East the corrupt sheiks keep their people poor and ignorant while they make billions and America bombs them. In HKG I shudder every time I see a grandma pickin up carton boxes to sell in the street. This city was built by those people and what do they have to show for it? In Africa the world turns a blind eye to unspeakable abuse etc etc etc.
The greatest promise of capitalism is not being fulfilled fast enough. I think a certain amount of environmental conservation/ education/upliftment should be legally required from all sucessfull capitalists. If all big corporates are legally forced to invest a percentage of their billions in bettering this world the promise of capitalism will be a reality so much sooner.
And the rich can still be rich - there's enough to go around.
You are mostly correct. I am not a socialist and I understand we have no replacement for the efficiency of capitalism. It is sucessfull purely because it frees people up to PURSUE THEIR OWN INTEREST. This is human nature as Pavlov and his dog demonstrated.
HOWEVER - Cultural institutions are being eroded, nature is being destroyed, and human beings are in danger of self-destruction if their orgy of consumerism, production, and technological advancement continues unabated.
In America people go hungry. In the Middle East the corrupt sheiks keep their people poor and ignorant while they make billions and America bombs them. In HKG I shudder every time I see a grandma pickin up carton boxes to sell in the street. This city was built by those people and what do they have to show for it? In Africa the world turns a blind eye to unspeakable abuse etc etc etc.
The greatest promise of capitalism is not being fulfilled fast enough. I think a certain amount of environmental conservation/ education/upliftment should be legally required from all sucessfull capitalists. If all big corporates are legally forced to invest a percentage of their billions in bettering this world the promise of capitalism will be a reality so much sooner.
And the rich can still be rich - there's enough to go around.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 686
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From: .
What a pleasure to read a thread where all the contributors are able to spell correctly. Thankyou Gentlemen.
Hello, is that the spelling police? I would like to report a crime
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 140
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From: Asian Region:
jed thrust.
missing blade.
sylversurfer.
You three gents have certainly given the viewers a little something to think about.
jed thrust: I cannot agree with your assertions that economic growth is not morally tainted. The very essence of what has been said on these boards ( as replies ) indicates in no uncertain terms that it is tainted. Congratulations on the rest of your comments.
missing blade: I'm with you because I also shudder when I see that very same Grandma sorting street rubbish . It is not easy to look the other way and remain comfortable. Things have got to change.
sylversurfer: I'm with you too, well said.
828a.
P.S. gerbil1: It's been my contention for some time that Cathay should issue a good dictionary and a good thesaurus to all it's flight deck crew. The spelling police will now have me on their " most wanted list " for saying that, just you wait and see.
missing blade.
sylversurfer.
You three gents have certainly given the viewers a little something to think about.
jed thrust: I cannot agree with your assertions that economic growth is not morally tainted. The very essence of what has been said on these boards ( as replies ) indicates in no uncertain terms that it is tainted. Congratulations on the rest of your comments.
missing blade: I'm with you because I also shudder when I see that very same Grandma sorting street rubbish . It is not easy to look the other way and remain comfortable. Things have got to change.
sylversurfer: I'm with you too, well said.
828a.
P.S. gerbil1: It's been my contention for some time that Cathay should issue a good dictionary and a good thesaurus to all it's flight deck crew. The spelling police will now have me on their " most wanted list " for saying that, just you wait and see.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 140
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From: Asian Region:
Zoologist:
Modern punctuation is the written expression of vocal intonation, only the speaker, therefore, is in a position to correctly evaluate the use of an exclamation mark. Your call.
828a
Modern punctuation is the written expression of vocal intonation, only the speaker, therefore, is in a position to correctly evaluate the use of an exclamation mark. Your call.
828a
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
From: UK
I hate to get involved in your spat, but the following is a reasonable interpretation of the rules of punctuation in this case:
Exclamation marks may be repeated for additional emphasis ("That's great!!!"), but this practice is generally considered unacceptable in formal composition.
I guess it comes down to whether you consider pprune to be a formal composition or not.
Exclamation marks may be repeated for additional emphasis ("That's great!!!"), but this practice is generally considered unacceptable in formal composition.
I guess it comes down to whether you consider pprune to be a formal composition or not.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 113
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From: HK
Great to see this side shine more thank the usual 12 angry man scenes...delightfullll !!!!!!!!
"Any clever man may sometimes see the truth in flashes; any scientific man may put some aspect of the truth into technical words; yet all this hardly deserves the name of philosophy so long as the heart remains unabashed, and we continue to live like animals lost in the stream of our impressions, not only in the public routine and necessary cares of life, but even in our silent thoughts and affections."
-- George Santayana, "Ultimate Religion,"
"Any clever man may sometimes see the truth in flashes; any scientific man may put some aspect of the truth into technical words; yet all this hardly deserves the name of philosophy so long as the heart remains unabashed, and we continue to live like animals lost in the stream of our impressions, not only in the public routine and necessary cares of life, but even in our silent thoughts and affections."
-- George Santayana, "Ultimate Religion,"
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 577
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From: Gweriniaeth Cymru
My two-penneth,
if you felt the urge to do something for the grandma in the street, you may give money/shelter/food something like that. But, then you might use the old adage "if I give money/shelter/food to one needy person should I not give equally to all?". Here you might think about giving to/starting a charity, to provide larger, more equal sums, to more people - a commendable thing. But, most charities need organisation, hierarchy etc, so you're pretty much back to a business type structure, a democracy. Where even the fairest boss may actually thinking about themselves/company/charity before others.
Therefore going back to the second quotation in this thread, from Mr Bloggs, and I'm not a religious type in any way, isn't it actually a humanist approach that may have the best result for the human race/planet? I.e. all working with each other, fo the same goal of survival, rather than for a boss/government/state or oneself etc?
Hoping this isn't thread drift, and that mY spElLiNg/punCtuAti0n wAS c0rrect!
Regards,
N1 Vibes
if you felt the urge to do something for the grandma in the street, you may give money/shelter/food something like that. But, then you might use the old adage "if I give money/shelter/food to one needy person should I not give equally to all?". Here you might think about giving to/starting a charity, to provide larger, more equal sums, to more people - a commendable thing. But, most charities need organisation, hierarchy etc, so you're pretty much back to a business type structure, a democracy. Where even the fairest boss may actually thinking about themselves/company/charity before others.
Therefore going back to the second quotation in this thread, from Mr Bloggs, and I'm not a religious type in any way, isn't it actually a humanist approach that may have the best result for the human race/planet? I.e. all working with each other, fo the same goal of survival, rather than for a boss/government/state or oneself etc?
Hoping this isn't thread drift, and that mY spElLiNg/punCtuAti0n wAS c0rrect!
Regards,
N1 Vibes
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 198
Likes: 2
From: Hotel
Humanism is a great idea - but is contrary to our animal nature.
Capitalism is successful because it depends on the animal instinct to feed yourself first. However we somehow developed GREED ( which started this thread )
Animals don't seem to have this thing for greed - they will have their fill and then let the others eat.
More and more this seems to be the overriding 'benefit' of our so called superior intellect and creativity - perverting everything that is natural.
This process only seems to overturn itself after extreme excess has been achieved (Bill Gates had to be the richest man on earth before he pledged to give it all away ) and then realize that you simply have no use for all that cash.....
Unfortunately the average new capitalist is too happy splurging on yachts to think about the sweatshop worker creating his product or the C scaler having to cough up a $ 120 000 bribe (debenture in capitalist speak ) to get his kid into an English school in HKG
Capitalism is successful because it depends on the animal instinct to feed yourself first. However we somehow developed GREED ( which started this thread )
Animals don't seem to have this thing for greed - they will have their fill and then let the others eat.
More and more this seems to be the overriding 'benefit' of our so called superior intellect and creativity - perverting everything that is natural.
This process only seems to overturn itself after extreme excess has been achieved (Bill Gates had to be the richest man on earth before he pledged to give it all away ) and then realize that you simply have no use for all that cash.....
Unfortunately the average new capitalist is too happy splurging on yachts to think about the sweatshop worker creating his product or the C scaler having to cough up a $ 120 000 bribe (debenture in capitalist speak ) to get his kid into an English school in HKG