Attn Cx And Ka Management
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Why don't the AOA and DPA Union hire some competent professional advisers, with business, PR and legal expertise to help them develop and prepare a case to present an integration solution to the Shareholders/board of Directors, bypassing Management? Show the shareholders that we can come up with crew and cost saving proposals without the slash and cut methods previously employed.
Last edited by volarecantare; 23rd Feb 2008 at 11:08.
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Come on boys and girls band together 100% united for the best deal for everyone.
United front the companies will have no other option.
Why have the two unions not had meetings back in September 2006 to sought out the future and have a united front to the company just amazes me.
Aeroplanes don't fly themselves the airlines still require us, sometimes they appear to forget that Pilots are a very important part of the airline.
United front the companies will have no other option.
Why have the two unions not had meetings back in September 2006 to sought out the future and have a united front to the company just amazes me.
Aeroplanes don't fly themselves the airlines still require us, sometimes they appear to forget that Pilots are a very important part of the airline.
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OldSmithy, ask yourself the same thing they are, "Whats in it for them? 
" Can we undercut them for shinny new jets? Maybe. Can we be used against them in future T&C negotiations? Not really. We are more expensive in some areas. Not looking good, so keep the lists seperate, until we become a threat to them, they wont be interested. Would we integrate them if the roles were reversed?
" Can we undercut them for shinny new jets? Maybe. Can we be used against them in future T&C negotiations? Not really. We are more expensive in some areas. Not looking good, so keep the lists seperate, until we become a threat to them, they wont be interested. Would we integrate them if the roles were reversed?
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"Whats in it for them?"
Lowkoon,
Don't understand the "them" in your question. Be in no doubt, this will be driven by Cathay, ie Swire... and the various departments are under pressure to reduce costs by way of the takeover (Economies of scale). Watch for the following;
1. FLt Ops will want the ability for all 330 qualified pilots to fly any 330. To do this the Ka and Cx SOPs/ checklists are going to morph into one. The 744 procedures are identical as they were formulated by the same chap!!
2. Rostering will be done by the same dept. New roster practices coming Ka's way... that could be good news....maybe...?
3. To stem the flow of pilots leaving Ka, they will have to offer at least the "prospect" of access to Cx bases and lifestyle rosters that come with ULH... is that a light at the end of the tunnel... or a train coming the other way?
For Cathay/Swire, putting Ka pilots on the bottom of the Cx list is a quick easy fix as it avoids a fight with the larger pilot group. However, whether it achieves the important point 3 above is up to the Ka pilot group.
This whole issue doesn't even feature on most Cx pilot's radar yet, so the ball's very much in your Court chaps.....
Don't understand the "them" in your question. Be in no doubt, this will be driven by Cathay, ie Swire... and the various departments are under pressure to reduce costs by way of the takeover (Economies of scale). Watch for the following;
1. FLt Ops will want the ability for all 330 qualified pilots to fly any 330. To do this the Ka and Cx SOPs/ checklists are going to morph into one. The 744 procedures are identical as they were formulated by the same chap!!
2. Rostering will be done by the same dept. New roster practices coming Ka's way... that could be good news....maybe...?
3. To stem the flow of pilots leaving Ka, they will have to offer at least the "prospect" of access to Cx bases and lifestyle rosters that come with ULH... is that a light at the end of the tunnel... or a train coming the other way?
For Cathay/Swire, putting Ka pilots on the bottom of the Cx list is a quick easy fix as it avoids a fight with the larger pilot group. However, whether it achieves the important point 3 above is up to the Ka pilot group.
This whole issue doesn't even feature on most Cx pilot's radar yet, so the ball's very much in your Court chaps.....
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Liam, a thought provoking response. I agree with everything except the ball is in our court. Please let me explain why.
The "They" I was referring to was the recalcitrant CX pilots that think it wont happen, and probably doesn't effect them even if it did. I have no doubt the management have seen the benefits of 2 separate pilot groups aligned by SOPS and no industrial ties. They will be dying to play us off against each other at the first opportunity. We both agree on that, blind freddy could see it.
AIPA, (QF), openly admit their biggest mistake was not getting everyone "on-board" that was part of the "group". It was because of the aloof arrogance being displayed by AOA. The result was not to the larger pilots bodies liking, and that was with all the protections of Australian industrial law, so imagine what cx could achieve here with Hong Kong laws? You would think that the initiative should be coming from AOA, not the DPA, as we (KA) have the most to gain, and the AOA the most to lose. Whats the worst thing that can happen to us? We go to the bottom of the list, and fly to all the worst destinations in the "Group" network? How is that different from now? Any slight gain is an improvement on this.
The way I see it, the AOA need us onside so we don't maneuver to improve our situation at the expense of AOA members. Moronic attitudes like "What part of takeover don't you understand etc" just serve to fuel a simmering fire that will only burn those that think they are immune to being burnt. Thats in no way a threat, remember these decisions wont be made by pilots, just management trying to maximise the potential of "Group synergy". Its just a reality that there will be less resistance from KA guys to a shafting of the CX guys if they are already left out in the cold industrially.
If none of those reasons spawn communication, how about Sun Tzu's "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer"? AOAs next move will determine which group the DPA guys fall into. AOA has a great opportunity to attract a very useful ally. The KA guys collectively urge them not to waste it. Therefore we feel the ball is well and truely in the AOA court.
The "They" I was referring to was the recalcitrant CX pilots that think it wont happen, and probably doesn't effect them even if it did. I have no doubt the management have seen the benefits of 2 separate pilot groups aligned by SOPS and no industrial ties. They will be dying to play us off against each other at the first opportunity. We both agree on that, blind freddy could see it.
AIPA, (QF), openly admit their biggest mistake was not getting everyone "on-board" that was part of the "group". It was because of the aloof arrogance being displayed by AOA. The result was not to the larger pilots bodies liking, and that was with all the protections of Australian industrial law, so imagine what cx could achieve here with Hong Kong laws? You would think that the initiative should be coming from AOA, not the DPA, as we (KA) have the most to gain, and the AOA the most to lose. Whats the worst thing that can happen to us? We go to the bottom of the list, and fly to all the worst destinations in the "Group" network? How is that different from now? Any slight gain is an improvement on this.
The way I see it, the AOA need us onside so we don't maneuver to improve our situation at the expense of AOA members. Moronic attitudes like "What part of takeover don't you understand etc" just serve to fuel a simmering fire that will only burn those that think they are immune to being burnt. Thats in no way a threat, remember these decisions wont be made by pilots, just management trying to maximise the potential of "Group synergy". Its just a reality that there will be less resistance from KA guys to a shafting of the CX guys if they are already left out in the cold industrially.
If none of those reasons spawn communication, how about Sun Tzu's "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer"? AOAs next move will determine which group the DPA guys fall into. AOA has a great opportunity to attract a very useful ally. The KA guys collectively urge them not to waste it. Therefore we feel the ball is well and truely in the AOA court.
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I believe CX pilots need to carefully consider the following probable eventualities:
1. Workforce. In the next 6 mths there will be a further significant exodus of the already depleted KA pilot group, meaning someone has to pick up the slack to service the world's 2nd biggest aviation market. KA certainly needs some relief in order to run this Bangalore rte starting in May. Management may be depending on getting a bunch of Man freighter guys onto the Airbus fleet, however trng is an extra burden on resources and word is these guys will simply take the endorsement and run - a net penalty in productivity. They can't simply recruit their way out of this problem as the flow of pilots out of HKG will definitely outweigh the available suitable candidates.
2. Rate of effort. CX/KA management can no longer take the easy option and simply cancel flts to meet manpower constraints, as there is soon to be competition from HK Airlines/HK Express on the lucrative trunk rtes. Loss of market share will be hard to win back. Rostering will slowly become uniform between to the 2 carriers as the extra flex in CX is used up to fill the manpower void. ie At least all HKG based CX pilots will be working as hard as a KA pilot. (welcome to 9 'G' days/mth, min rest in HKG etc)
3. Pay. Damage control re the above will result in KA pilots being offered even greater pay incentives to stay. This will only retain a few fence-sitters, many will still leave as the bucket of s*#t is well and truly full. Any cost neutral future promises (integration with CX, basing options etc), are all known to be quite empty due to RA65 and therefore ineffective. The irony is that KA pilots will soon likely be paid more than pilots of the parent co. Remember KA no.s are already critical and the OT threshold is lower than CX (ie 75hrs).
Sorry to be the harbinger of bad news, but can't anyone else see this? (lowkoon excepted). Life at KA can't really get any worse, but there is certainly some distance to fall for CX pilots.
The only solution is to combine forces and ensure everyone is at least on the same wicket and receiving equal and best possible remuneration and opportunities in the future. I'm not pointing this out due to a sense of altruism, but merely practicality. Sometime down the track, management will seek to win back the ground they lost through rapacious divide and conquer tactics, which will adversely affect all of us .
The msge is, support the DPAs case now re the manchester freighter guys and in turn the DPA will support you against the inevitable shafting heading your way.
1. Workforce. In the next 6 mths there will be a further significant exodus of the already depleted KA pilot group, meaning someone has to pick up the slack to service the world's 2nd biggest aviation market. KA certainly needs some relief in order to run this Bangalore rte starting in May. Management may be depending on getting a bunch of Man freighter guys onto the Airbus fleet, however trng is an extra burden on resources and word is these guys will simply take the endorsement and run - a net penalty in productivity. They can't simply recruit their way out of this problem as the flow of pilots out of HKG will definitely outweigh the available suitable candidates.
2. Rate of effort. CX/KA management can no longer take the easy option and simply cancel flts to meet manpower constraints, as there is soon to be competition from HK Airlines/HK Express on the lucrative trunk rtes. Loss of market share will be hard to win back. Rostering will slowly become uniform between to the 2 carriers as the extra flex in CX is used up to fill the manpower void. ie At least all HKG based CX pilots will be working as hard as a KA pilot. (welcome to 9 'G' days/mth, min rest in HKG etc)
3. Pay. Damage control re the above will result in KA pilots being offered even greater pay incentives to stay. This will only retain a few fence-sitters, many will still leave as the bucket of s*#t is well and truly full. Any cost neutral future promises (integration with CX, basing options etc), are all known to be quite empty due to RA65 and therefore ineffective. The irony is that KA pilots will soon likely be paid more than pilots of the parent co. Remember KA no.s are already critical and the OT threshold is lower than CX (ie 75hrs).
Sorry to be the harbinger of bad news, but can't anyone else see this? (lowkoon excepted). Life at KA can't really get any worse, but there is certainly some distance to fall for CX pilots.
The only solution is to combine forces and ensure everyone is at least on the same wicket and receiving equal and best possible remuneration and opportunities in the future. I'm not pointing this out due to a sense of altruism, but merely practicality. Sometime down the track, management will seek to win back the ground they lost through rapacious divide and conquer tactics, which will adversely affect all of us .
The msge is, support the DPAs case now re the manchester freighter guys and in turn the DPA will support you against the inevitable shafting heading your way.
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100% agree CX pilots time to wake up and smell the roses. I do realise that is a very difficult task given the pollution in the smokey COUNTRY
GUN at 60 paces....................................................... ..........
GUN at 60 paces....................................................... ..........
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The ball is in KA's Court
Pollution IV appears to have outlined the issues... however,
Please don't take the relatively small number of views being expressed on pprune as in anyway a sample of the views of Cx pilots. I am fairly comfortable to express the opinion that for most Cx pilots; being the Captains and the FO's, this is a non-issue. Rightly, or wrongly, they do not see themselves being unduly affected by an Integration. Obviously, the first time a Cx 330 CN is handed a roster dominated by trips to the Mainland or a FO is offered either a 320 Command or Cat B (not suitable for Command): things will change for some....
If you guys go quietly into the night.... you will be on the bottom of the list and continue to do what you do and all will be happy.... nes pas.. Continue to leave and Cathay will have to revisit the idea of you being on the bottom of the list for the reasons outlined by Pollution IV.
A couple of other points; it is an open secret that the AOA and DPA are talking. I would guess one item that is being discussed is the industrial landscape after Integration; the practicalities of maintaining 2 Unions, which Union does a new joiner join; does one union wither on the vine...?
I know as a Cx pilot I do not understand the life of Ka pilot; except that I happy with my decision to join Cx and not Ka. However, Pollution IV, your comments at the end of Para 2 illustrate that you have no idea what our 330 and 777 pilots do......
Please don't take the relatively small number of views being expressed on pprune as in anyway a sample of the views of Cx pilots. I am fairly comfortable to express the opinion that for most Cx pilots; being the Captains and the FO's, this is a non-issue. Rightly, or wrongly, they do not see themselves being unduly affected by an Integration. Obviously, the first time a Cx 330 CN is handed a roster dominated by trips to the Mainland or a FO is offered either a 320 Command or Cat B (not suitable for Command): things will change for some....
If you guys go quietly into the night.... you will be on the bottom of the list and continue to do what you do and all will be happy.... nes pas.. Continue to leave and Cathay will have to revisit the idea of you being on the bottom of the list for the reasons outlined by Pollution IV.
A couple of other points; it is an open secret that the AOA and DPA are talking. I would guess one item that is being discussed is the industrial landscape after Integration; the practicalities of maintaining 2 Unions, which Union does a new joiner join; does one union wither on the vine...?
I know as a Cx pilot I do not understand the life of Ka pilot; except that I happy with my decision to join Cx and not Ka. However, Pollution IV, your comments at the end of Para 2 illustrate that you have no idea what our 330 and 777 pilots do......
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Dont make the mistake of thinking if you dont make the grade (Cat B) in CX, you will cruise through, and be offered a 320 command. It could be argued, and I think quite fairly, that it is harder to earn your extra stripe on the 320 than it would be on the 330. Have a look at their route structure. It didnt earn the nickname "Jedi Fleet" because they are giving commands away over there.
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that wasnt his point, he was refering to CX forcing a FO to go to the 320 or they would cat B him, I for one would hate to give up my 330/777 prospect of a command for a 320, at least on either the heavy twins there is a lifestyle attached. Its all about pay and days off, and the 320 doesnt do the days of that we are used too.
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A320 COULD have lifestyle is rostered properly.
Many airlines in the world operate B737/A320 on 4 on 4 off, 5 on 5 off ect..
If the CX rostering machine can get a hold of the KA roster..good things could happen.
Many airlines in the world operate B737/A320 on 4 on 4 off, 5 on 5 off ect..
If the CX rostering machine can get a hold of the KA roster..good things could happen.
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kabuuzz: "whos going to sign up knowing there are 1000+ F/Os (potentially) ahead of you for a Ka command?"
The Y scheme is the only way to go. Nobody will join KA. They will join CX and have the option to go to KA if they want the command earlier.
Disadvantages nobody. Helps CX as it fills KA seats that are now basically impossible to fill.
The Y scheme is the only way to go. Nobody will join KA. They will join CX and have the option to go to KA if they want the command earlier.
Disadvantages nobody. Helps CX as it fills KA seats that are now basically impossible to fill.
