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The Demise of Hong Kong Airlines

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

The Demise of Hong Kong Airlines

Old 9th Sep 2012, 05:25
  #1481 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mos Eisley
Posts: 36
Angry Give HKA Management a Break!!!

Gee guys, give the management a break, after all they are taking action after a thorough "fault mode analysis" of their problems. It goes something like this:

Problem: HKA can't make money and fail at every venture attempted, despite Hainan throwing unlimited funds at the company.

Therefore, are HKA's problems because of:

1. Incompetent management at all levels,
2. A total lack of any reasonable business plan, or,
3. Some deity is upset and needs appeasing?

Obviously it is answer number 3 if you have half-a-brain., and that sums it all up nicely!

Sora Bulq is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2012, 11:12
  #1482 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 17
Hi all,

I'm replying to this thread as an actual pilot on the A320 fleet.

I am one of the substandard Southern European pilots. It is true most of us guys have 10000 hours plus, most of those on type, gained within busy European airspace flying into challenging airports. I must admit our RT may not be up to level 6 standard but then again neither is most of the RT I have heard in HK airspace and that includes some of the major HK carriers. My logbook and that of all my collegues was checked and triple checked by CAD, they even wanted proof of cross country hours flown in 1991. So if a few guys with false licences and Parker Pen logbooks managed to get through then please tell me how they did it.

I have been in the company a little over 7 months, so far I have come across great professionals from all over, yes that includes Philipines, Malasia, and the most of the countries of South America. Unfortunately most of you will never have a chance to appreciate the talent and professionalism of most of these guys. The atmosphere on the flight deck and in the office is friendly and professional. I have never once in my time at HKA been asked to come into the office and do any sort of paperwork. Neither has it been implied that brown nosing is the route to a fast track command. As far as I am aware it is based strictly on seniority.

I found our CRM course to be informative, well taught and most of all interesting, one of the few I haven't found myself nodding off in the middle of. I have never seen the track suited TRE. All of our training is done in uniform and in the sim we are allowed to dress casual but smart.

The company is young and expanding exponentially, it is true that the rest of the departments are playing catch up and the CAD were probably right in slowing down our growth, but believe me we are aware of our weaknesses and are working very hard to remedy them.

Just cut us a bit of slack guys and please don't try and portray us as a bunch of semi standard losers who can't find work anywhere else and are rejects of Cathay Pacific because that simply could not be further from the truth.

Regards.
Spanglish is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2012, 11:16
  #1483 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 950
........And then the good fairy waved her magic wand and they all lived happily ever after
The end
hongkongfooey is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2012, 11:55
  #1484 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Sunny Europe
Posts: 55
@Spanglish

Thank you for your post
I was supposed to join HKA, but unfortunately recruiting got frozen right after my interview.

By the way, I went for KA DEFO recruiting program and jumped ship. Didn't like "vibes", lets say...

Still waiting here
Madp1lot is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2012, 12:56
  #1485 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 17
Best of luck Madpilot, I can't comment on the negative experiences of a few disgruntled ex employees but I can say that I have seen none of that and is is not like that now.

I for one have yet to meet the unhappy few but I'm sure I will one day no doubt.

Happy ever after? Does that apply to any airline on this planet?
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 16:54
  #1486 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: home
Posts: 2
Spanglish, whatever you're smoking best stop before your next medical.

So you're denying the several emails sent out from management asking for "volunteers" to work on "projects"? You deny the facts of known FO's calling into the offices to ask senior management if they can "assist" anywhere?

Great CRM courses you say? So why is that entire section under threat of or being shut down pending investigation due the MANY complaints of inappropriate behavior, conduct and content?

What is the actual [flying] experience of the 330 Fleet Mngr? Is he the BEST person for the job in lieu of the many other highly experienced Capts at HKA or is he the best person with the best nationality that suits to do the job? At a reputable airline he'd be still an SO or at best a JFO with is "experience" yet at HKA he's a Fleet Mngr. Nationality is everything..... (Or as the deputy Tng Mngr is, being related to the DFO doesn't hurt either, eh? Little things like experience not required either for that job.....) The term "Singaporean Mafia" comes to mind, but no secret.

Seniority? HKA openly state that there is no seniority system but one based on a camouflaged and secretive "performance based" system that only upper management mainly from a small island nation design and are privy to. How did the 4 (reduced to 2 later) gain their Cmd progression on the 330? They skipped at least 50-60 guys based on any form of "seniority" let alone date of joining. What of the 737 drivers and their "seniority/date of joining" WELL higher than theirs could possibly be!!?? And golly gee..... I wonder who it was telling tales on their fellow pilots, reporting to the former Fleet Mngr and his same national cohorts, doing favours for the fleet managers & working in the office for free? Some pilots get to do one delivery flight in their entire career yet I understand one of these Cat D guys has done no less than 3 with the former Fleet Mngr. Like I said, what gets some guys marked "never to be promoted" at one airline gets them fast tracked to career progression at HKA.

As a 320 pilot you've never done a LGW flight & relieved the crew to find not a single correctly performed fuel check done (as per the FCOM or OM-A) or alternate met received & recorded. Or a short haul flight where the "Training Capt" goes through & records on the CFP the FMGC all the ETA's & Fuel Predictions prior to top of climb then puts it away never to be seen for the rest of the flight.....? Or a senior TRI not familiar with the latest 330 amendments and chastising pilots on outdated procedures?

All this is RAMPANT and more the rule as opposed to the exception.

Standards? So why has the [new] GMT fought tooth and nail with massive opposition by those who deny the bleeding obvious that our standards are so low and therefore the need for 3 monthly PC's and RC's instead of them being conducted bi-annually?

The "all powerful CAD checks" on logbooks!!?? So just how did that HKA pilot get through the system with a fake passport I wonder??? He was only caught through his own stupidity!

"A few disgruntled employees"?? Go talk to the 737 FO's with 4+ years with the company and see if they are "happy" with their treatment, let alone the VAST majority of HKA 330 pilots. If the 320 fleet is better then I'm happy for you - but happier still that I'm away from the rot that went on and still goes on I'm told by colleagues still there.

Those who refuse to look for the truth will never see it. Those who don't know what it is don't know what to look for. And those who rely on this defend their ignorance by denying it all. I suppose the earth is round only because you haven't fallen off it yet.
terpsops is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2012, 18:38
  #1487 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 54
Posts: 28
Algol mark 2

hahahahahahhahahahahah

It seems we have a new Algol, trying to defend why he work at that shithole.


good luck friend

keep dreaming you have a good job


Exxman


The BIG PICTURE.............. I Have It, You Don't.


XOP's............ The Only Way To Operate...........
EXXMAN is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2012, 00:36
  #1488 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 17
Well lets agree to disagree on this one.

Ignorance is bliss as they say.
Spanglish is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2012, 01:28
  #1489 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: dowund
Posts: 90
Just can't understand why those still stay with HKA/E
cpahka is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2012, 10:50
  #1490 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Noo Yoik
Posts: 126
So you're denying the several emails sent out from management asking for "volunteers" to work on "projects"? You deny the facts of known FO's calling into the offices to ask senior management if they can "assist" anywhere?
What exactly is your problem with this?
In my European Flag Carrier they ask for volunteers all the time!
They also make quiet personal approaches to pilots with specific skills in areas they need in-house advice or assistance. Guys are constantly doing projects - they get paid too! I guess the guys in HKA get paid, or see a path to career progression (money isn't everyone's sole motivator). One such volunteer went on to become our CEO!
Is it just that you class this as 'brown-nosing' - 'cos it sounds like some form of begrudgery to me.

Great CRM courses you say? So why is that entire section under threat of or being shut down pending investigation due the MANY complaints of inappropriate behavior, conduct and content?
Evidence please? Or just innuendo?

What is the actual [flying] experience of the 330 Fleet Mngr? Is he the BEST person for the job in lieu of the many other highly experienced Capts at HKA or is he the best person with the best nationality that suits to do the job? At a reputable airline he'd be still an SO or at best a JFO with is "experience" yet at HKA he's a Fleet Mngr. Nationality is everything..... (Or as the deputy Tng Mngr is, being related to the DFO doesn't hurt either, eh? Little things like experience not required either for that job.....) The term "Singaporean Mafia" comes to mind, but no secret.
This is a good one.
Since becoming a SWIRE (Brit) company in 1948, Cathay took on a distinctly Brit flavour. Throughout the 70's and 80's the worldwide pilot population considered it to be ' run by the Brits', and that included Flight Ops. The top men were always - Brits.
Then in 1989 the ANSSETT debacle occurred and hundreds of desperate Aussies were thrown on the world market (debasing it for the rest of us - its the point where our profession started to sink). Many of those Aussies ended up in CX, and brought their mates on board later. They formed a large clique in the company and by the mid 90's had edged the Brits out. It then became an ' Aussie Airline' (God help us) and remains so to this day. That may change soon though since CX are now looking further afield for new pilots I believe. The next clique will probably displace the Aussies in the next 10 years. Cliques exist in every 'expat airline', and even in the flag carriers they have the 'ex-Mil pilot cliques' and the 'Cadet cliques' - (subdivided by year). C'est la vie. Live with it.

Seniority? HKA openly state that there is no seniority system but one based on a camouflaged and secretive "performance based" system that only upper management mainly from a small island nation design and are privy to. How did the 4 (reduced to 2 later) gain their Cmd progression on the 330? They skipped at least 50-60 guys based on any form of "seniority" let alone date of joining. What of the 737 drivers and their "seniority/date of joining" WELL higher than theirs could possibly be!!?? And golly gee..... I wonder who it was telling tales on their fellow pilots, reporting to the former Fleet Mngr and his same national cohorts, doing favours for the fleet managers & working in the office for free? Some pilots get to do one delivery flight in their entire career yet I understand one of these Cat D guys has done no less than 3 with the former Fleet Mngr. Like I said, what gets some guys marked "never to be promoted" at one airline gets them fast tracked to career progression at HKA.
It's a non-unionised airline.
For now.

As a 320 pilot you've never done a LGW flight & relieved the crew to find not a single correctly performed fuel check done (as per the FCOM or OM-A) or alternate met received & recorded. Or a short haul flight where the "Training Capt" goes through & records on the CFP the FMGC all the ETA's & Fuel Predictions prior to top of climb then puts it away never to be seen for the rest of the flight.....? Or a senior TRI not familiar with the latest 330 amendments and chastising pilots on outdated procedures?
More gossip....
Evidence please....

All this is RAMPANT and more the rule as opposed to the exception.
In your head.

Standards? So why has the [new] GMT fought tooth and nail with massive opposition by those who deny the bleeding obvious that our standards are so low and therefore the need for 3 monthly PC's and RC's instead of them being conducted bi-annually?
Hmm...Freudian slip there?
Who's standards are you referring to, you unhappy little mole you.

The "all powerful CAD checks" on logbooks!!?? So just how did that HKA pilot get through the system with a fake passport I wonder??? He was only caught through his own stupidity!
Yeah I heard about this one. I laughed my ass off.
but I guess its the Immigration Tower guys you should call on this one. Checking passports ain't CAD work.

"A few disgruntled employees"?? Go talk to the 737 FO's with 4+ years with the company and see if they are "happy" with their treatment, let alone the VAST majority of HKA 330 pilots. If the 320 fleet is better then I'm happy for you - but happier still that I'm away from the rot that went on and still goes on I'm told by colleagues still there.
No you're not. You said 'OUR'.

Those who refuse to look for the truth will never see it. Those who don't know what it is don't know what to look for. And those who rely on this defend their ignorance by denying it all. I suppose the earth is round only because you haven't fallen off it yet.
No. It's a load of sour grapes and unfounded allegation, from someone who has tripped up in their lie.
Just wait until Jetstar arrive - and you see some competition from a LoCo.
Meccano is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2012, 13:02
  #1491 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Noo Yoik
Posts: 126
Just can't understand why those still stay with HKA/E
I'll take a stab at it for you then, shall I?

Could it possibly be because there are no decent jobs in:

The UK
France
Spain
Germany
Australia
The Philipines
etc

...and because not everyone wants to work in:

The ME
Korea
China (Mainland)
Taiwan
Africa
Afghanistan
India
or for a LoCo
etc

Seems bleedin simple to me.
But then I don't live in a cossetted bubble.
Some of you guys need to get out and see the world a bit. Might stretch your imaginations somewhat.

Last edited by Meccano; 26th Sep 2012 at 13:04.
Meccano is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2012, 13:09
  #1492 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Noo Yoik
Posts: 126
hahahahahahhahahahahah

It seems we have a new Algol, trying to defend why he work at that shithole.


good luck friend

keep dreaming you have a good job


Exxman


The BIG PICTURE.............. I Have It, You Don't.


XOP's............ The Only Way To Operate...........
But - I don't work there! Yet!

I am however planning to - sooner the better.
My buddies love it, and we're planning to form a clique and take over -30 minutes after I arrive.

CXOPs I think you'd call that?
Did I spell it right for you there?

You'll be out. Your English sucks.

Last edited by Meccano; 26th Sep 2012 at 13:14.
Meccano is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2012, 21:32
  #1493 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Sunny Europe
Posts: 55
well... you guys are pros when it comes about arguing and such...
As far as I'm concerned, just know that KA's having a hard time recruiting DEFOs, while HKA's hasn't... make what conclusions you want out of it...
Madp1lot is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2012, 01:15
  #1494 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Poland
Age: 61
Posts: 62
The hard core truth is that the AOC is temporarily suspended by CAD.
If they dont lift their standards then I guess its curtains.??
DUSKY DOG is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2012, 01:52
  #1495 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Noo Yoik
Posts: 126
Utter Bollox.

Hong Kong International Airport - Real Time Flight Information - Passenger Departure

Last edited by Meccano; 27th Sep 2012 at 01:58.
Meccano is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2012, 03:12
  #1496 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: HK
Posts: 497
MECCANO

The new oracle has arrived. Knows everything about everything, but not here yet!!!
iceman50 is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2012, 15:20
  #1497 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Noo Yoik
Posts: 126
Yeah - I do the research.
On PPRuNe.
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Old 28th Sep 2012, 09:01
  #1498 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Asia
Posts: 382
Meccano
Since becoming a SWIRE (Brit) company in 1948, Cathay took on a distinctly Brit flavour. Throughout the 70's and 80's the worldwide pilot population considered it to be ' run by the Brits', and that included Flight Ops. The top men were always - Brits.
Utter rubbish. Your straw poll of what the worldwide population considered does not change the facts.


Then in 1989 the ANSSETT debacle occurred and hundreds of desperate Aussies were thrown on the world market (debasing it for the rest of us - its the point where our profession started to sink). Many of those Aussies ended up in CX, and brought their mates on board later. They formed a large clique in the company and by the mid 90's had edged the Brits out. It then became an ' Aussie Airline' (God help us) and remains so to this day. That may change soon though since CX are now looking further afield for new pilots I believe. The next clique will probably displace the Aussies in the next 10 years. Cliques exist in every 'expat airline', and even in the flag carriers they have the 'ex-Mil pilot cliques' and the 'Cadet cliques' - (subdivided by year). C'est la vie. Live with it.
Utter rubbish again.
Traffic is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2012, 10:27
  #1499 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Poland
Age: 61
Posts: 62
The Brits were the first to produce and certify Jet commercial Aircraft
The Brits were the first to do Aircraft operations at sea
The Brits were the first to certify and use Auto-Land
The Brits were the first to pioneer world wide weather forecasting
The Brits were the first to do in flight refueling
The prime Meridian goes threw the Royal Naval College at Greenwich.
You can all go on by comparing Boeing to Airbus but nothing comes close to Concorde
I think having Brit Management is a safer bet towards professionalism .
DUSKY DOG is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2012, 10:35
  #1500 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Noo Yoik
Posts: 126
Utter rubbish. Your straw poll of what the worldwide population considered does not change the facts.
What 'facts' are you talking about?
It was a Brit owned company, managed by Brits, with loads of ex-Mil/Retired BA Brits flying for them. That's a fact.

Until....

Then in 1989 the ANSSETT debacle occurred and hundreds of desperate Aussies were thrown on the world market (debasing it for the rest of us - its the point where our profession started to sink). Many of those Aussies ended up in CX, and brought their mates on board later. They formed a large clique in the company and by the mid 90's had edged the Brits out. It then became an ' Aussie Airline' (God help us) and remains so to this day.
As I understand it, there were around 1,500 Aussie pilots thrown out of work in that dispute. Or to be more accurate - they comitted hari-kiri en masse.
I never met an Aussie pilot outside Oz before that. Suddenly the buggers were everywhere, and acting like they owned every available job on the market. I remember one particular bunch at another SE Asian airline where myself and my 'clique' worked for a while telling us we should f**k off home and stop taking Australians jobs, haha!

They took over CX/KA pretty much in the aftermath of the APAC mess.

By the way, my home company was unionised and we supported the APAC cause. But we were all gobsmacked when we heard what they did. Lots of valuable lessons learned from that one - like, don't put your own head on a chopping block.

Anyhow, like I said, the rot set in after that for pilot T's&C's, worldwide, because there just wasn't the work for them all. Supply and Demand.
Thanks for that lads.
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