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The Demise of Hong Kong Airlines

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

The Demise of Hong Kong Airlines

Old 5th Aug 2012, 04:57
  #1421 (permalink)  
 
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And HKE is a cargo airline...
Yes thats the plan apparently.
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Old 5th Aug 2012, 07:20
  #1422 (permalink)  
 
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Internal. Heard this today from a friend @ HKA aswell.
I'm sure it will be released shortly.
Still no confirmation here, official or unofficial. And I've asked around.

Also if you go to their website and try to book you'll see all future flights are "sold out"
Yep, checked that, and its correct.
Don't know what that means yet - could simply be a rejigging of the schedule. 7 days a week was crazy from the start. As was LGW IMHO.
Could be a schedule reduction, and/or a new destination, both of which would be welcome.

Regarding the fleet freeze - total units planned by end of 2012 was 23. That includes phasing out of 3 737-800's.
So if 20 is correct it's not such a massive hit after all. Could be accounted for by delay to the remaining A320 deliveries.
Three A330-300's are still due before hitting 20 units.

Last edited by Algol; 5th Aug 2012 at 07:22.
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Old 5th Aug 2012, 10:01
  #1423 (permalink)  
 
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So what about the recruitment drive? Has that all gone sour now as well? Obviously all those who joined recently will be worried about what aeroplanes they will fly if they have been delayed by the CAD....
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Old 5th Aug 2012, 18:28
  #1424 (permalink)  
 
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Regarding the fleet freeze - total units planned by end of 2012 was 23. That includes phasing out of 3 737-800's.
So if 20 is correct it's not such a massive hit after all. Could be accounted for by delay to the remaining A320 deliveries.
I got the impression that it wasn't fleet numbers, but the list of exact registrations listed in the AOC are the only aircraft allowed and that phasing out certain aircraft would not mean the addition of newer ones would be allowed. New aircraft still requires training new crews. The CAD want everything stopped so there is time for the airline and standards to catch up. Allowing a certain number of aircraft when 'older' planes are about to be swapped out for A320s goes against the intent of the CAD's order.
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Old 6th Aug 2012, 02:34
  #1425 (permalink)  
 
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Still no official announcement, but the media are reporting the LGW service is withdrawn, and I've heard unofficial reports the three HCCs are being sent to Hainan.

I got the impression that it wasn't fleet numbers, but the list of exact registrations listed in the AOC are the only aircraft allowed and that phasing out certain aircraft would not mean the addition of newer ones would be allowed. New aircraft still requires training new crews.
That makes no sense to me. If the 3 A330 HCCs are going, and 3 more A330-300's are coming (delivery already scheduled) are you saying the CAD would block the same type? Well, it's HKG, and anything crazy can happen.

If 20 units is the agreed number, there will be additional aircraft required to reach that number, especially if the HCCs go.

The LGW service was a daily heavy crew op (two crews), so do the math. 4X 7 = 28 pilots, plus reserves/rest coverage, probably at least 36 guys.
If the fleet number hits 20 they may keep their jobs, though on other type.

If not, there may be redundancies. Or transfers to other airlines in the group. Anyone in the holding pool should start reviewing their situation I guess.

On the whole this is a sad outcome, not only for HKA, but for the whole industry. The LoCo model is driving this industry down to the lowest common denominator. We need to see a working alternative model.
I just wish somebody would do it right and give it a chance to work. I thought Eos in the US was a great effort - but the GFC and $140 oil killed that off too.

Last edited by Algol; 6th Aug 2012 at 03:04.
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Old 6th Aug 2012, 04:20
  #1426 (permalink)  
 
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Get your money back pronto!

Hong Kong Airlines refund alert. Get your money back pronto | Plane Talking
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Old 6th Aug 2012, 07:54
  #1427 (permalink)  
 
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LGW Flights

Hong Kong Airlines axes HK-London 'all business-class' flights? - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller
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Old 6th Aug 2012, 11:03
  #1428 (permalink)  
 
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Hong Kong Airlines refund alert. Get your money back pronto
Disgraceful scare-mongering.
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Old 6th Aug 2012, 11:05
  #1429 (permalink)  
 
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There you go Algol. Seems you're more than a little out of touch with your "employer". London is gone, the stupid idea it was.
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Old 6th Aug 2012, 14:09
  #1430 (permalink)  
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What did they expect, honestly?
 
Old 6th Aug 2012, 14:28
  #1431 (permalink)  
 
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Scaremongering?

Pardon me. Did I miss something?

HKA is owes 10's of millions of dollars, hasn't ever been profitable, just deeper in debt, the government has restricted the "growth" if we can call it that, and the flagship route has been cancelled. Additionally, Aircraft are not being cleaned, a move to outer bays has been initiated to attempt to save money, and flights within Asia are routinely cancelled at the last minute.

A picture of a healthy airline it is not. Hanian may or may not decide to keep pouring cash into HKA. Neither myself or anyone else knows that (including you).


But if I had to pay for a flight, why would I risk paying HKA? Who knows when the plug will get pulled. ALGOL didn't even hear about the LGW till 4 days after word spread to others in HK.

HKA is not going to tell staff or consumers till its too late to save themselves.
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Old 6th Aug 2012, 15:01
  #1432 (permalink)  
 
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HKA is owes 10's of millions of dollars, hasn't ever been profitable, just deeper in debt,...
To who?
HAECO?

So you say. That is a matter of dispute I believe.

And which airline ever made a profit in the first two and a half years of operations? Only 1 that I can think of. A mould breaker in the business, I'm sure you'd agree, and know to whom I refer.

...the government has restricted the "growth" if we can call it that,...
I'd call 0 widebodies to 20 units in 30 months spectacular growth! What would you call it?

....and the flagship route has been cancelled.
Back to the knitting then.
Additionally, Aircraft are not being cleaned, a move to outer bays has been initiated to attempt to save money, and flights within Asia are routinely cancelled at the last minute.
Hurricanes, ATC delays, HKIA protectionism, and state dictated anti-business practices. Its a wonder anything ever gets off the ground in HKG except the Cartel airlines as far as I can see. This BS would be ILLEGAL in a liberalised Western country.

A picture of a healthy airline it is not. Hanian may or may not decide to keep pouring cash into HKA. Neither myself or anyone else knows that (including you).
Its a picture of a company that is expanding rapidly, and in which the staff and management are struggling manfully to keep pace. Why not ask - who dictates that pace? Focus your criticism there if you will.

But if I had to pay for a flight, why would I risk paying HKA? Who knows when the plug will get pulled. ALGOL didn't even hear about the LGW till 4 days after word spread to others in HK.
Mate, I saw the same thing happen with a certain small LoCo carrier in Europe. Its now one of the top three airlines in Europe. The politicians got off its back and broke a Cartel, just like the one in HKG. The rest is history. You should keep praying the same doesn't happen here, or you might not like the consequences for your own (Government protected) job.

Last edited by Algol; 6th Aug 2012 at 15:08.
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Old 6th Aug 2012, 15:25
  #1433 (permalink)  
 
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And which airline ever made a profit in the first two and a half years of operations? Only 1 that I can think of. A mould breaker in the business, I'm sure you'd agree, and know to whom I refer.
How does this aply to HKA it allready exists 7 yrs from when it started as CR Airways.. If you mean widebody just maybe I could agree with you..But otherwise it is a complete BS remark

Its a picture of a company that is expanding rapidly, and in which the staff and management are struggling manfully to keep pace. Why not ask - who dictates that pace? Focus your criticism there if you will.
Once again have to disagree with you. Just look at Air Asia they are growing for more quicker than HKA...Not sure how to bring it to you but they have been operating with 4/5? acft for years so counting the extra A330's it is not expanding that fast as management wants you to think

Other than that best of luck coming weeks..I have to agree starting to look less than good for HKA unfortunately..

Last edited by RILAX; 6th Aug 2012 at 15:27.
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Old 6th Aug 2012, 16:28
  #1434 (permalink)  
 
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Westjet, for one.
But I'm sure you're referring to that failure of humanity called RyanAir in Europe that I wouldn't be caught flying on as a passenger let alone as crew.

HKA has been around a long time.. I worked there 7 years ago, and it was CR Air long before that.. Its only success has ever been surpassing its previous failures and debt.

The amount owed to Haeco isn't in dispute. It wasn't paid.

Spectacular growth? I was there from 0 B737 to 11 I believe before the Singaswine f*cked it all up.. Its easy to build a fleet with no need for profit and unlimited funds to procure aircraft isn't it.


As for the rest.. back to the knitting indeed. If you can't recognize the light at the end of the tunnel is a opposite bound train, you deserve to get hit.
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Old 6th Aug 2012, 17:18
  #1435 (permalink)  
 
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How does this aply to HKA it allready exists 7 yrs from when it started as CR Airways.. If you mean widebody just maybe I could agree with you..But otherwise it is a complete BS remark
Nope. The connection to your HKA is in name only. HKA was a completely different animal back then, managed by different people, under different ownership, under-resourced, and going nowhere.
Comparing HKA post 2009 to that HKA is comparing chalk and cheese. Its blindingly obvious there was a massive sea change 3 years ago.

Once again have to disagree with you. Just look at Air Asia they are growing for more quicker than HKA...Not sure how to bring it to you but they have been operating with 4/5? acft for years so counting the extra A330's it is not expanding that fast as management wants you to think
Did you misstype? Did you mean '45' aircraft? Is that all? After 11 years?
What do you think is the difference between HKA's [re]launch and AA's?
Let me tell you what I know about Air Asia.
That airline was (reputedly - if you believe Tony) set up on a shoestring budget, and the business plan written on the back of a hotel bar bill. But it was given nearly carte-blanche from day 1 thanks to the political pull of some of its backers (look up AK for starters) who made sure it got all the breaks it needed, contrary to the interests of the incumbent National Carrier (which it is slowly killing). Just goes to show how a liberal aviation market can encourage growth and innovation, while protectionism and Cartels strangle the rest at birth.
Air Asia has been around for 11 years. HKA only woke up 30 months ago. Have some patience!

Westjet, for one.
Well it wasn't the one I was thinking of, and I rather doubt your assertion (gimme a link). I did however note (on Wikipedia) that Westjet was grounded in its first year of operation by Transport Canada. It went on to be the second largest carrier in Canada. Nice metaphor there, ta.

Nah, I was referring to SouthWest Airlines!
But although I've heard that story oft repeated (profitable from launch) it turns out (again according to Wiki) that not only did SW not make a profit for years - but it too was baulked for those early years by a pair of legacy carriers who didn't like the upstart and tried to strangle it. SW is now the most reliably profitable airline in the US, and the legacy carriers who tried to do it in are gone, or merged.
Seems to be a trend here....

But I'm sure you're referring to that failure of humanity called RyanAir in Europe that I wouldn't be caught flying on as a passenger let alone as crew.
Hehe....I wouldn't even mention its name. But you did.
Like it or not - its yet another upstart that ate the world.

...this is definitely getting to be more than just a trend now....

HKA has been around a long time.. I worked there 7 years ago, and it was CR Air long before that.. Its only success has ever been surpassing its previous failures and debt.
A, a disgruntled ex-employee.
Relax - just kiddin'

The amount owed to Haeco isn't in dispute. It wasn't paid.
It certainly IS in dispute.
Unless you work for HAECO now....

Spectacular growth? I was there from 0 B737 to 11 I believe before the Singaswine f*cked it all up.. Its easy to build a fleet with no need for profit and unlimited funds to procure aircraft isn't it.
Did they have the same backers in 2005?

As for the rest.. back to the knitting indeed. If you can't recognize the light at the end of the tunnel is a opposite bound train, you deserve to get hit.
I'm an avid reader of Ernie Gann.
One of my favourite quotes; "Älways keep an out in your back pocket."

Last edited by Algol; 6th Aug 2012 at 17:44.
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Old 6th Aug 2012, 17:34
  #1436 (permalink)  
 
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I believe WestJet has had 29 consecutive quarters of profit...

WestJet was founded in 1996 by Clive Beddoe and a team of partners

http://www.westjet.com/pdf/investorM...ckgrounder.pdf

http://www.westjet.com/pdf/investorMedia/factSheet.pdf
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Old 6th Aug 2012, 17:40
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Very good.
But its been in existence for 68 quarters.
The point was about the history of profitability in 2.5 year old airline projects (first 10 quarters).

Last edited by Algol; 6th Aug 2012 at 17:41.
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Old 6th Aug 2012, 17:50
  #1438 (permalink)  
 
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Well with your point of view that changing management will change the airline than I would say CX/KA would be an 12 month airline as well since they had a change of topmanagement last year..

Problem with HKA is basically they replace the top management everytime but somehow these people are less then competent since they keep failing...This has nothing to do with the people on the workfloor since you have cabin crew cleaning toilets etc etc it seems to me the staff is giving their full 120%

I would be really interesting what actions of management would make you say they now have an idea of what they are/should be doing..To me as a complete outsider it looks like they are running around like a chicken without a head...(or a snake,kangaroo or whichever animal you want to put instead of a chicken)
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Old 6th Aug 2012, 18:05
  #1439 (permalink)  
 
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Well with your point of view that changing management will change the airline than I would say CX/KA would be an 12 month airline as well since they had a change of topmanagement last year..

On 27 June 2006, Hainan Airlines purchased a 45 percent holdings of the airline .....CR Airways Limited officially changed its name to Hong Kong Airlines.....The airline made the biggest aircraft order in its young history on 21 June 2007, by ordering 51 narrow- and wide-body aircraft from European plane maker, Airbus, at an estimated value of US$5.6 billion. The airline's IATA code was changed from N8 to HX on 27 May 2007.


That's where I think the 'sea-change' happened. Nothing to do with Middle Management, 5.6Bn USD is a LOT of money, in anyones language. NASA just put a lander on Mars for half that.

Problem with HKA is basically they replace the top management everytime but somehow these people are less then competent since they keep failing...This has nothing to do with the people on the workfloor since you have cabin crew cleaning toilets etc etc it seems to me the staff is giving their full 120%
The frontline people always save managements ass. Its universal.
I would be really interesting what actions of management would make you say they now have an idea of what they are/should be doing..To me as a complete outsider it looks like they are running around like a chicken without a head...(or a snake,kangaroo or whichever animal you want to put instead of a chicken)
The jury is still out. All I will say is I've worked in companies where Management were interminably at war with their pilots, and this is definitely not the case at HKA.
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Old 6th Aug 2012, 22:13
  #1440 (permalink)  
 
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Who cares.. guys and girls there all got 330 ratings and fat pay checks...if the place is in trouble theyre all in high demand with other 330 carriers...great stepping stone and the more highly qualified bods will be sucked up elsewhere with shiny new 330 time.Wish I'd got in but was too late.

Losers there if the doom and gloom is true are the FOs, skippers must be rubbing hands with glee at the numerous jobs out there.

Been in the region for a long time, seems to be a control measure by CAD...thats all.they will still expand.
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