AFTL Question?
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AFTL Question?
Is there any protection in the AFTL's against short notice roster changes when away from Home Base? I see home based O-days, NB's, and all Reserve periods are protected by a minimum 12 hours - from notification of, to newly assigned (or rescheduled) duty. I don't see anything for away O, NB, EXB or extended Rest Periods. Does that mean I'm on a short notice reserve-like tether? What if I'm drinking?
Any insight much appreciated!
Any insight much appreciated!
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Let's say you land somewhere at 0630 and your roster shows about 28 hours rest before your next sign-on at about 1100.
You may do whatever you like in that intervening period - as long as it is legal and unlikely to bring the company into disrepute. Go bungy jumping, go to the library, go get some cookies from a cafe, hire a car (or an aircraft) and go for a big day out somewhere, or drink as much as you like as long as you meet the requiremements of the HKG CAD AND the requirements of whichever country you are in.
Those 28 hours are yours - there is no need whatsoever to be on call or to answer any message lights in your room. With respect to the AFTLs, you should get some rest at some stage so that you are fit for your next duty, but how you do that is up to you.
If, and only if, the company rep meets you on the aircraft on arrival and says: "Sorry Ol' Chap, we need you to PX (in two hours) to the next door country and then operate XXX service back to HKG tomorrow" then you are fat out of luck as long as what he is proposing is legal in all respects - esp. with the amount of rest being at least as long as preceding duty period.
Also, should you be "disturbed" in your hotel room while you are having rest they should give you another 10 hours before your duty. Any less than that and you are doing them a favour.
Other scenarious also considered....
You may do whatever you like in that intervening period - as long as it is legal and unlikely to bring the company into disrepute. Go bungy jumping, go to the library, go get some cookies from a cafe, hire a car (or an aircraft) and go for a big day out somewhere, or drink as much as you like as long as you meet the requiremements of the HKG CAD AND the requirements of whichever country you are in.
Those 28 hours are yours - there is no need whatsoever to be on call or to answer any message lights in your room. With respect to the AFTLs, you should get some rest at some stage so that you are fit for your next duty, but how you do that is up to you.
If, and only if, the company rep meets you on the aircraft on arrival and says: "Sorry Ol' Chap, we need you to PX (in two hours) to the next door country and then operate XXX service back to HKG tomorrow" then you are fat out of luck as long as what he is proposing is legal in all respects - esp. with the amount of rest being at least as long as preceding duty period.
Also, should you be "disturbed" in your hotel room while you are having rest they should give you another 10 hours before your duty. Any less than that and you are doing them a favour.
Other scenarious also considered....
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Absolutely not. Once your schedule is published you have no responsibility to the company except letting them know where they can reach you. But you don't need to answer the phone. If you answer the phone, then they can change your schedule as long as it is legal. If you don't answer, then they move on to the next option, which is probably the origianl that was scheduled for the flight but will now be going into overtime....
When you are in the hotel YOU HAVE NO RESPONSIBILITY TO ANSWER THE PHONE!! You can drink as much as you want as long as it is legal and safe in reference to your scheduled departure time. If they reach you and would like you to operate earlier, then it is a request in their part which is subject to you not having drunk in the last 12 hours and also you accepting that you are well rested.
If they delay you on your long-haul overnight, make sure you do your math. If the delay is 4 hours or greater, then it will start eating into your FDP. Less than four hours, then your FDP remains the same. You need to do the math if they delay you more than 4 hours because it might be the determining factor on wether you will get a fourth guy, or wether you will time out and get delayed another 10.
In all cases, it is very important that the flight is not scheduled to operate with discretion. THAT IS ILLEGAL AND YOU ARE PUTTING YOUR LISCENSE IN JEOPARDY. They can't schedule you to use discretion. If they ask you, then please ask them if it is legal to do what they want you to do. If they say it is legal, then it probably is. If you still believe it is not, then get more heads to look at the situation. Ask to speak to the duty manager and even call the fleet office. Whatever, CYA is the name of the game.
When you are in the hotel YOU HAVE NO RESPONSIBILITY TO ANSWER THE PHONE!! You can drink as much as you want as long as it is legal and safe in reference to your scheduled departure time. If they reach you and would like you to operate earlier, then it is a request in their part which is subject to you not having drunk in the last 12 hours and also you accepting that you are well rested.
If they delay you on your long-haul overnight, make sure you do your math. If the delay is 4 hours or greater, then it will start eating into your FDP. Less than four hours, then your FDP remains the same. You need to do the math if they delay you more than 4 hours because it might be the determining factor on wether you will get a fourth guy, or wether you will time out and get delayed another 10.
In all cases, it is very important that the flight is not scheduled to operate with discretion. THAT IS ILLEGAL AND YOU ARE PUTTING YOUR LISCENSE IN JEOPARDY. They can't schedule you to use discretion. If they ask you, then please ask them if it is legal to do what they want you to do. If they say it is legal, then it probably is. If you still believe it is not, then get more heads to look at the situation. Ask to speak to the duty manager and even call the fleet office. Whatever, CYA is the name of the game.
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"If they reach you and would like you to operate earlier, then it is a request in their part.."
Jed, Squawk Thank You.
How is it though, when I return to my room that first night there is a sheet placed under my door telling me I'm now operating a flight 20 hours earlier (tomorrow). Do I just throw the sheet away and not show up? The last time this happened I didn't acknowledge anything. When I showed up at the desk the next morning for the new flight I was the only other guy there on the 2-man crew.
There are a lot of details in what you both say, about contactability (by phone or otherwise) and responsibility to the company/roster changes when on a duty cycle, however, I cannot find this written anywhere.
There seems to be a gigantic vacuum in the books on this subject - leaving a new guy wondering if he'll screw the company, his buds, or himself by accepting/not accepting these roster changes.
Jed, Squawk Thank You.
How is it though, when I return to my room that first night there is a sheet placed under my door telling me I'm now operating a flight 20 hours earlier (tomorrow). Do I just throw the sheet away and not show up? The last time this happened I didn't acknowledge anything. When I showed up at the desk the next morning for the new flight I was the only other guy there on the 2-man crew.
There are a lot of details in what you both say, about contactability (by phone or otherwise) and responsibility to the company/roster changes when on a duty cycle, however, I cannot find this written anywhere.
There seems to be a gigantic vacuum in the books on this subject - leaving a new guy wondering if he'll screw the company, his buds, or himself by accepting/not accepting these roster changes.
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Despite what appears at first glance to be a giant empty hole in the books, they do end up being very precise in (nearly) all the right places.
What they do not tell you is when you don't have to be contactable: by definition, any time outside that when you have to be contactable, you are free.
A friend once described this concept to me as the difference between the Navy and the Air Force. He said that in the Navy, the regulations tell you what you cannot do, therefore everything else is ok. In the Air Force, the regs tell you what you can do, hence everything that is not specifically allowed is verbotten.
In the case of the paper under the door, who's to say the cleaning lady didn't throw it into the bin? Yes, you can quite legally (and morally) ignore any bits of paper or messages (even ACARS, although that gets harder...).
Vol 1, 2-3-6 para 7.24: "Reserve Duty A period during which the company places constraints on a crew member who would otherwise be off Duty".
Apart from this paragraph and the definitions of "Duty", "Duty Cycle" and "Duty Period" (where it would not be unreasonable to assume that you can be contactable!) you do not have to answer the phone, or open the door to a knock, or look at Crew Direct or Groupwise.
In short: a roster change can only be a two-way communication (phone or crewdirect acknowledgment) between you and crew control. Pretty much nothing else will do.
What they do not tell you is when you don't have to be contactable: by definition, any time outside that when you have to be contactable, you are free.
A friend once described this concept to me as the difference between the Navy and the Air Force. He said that in the Navy, the regulations tell you what you cannot do, therefore everything else is ok. In the Air Force, the regs tell you what you can do, hence everything that is not specifically allowed is verbotten.
In the case of the paper under the door, who's to say the cleaning lady didn't throw it into the bin? Yes, you can quite legally (and morally) ignore any bits of paper or messages (even ACARS, although that gets harder...).
Vol 1, 2-3-6 para 7.24: "Reserve Duty A period during which the company places constraints on a crew member who would otherwise be off Duty".
Apart from this paragraph and the definitions of "Duty", "Duty Cycle" and "Duty Period" (where it would not be unreasonable to assume that you can be contactable!) you do not have to answer the phone, or open the door to a knock, or look at Crew Direct or Groupwise.
In short: a roster change can only be a two-way communication (phone or crewdirect acknowledgment) between you and crew control. Pretty much nothing else will do.
If you answer the phone in your room from CC and they want you to operate back early: 1/ Ask if it's Legal, get them to explain why it's legal.
2/ If you are rested and it is Legal then you will have a hard time saying NO.
SO THE MORAL OF THE STORY, DON'T ANSWER YOUR PHONE.
Pieces of paper under the door or messages on the phone? What message?
2/ If you are rested and it is Legal then you will have a hard time saying NO.
SO THE MORAL OF THE STORY, DON'T ANSWER YOUR PHONE.
Pieces of paper under the door or messages on the phone? What message?
If you answer the phone in your room from CC and they want you to operate back early: 1/ Ask if it's Legal, get them to explain why it's legal.
2/ If you are rested and it is Legal then you will have a hard time saying NO.
SO THE MORAL OF THE STORY, DON'T ANSWER YOUR PHONE.
Pieces of paper under the door or messages on the phone? What message?
2/ If you are rested and it is Legal then you will have a hard time saying NO.
SO THE MORAL OF THE STORY, DON'T ANSWER YOUR PHONE.
Pieces of paper under the door or messages on the phone? What message?
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How is it though, when I return to my room that first night there is a sheet placed under my door telling me I'm now operating a flight 20 hours earlier (tomorrow). Do I just throw the sheet away and not show up? The last time this happened I didn't acknowledge anything. When I showed up at the desk the next morning for the new flight I was the only other guy there on the 2-man crew.
The reason that it is a bit tricky is that the current system has run on good will for a very long time. Now that most pilot's good will has run out, people are questioning "why do I do this...this isn't my responsibility". So, we are gonna go through a transition of sorts until in a few month's time they will come up with a more direct system that spells out responsibilities a lot clearer.
So as far as guidance, you would be correct in not showing up to that notification. But, on the flipside, you will get a phone call at your wake-up time. Early notifications are a tough issue because a lot of times it equates to getting home earlier, which is hard to be against.
As far as getting sheets, who cares. The important thing is that you know when you have to repport. DO NOT LET THEM TELL YOU THAT THEY WILL CALL YOU WHEN THEN NEED YOU. If they tell you this, you tell them that you are not on reserve and that you will not be contactable. Unless they change your roster, they can't put you on reserve at a whim's notice. Make sure they give you a sign on time if your flight is delayed. period.
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Cool as a moosp
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Good answers. I have just made similar comments to B-KPA on his 777-JFK thread. Looks like we on the 747 need to inform the 777 guys what goes on with CC on these UULH sectors.
What 777 JFK thread by B-KPA?
seems our moderator has deleted it?
Why?
Something we said a bit close to the bone?
B-KPA deleted the thread - felt that it had been hijacked
seems our moderator has deleted it?
Why?
Something we said a bit close to the bone?
B-KPA deleted the thread - felt that it had been hijacked
CC helped a tremendous amount with the KA outcome.
No doubt about it.
There have a lot of guys leaving CX in the last 12 months and a lot that didn't want to join.
Also I KNOW that up to 60 crew a month "volunteer" to work their G day to help the company ( and themselves more, in the short term
)
THE TIME IS NOW,,,,,,,,
No doubt about it.
There have a lot of guys leaving CX in the last 12 months and a lot that didn't want to join.
Also I KNOW that up to 60 crew a month "volunteer" to work their G day to help the company ( and themselves more, in the short term
)THE TIME IS NOW,,,,,,,,
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Not Icing
It was more than just icing, they hated it. I didn't like doing CC either as we all want to do the best job we can, but there comes a point where you just can't have the piss taken anymore.
Working G days etc just negates some of the pressure put on by lack of crew.
You don't have to do much really, just play by the book. When they phone, and if they catch you, then say as little as possible, "sorry cannot work that day" is all they need to know. When you get into long explanations that is when you start to dig a hole.
Working G days etc just negates some of the pressure put on by lack of crew.
You don't have to do much really, just play by the book. When they phone, and if they catch you, then say as little as possible, "sorry cannot work that day" is all they need to know. When you get into long explanations that is when you start to dig a hole.
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I'm long gone from Honkers, but I agree... don't answer your 'phone! I received 'max intimidation' and an interview for not answering my 'phone outside of my standby duty. CC even sent text messages to my mobile for roster changes... which, coincidentaly, my 'phone provider (Sunday) didn't deliver until the next day! My Fax was always 'on-line' and able to recieve, yet KA wouldn't acknowledge the lack of information from my Fax Log... they never sent it! Yet I still received intimidation of the highest order... is there little wonder that I packed my bags and departed for good? With 20/20 hindsight ,and a better understanding of FTLs, I might have been in a better legal situation, but what with my own mental deterioration with the constant threat of 'the company might well bring forward your own departure date'... I decided that enough was enough and escaped a couple of days prior to my planned departure date... with a backpack full of cash from my bank account! It wasn't the best decision that I've ever made, but my escape from KA was all encompassing. I'm not proud of what I did, but the lack of support within the management structure for their blatant disregard (or their own $hit interpretation) of FTLs pushed me over the edge. The DPA were very supportive during those dark and final days, but when considering that I gave my very best to support the Classic freighter operation at that time, I cannot find the words that adequately describe the $hit that was being smeared in my direction.
There were several engineering dificiencies that I can recall... an under-reading oil quantity gauge for several weeks! OK... right-on yeah! The aircraft concearned ran out of oil en-route to DXB and we shut-down the engine!
On another occasion... low indicated engine oil pressure... first reported by my good self... an indication problem! Several sectors later... I'm airborne for TPE and, after having reported the problem previously, the oil pressure light came on at TOD into TPE! The G/Es adjust the low pressure setting. The next day... I'm going to TPE (or it might be someplace else, I can't remember) and I'm advised to 'GO' by COMPANY... after the G/Es (under my supervision) observe a 'paralax' GO situation of an Oil Pressure that is obviously incorrect by my standards... we shut down the engine after a 'huge bang' that was heard by many people in HKG City! The very next day 'Corporate Communications' tell the newspapers that it was a 'routine' engine surge! Fact of the matter was, that the engine was '******' and that we dumped fuel to return back into HKG. It took another four or five hours for the engineers to confirm that the engine was indeed 'knackered'! So, the value of my engineering expertise to KA was in fact... 'diddly squat'! I do have many other diary recollections (personal records) of engineering 'wrongdoings' that were wrongfully attributed to what were my so-called 'effective disorders' of my personal recollections of my time with KA. My 'recollections' could be adequately explained via the 'Cockpit Data Recorders' at that time... but who gives a $hit? I voted with my feet, but I will challenge 'anyone' to deny any of the facts that I hold in my possesion.
I cannot hold anyone to account within the current management structure, but I can uphold many of the 'old school guys' wrongdoings for the way in which I was persecuted... 'caned' for being honest! You all know who you are!
Well done DPA, but you're up against a management team who are in denial... they know nothing about what they have done to those who honestly tried to make a diference!
There were several engineering dificiencies that I can recall... an under-reading oil quantity gauge for several weeks! OK... right-on yeah! The aircraft concearned ran out of oil en-route to DXB and we shut-down the engine!
On another occasion... low indicated engine oil pressure... first reported by my good self... an indication problem! Several sectors later... I'm airborne for TPE and, after having reported the problem previously, the oil pressure light came on at TOD into TPE! The G/Es adjust the low pressure setting. The next day... I'm going to TPE (or it might be someplace else, I can't remember) and I'm advised to 'GO' by COMPANY... after the G/Es (under my supervision) observe a 'paralax' GO situation of an Oil Pressure that is obviously incorrect by my standards... we shut down the engine after a 'huge bang' that was heard by many people in HKG City! The very next day 'Corporate Communications' tell the newspapers that it was a 'routine' engine surge! Fact of the matter was, that the engine was '******' and that we dumped fuel to return back into HKG. It took another four or five hours for the engineers to confirm that the engine was indeed 'knackered'! So, the value of my engineering expertise to KA was in fact... 'diddly squat'! I do have many other diary recollections (personal records) of engineering 'wrongdoings' that were wrongfully attributed to what were my so-called 'effective disorders' of my personal recollections of my time with KA. My 'recollections' could be adequately explained via the 'Cockpit Data Recorders' at that time... but who gives a $hit? I voted with my feet, but I will challenge 'anyone' to deny any of the facts that I hold in my possesion.
I cannot hold anyone to account within the current management structure, but I can uphold many of the 'old school guys' wrongdoings for the way in which I was persecuted... 'caned' for being honest! You all know who you are!
Well done DPA, but you're up against a management team who are in denial... they know nothing about what they have done to those who honestly tried to make a diference!
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Would love the LHR security to meet Chopper
After Sign_on
It used to be once you departed hong kong on a trip.. they own you.Now it is AT SIGN ON...in other words when you turn up for work they can send you anywhere and bring you home when it suits them.
I have flown many times with f/o's on a 4-day(read that as a fly every day)trip to north america who had originally signed on for a 3 hour taipei turnaround.
Once at an outport you are required to be contactable, as you obviously are on Reserve and 'A' days..in fact if you're based YOU have to call THEM the day before!!
They will use any and all means to contact and use you once out of hong kong..and ..if you have a little trouble swallowing this just ask any based or freighter crews how stable their rosters are.
If you're on a 'G' day or outside your standby period or 'A' day then why are you touching the phone at all??
I have flown many times with f/o's on a 4-day(read that as a fly every day)trip to north america who had originally signed on for a 3 hour taipei turnaround.
Once at an outport you are required to be contactable, as you obviously are on Reserve and 'A' days..in fact if you're based YOU have to call THEM the day before!!
They will use any and all means to contact and use you once out of hong kong..and ..if you have a little trouble swallowing this just ask any based or freighter crews how stable their rosters are.
If you're on a 'G' day or outside your standby period or 'A' day then why are you touching the phone at all??