CX B-Scale Check and Trainers
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I have very real fears regarding the lack of information and clarity about many things. THE FIRST thing the AOA should be doing is playing watchdog. There are a lot of claims going around that are not being verified - and the AOA should be doing that for us.
Things like seniority, dismissals, bypass, DEFO holding SO's back, tax issues, training success / failure etc etc. These things should not be secrets. Transparency from management is required. I constantly hear people go on about our contract being violated - If this is true it has to stop. Once we are able to enforce our contract at least we will know where we stand. I flew with an FO recently who assumed he will be on COS 08 from Jan 01. He did not even realize the implications. If guys are that ignorant then it leaves the door open for the company to arbitrarily change things as they wish. If everybody rolls over like that it is a matter of time before we have Age 65 in HKG and bypass pay and seniority all deleted from our contracts.....
I say start at the beginning ie: We need to be able to defend what we have before we even try and fight for something more.
Things like seniority, dismissals, bypass, DEFO holding SO's back, tax issues, training success / failure etc etc. These things should not be secrets. Transparency from management is required. I constantly hear people go on about our contract being violated - If this is true it has to stop. Once we are able to enforce our contract at least we will know where we stand. I flew with an FO recently who assumed he will be on COS 08 from Jan 01. He did not even realize the implications. If guys are that ignorant then it leaves the door open for the company to arbitrarily change things as they wish. If everybody rolls over like that it is a matter of time before we have Age 65 in HKG and bypass pay and seniority all deleted from our contracts.....
I say start at the beginning ie: We need to be able to defend what we have before we even try and fight for something more.
CXtreme: so where do you stand then? I need to know so I can make a judgement call on the value of your opinion.
Are you one of the guys/girls that look after themselves?
Are you one of the guys/girls that look after themselves?
Join Date: Mar 2006
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I joined the union a month after I joined the company ,paid my 5% when it was asked for.....
Now, I look after myself, that's why I have an interview in Germany later this month.
Now, I look after myself, that's why I have an interview in Germany later this month.
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Nothing much else to say apart from you have to be pretty selfish to go into training and help these mismanagers out of a bind that THEY got the airline into. Penny pinching is already costing a huge amount in Gday payments and overtime. Keep your phone in your pants. They are running on goodwill. Soon that will run out even moreso.
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Check and Trainers
Numero Crunchero,
In response to a previous post of yours that appears to have been removed, I would just like to comment. You say "Why blame checker and trainers....why not blame me and every other FO that upgraded to captain, every SO that upgraded to FO, every DEFO for taking a job, every B scaler for joining, every A scaler for allowing B scales to be introduced without action etc etc"
Generally I agree with most of your comments on this forum. However, with regards to this post where you call for a stop in blaming individual groups, such as the B-scale Check & Training volunteers, for our current problems; I could not disagree more.
Firstly, to suggest that all groups within the worldwide pilot body should be held equally responsible in trying to solve our internal problems has previously been proven to be a totally flawed concept. I don't understand how we can still expect our problems to be solved by the DEFO's and DESO's that have nothing to do with our situation? These individuals should not be called upon to take a stand on our behalf when we don't even have the balls to fight our own fight.
Secondly, to suggest that SO's and FO's are as much to blame by taking promotions as these guys are for taking the C & T positions is wrong as well. Why do pilots generally join an airline such as Cx? Is it not because of career aspirations to eventually achieve a command through a normal and excepted seniority based promotion system? This is normal career progression. On the other hand, taking a C & T position, is completely different. It is not based on a seniority system; it is not equally available to all; and most importantly, it is completely voluntary. It is a personal choice to help the company out in exactly the same way that people choose to (or not) answer their phones, work on G-days, or fly the freighter. Definitely not helpful to our cause in the current environment.
The simple truth is that if people stopped taking these Training positions, it would probably put the ball back in our court. It would do more for our cause then asking individuals to not answer their phones. However, let's do everything we can. Don't voluntarily answer your phone when not required to do so; don't voluntarily work on G-days; and don't voluntarily help with the company expansion in Check & Training. The company is desperate... they need us for these training positions in the same way they need us on G-days.
It is our responsibility to stand firm and set the bar as high as possible in defense of future attacks on our COS. We should do this by not helping out in any way shape or form. If the company calls you with a request to work on a G-day; ask them how much it would cost to cancel the flight... and set you price accordingly. If the company calls to request your services in the Training department; ask them how much they are paying the extendees... and set you price accordingly. Better yet, don't answer any of their calls/requests. Make them negotiate with the AOA. This would benefit everyone in the long run by us setting the bar at the highest possible level. Don't take the job at the lowest common denominator. They desperately need us. Therefore, we should not volunteer for any more Training positions until they are willing to negotiate a better package for all.
Further, is the C&T position not considered a management position as well? Who is imposing these inferior Conditions Of Service on us? Is it not the management? How can we join them in their cause, while at the same time desperately trying to protect our position? By indirectly putting pressure on the company, we can empower the AOA negotiators. Until such time, volunteering our services to the company will only serve to further degrade our position.
The one thing that I do agree on is that we should stand united, and move forward together. So let's unite in one common direction. Their has to be a plan. Currently there appears to be no guidance from the AOA what so ever. However, there is an overwhelming call from the membership to "not" help the company out. Let's do this together... everyone.
It is not too late to get improvements. It has been said before... but they are surviving only on our goodwill.
In response to a previous post of yours that appears to have been removed, I would just like to comment. You say "Why blame checker and trainers....why not blame me and every other FO that upgraded to captain, every SO that upgraded to FO, every DEFO for taking a job, every B scaler for joining, every A scaler for allowing B scales to be introduced without action etc etc"
Generally I agree with most of your comments on this forum. However, with regards to this post where you call for a stop in blaming individual groups, such as the B-scale Check & Training volunteers, for our current problems; I could not disagree more.
Firstly, to suggest that all groups within the worldwide pilot body should be held equally responsible in trying to solve our internal problems has previously been proven to be a totally flawed concept. I don't understand how we can still expect our problems to be solved by the DEFO's and DESO's that have nothing to do with our situation? These individuals should not be called upon to take a stand on our behalf when we don't even have the balls to fight our own fight.
Secondly, to suggest that SO's and FO's are as much to blame by taking promotions as these guys are for taking the C & T positions is wrong as well. Why do pilots generally join an airline such as Cx? Is it not because of career aspirations to eventually achieve a command through a normal and excepted seniority based promotion system? This is normal career progression. On the other hand, taking a C & T position, is completely different. It is not based on a seniority system; it is not equally available to all; and most importantly, it is completely voluntary. It is a personal choice to help the company out in exactly the same way that people choose to (or not) answer their phones, work on G-days, or fly the freighter. Definitely not helpful to our cause in the current environment.
The simple truth is that if people stopped taking these Training positions, it would probably put the ball back in our court. It would do more for our cause then asking individuals to not answer their phones. However, let's do everything we can. Don't voluntarily answer your phone when not required to do so; don't voluntarily work on G-days; and don't voluntarily help with the company expansion in Check & Training. The company is desperate... they need us for these training positions in the same way they need us on G-days.
It is our responsibility to stand firm and set the bar as high as possible in defense of future attacks on our COS. We should do this by not helping out in any way shape or form. If the company calls you with a request to work on a G-day; ask them how much it would cost to cancel the flight... and set you price accordingly. If the company calls to request your services in the Training department; ask them how much they are paying the extendees... and set you price accordingly. Better yet, don't answer any of their calls/requests. Make them negotiate with the AOA. This would benefit everyone in the long run by us setting the bar at the highest possible level. Don't take the job at the lowest common denominator. They desperately need us. Therefore, we should not volunteer for any more Training positions until they are willing to negotiate a better package for all.
Further, is the C&T position not considered a management position as well? Who is imposing these inferior Conditions Of Service on us? Is it not the management? How can we join them in their cause, while at the same time desperately trying to protect our position? By indirectly putting pressure on the company, we can empower the AOA negotiators. Until such time, volunteering our services to the company will only serve to further degrade our position.
The one thing that I do agree on is that we should stand united, and move forward together. So let's unite in one common direction. Their has to be a plan. Currently there appears to be no guidance from the AOA what so ever. However, there is an overwhelming call from the membership to "not" help the company out. Let's do this together... everyone.
It is not too late to get improvements. It has been said before... but they are surviving only on our goodwill.
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No B scale CT
There should not be one B scale pilot in CT under the current package IMO. All of these people are driven by ego and ladder climbing alone. This group have successfuly weakened the bargaining position for themselves and the entire pilot body as a result of self interest. Alot of the culprits were the "big voices"(I stress voices) in 2001.They also tend to complain the most. A great opportunity lost.
Dr Helen Smith Forensic Psychologist
Knoxville, Tennessee, United States
"Everybody wants someone else to do their dirty work"
Knoxville, Tennessee, United States
The Psychology of Confrontation
Have you ever noticed how frightened people are of confrontation--even if it just means the slightest bit of displeasure from another person? Normally, these non-confronters think of themselves as "very good and moral people" and believe the reason they do not confront is to save another's feelings. But in truth, they are so afraid of causing themselves a moment's displeasure, that they will do anything to get out of being direct with another person.
Have you ever noticed how frightened people are of confrontation--even if it just means the slightest bit of displeasure from another person? Normally, these non-confronters think of themselves as "very good and moral people" and believe the reason they do not confront is to save another's feelings. But in truth, they are so afraid of causing themselves a moment's displeasure, that they will do anything to get out of being direct with another person.
I just looked up my dictionary to check the spelling of CAREER for another thread and found something interesting:--
CAREERIST N Person who seeks advancement by any possible means
Fits these guys quite well don't you think?
CAREERIST N Person who seeks advancement by any possible means
Fits these guys quite well don't you think?
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What does our Union Leadership say about members taking up Check and Training positions, or guys extending, or joining on CoS 2008?
Nothing, so what's your problem?
What we should be concentrating on, is getting a clear message from our Union GC regarding what is expected of members.
If you think that a ban on check and trainers is called for (or other forms of contact compliance) then communicate this officially to your GC (call, email or write-in asap), and encourage all of your mates to do the same.
"Slagging-off" individuals on a public forum is a waste of time. Also blaming other groups of pilots (extendees, trainers, new joiners etc) for not fighting your battles, is naive. The only way issues such as a "C&T ban" would ever come in to play is through very clear leadership from the AOA GC. Such leadership is currently "missing in action".
If you are frustrated with our position as CX pilots, then focus your efforts on communicating your views and ideas to the AOA leadership. Our biggest problem at the moment is a GC Executive who are unwilling to listen to any call for action.
We have to make them listen, before we can turn to the details of how we start to apply pressure on CX.
Nothing, so what's your problem?
What we should be concentrating on, is getting a clear message from our Union GC regarding what is expected of members.
If you think that a ban on check and trainers is called for (or other forms of contact compliance) then communicate this officially to your GC (call, email or write-in asap), and encourage all of your mates to do the same.
"Slagging-off" individuals on a public forum is a waste of time. Also blaming other groups of pilots (extendees, trainers, new joiners etc) for not fighting your battles, is naive. The only way issues such as a "C&T ban" would ever come in to play is through very clear leadership from the AOA GC. Such leadership is currently "missing in action".
If you are frustrated with our position as CX pilots, then focus your efforts on communicating your views and ideas to the AOA leadership. Our biggest problem at the moment is a GC Executive who are unwilling to listen to any call for action.
We have to make them listen, before we can turn to the details of how we start to apply pressure on CX.
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jonathon68 writes
What does our Union Leadership say about members taking up Check and Training positions, or guys extending, or joining on CoS 2008?
Nothing, so what's your problem?
Nothing, so what's your problem?
THAT IS THE PROBLEM
Do you check in with the AOA before you have a crap in the morning?I'm sure you have a good brain, try using it!
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I still think yuo need to have rocks in your head for taking up a training post. Their rosters suck 90% of the time. They constantly get shafted by Crew control on days off. your work load goes up by 30% if not more.
All of this for just 10% more money....nah!
All of this for just 10% more money....nah!
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Jonathon68 writes:
If you think that a ban on check and trainers is called for (or other forms of contact compliance) then communicate this officially to your GC (call, email or write-in asap), and encourage all of your mates to do the same.
Where have you been???? What do you think many of us have been doing for months and months? We have been tirelessly trying to communicate with the AOA GC regarding this issue; but with no results. That's why we must try and spread the word by other means. As you say, we have a GC that fails to listen. And that is precisely the problem. They won't listen because half of them are in C&T positions themselves, and more are stepping forward as we speak. Do your research... you'll find that another, apparently pro AOA GC member, has just stepped forward. They really do have rocks in their heads! Many of our current GC members are individuals only looking out for themselves! Selfish!
Having said that though, there are some good guys on that GC; and more "true to our cause" are stepping forward as we speak. These guys do need our support. I take my hat off to them.
In the meantime, at least until the AOA gets it together, get your head out of the sand and stop helping the company out. That means no answering your phone, no working on G-days, and most importantly no volunteering for C&T positions. You don't need the AOA to hold your hand on this one. Unless of course you're gonna be selfish like many of them, and use the lack of guidance from the AOA as an excuse as well. Only idiots would not realize what damage they are doing by volunteering for any of these situations.
In the meantime, spread the word... And the next time you see one of them walking around like someone special, ask them what they really stand for.
I had a gentle dig at one TC the day, I said "i don't know why you bother...........blah blah"
His response? "someone has to pass these people"
I hope he was joking.
His response? "someone has to pass these people"
I hope he was joking.
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For those who actually believe the drivvel being posted here you are a bunch of group-thinking fools..
Firstly, after the 49ers you expected everybody else to fight your fight for you. You all still took upgrades whilst trying to ban new joiners coming in to the company and calling them scabs. What sort of selfish logic was that?
Now you expect TC's to fight your fight for you and attack them with your cowardly anonymous rhetoric on PPRUNE.
How about you get off you collective whining backsides and actually do something constructive to improve your lot. Convert the Whining into tangible action or shut up.
Firstly, after the 49ers you expected everybody else to fight your fight for you. You all still took upgrades whilst trying to ban new joiners coming in to the company and calling them scabs. What sort of selfish logic was that?
Now you expect TC's to fight your fight for you and attack them with your cowardly anonymous rhetoric on PPRUNE.
How about you get off you collective whining backsides and actually do something constructive to improve your lot. Convert the Whining into tangible action or shut up.
I have, I knocked back training and I refuse to work on a G day.
I stand ready willing and able to support my union when called apon to do so.
What have YOU done A. Le Rhone? What's your position then?
I stand ready willing and able to support my union when called apon to do so.
What have YOU done A. Le Rhone? What's your position then?
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A. Le Rhone
Is that your best defense that you can come up with? You're obviously one of the selfish individuals that this thread refers to. You probably also work on G-days, and do everything else to line your pockets, while screwing all the juniors below you. Shame on you! People like you will forever be remembered, and held accountable, for the reduction in terms imposed by our wonderful loving employer.
For your information, many of us stood strong during the 49er situation, and have done so ever since. Just because others may not have, still doesn't make it right that you're helping the company out now by taking C & T. No excuses please.
And, we're not expecting you to fight our fight; we're just expecting you to do your part - like many others are doing. Do your part by not being selfish and helping out on G-day's, or in C & T. For the benefit of everyone. Not rocket science.
Instead of attacking people on this forum for venting their frustrations, maybe you should consider enlightening us on why you choose to do what you do? Can you please explain the benefits to the membership when people like you go and selfishly undermine the negotiating position of the AOA?
Thanks to people like you, we now have imposed COS08! Well done.
For your information, many of us stood strong during the 49er situation, and have done so ever since. Just because others may not have, still doesn't make it right that you're helping the company out now by taking C & T. No excuses please.
And, we're not expecting you to fight our fight; we're just expecting you to do your part - like many others are doing. Do your part by not being selfish and helping out on G-day's, or in C & T. For the benefit of everyone. Not rocket science.
Instead of attacking people on this forum for venting their frustrations, maybe you should consider enlightening us on why you choose to do what you do? Can you please explain the benefits to the membership when people like you go and selfishly undermine the negotiating position of the AOA?
Thanks to people like you, we now have imposed COS08! Well done.