2008 salary scales

[Goldeye]

24 December 2007

Ladies and Gentlemen:

The revised 2008 salary scales and HDP rates are available for viewing via Crew Direct > Conditions of Service.

Sten Krouton
Personnel & Industrial Manager Flight Crew


Gee thanks Sten, and Merry Christmas to you too!http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons/umph.gif

[Numero Crunchero]

To save time

For those who can't be bothered looking up the CX link to see the 2008 pay scales....

A scalers - find the pay scales from 1993 and 1994 and you will find your salary commensurate with those figures

B scalers - sorry you will have to fossick a little deeper, your 2008 payscales are on par with those prevalent in 1992.

DEFOs - well as far as the Oz base is concerned, the salary is equivalent to Aus B scales in 1994.

So no need to look up these new salary scales, just dust off those decade old payscales and save yourself some time!


Three things to consider when comparing salaries over time....exchange rates, CoL and tax.

CoL has gone up in all our major countries of origin - houses have doubled to quadrupled alone!
Tax - HKG hasn't really changed, but Oz basing didn't pay any oz tax in 90's- things have changed since
Exchange rates....base salaries were based on 11.5 for UK (vice 16 today), 5.5 for Aus (vice 6.8 today) and around 5.8(I think) for Canada (vice 7.8 today).

So on those measures the current salary is well short, in real terms, versus the salaries that existed over a decade ago for A and B scales!

[ashcroft79]

Forgive my ignorance but I have two questions for those of you who work at cx.

I haven't had any luck opening up the link that was posted so I can't see the pay scales, but what is the difference between an A scale and B scale?? Is it dependent on your hire date?

What else does this new CoSo 8 effect for someone who gets hired after the first of the year.

To those of you who do reply, thank you for your help. I'm trying to make an educated guess as to what my next career move should be, and I value any and all insight that those of you who work at cx might have.

Happy Holidays

[Numero Crunchero]

aschroft

There are so many variations in the payscales that it is hard to give a simple answer.
Here are some snapshots which I am basing on you wanting to join as a DEFO?

US A(USAB) scale is 40.8% higher than UFO(US) for 1st year FO.
Aus A scale is 40.5% higher than UFO(AUS) for 1st year FO.
EUR A scale is 41.1%higher than UFO(EUR) for 1st year FO.

The differences reduce over your career. By the time you will have been here 20 years you should be around SCN3-5 where the difference is down to 20% in favour or A scales. Based on the 2008 payscales the minimum difference you will ever achieve is when you get to SCN 17 which will be in about 32-35 years - then you are only around 10% behind A scales!

[Penske]

Have the company actually posted the new scales?

I have gone to crew direct > conditions of service, and clicked on every link. All that is there are the 1999 documents, and a 2008 Freighter document with no pay scale or HDP scale attached.

Am I missing something?

[ashcroft79]

Thank you for the post N.C. I know what you mean by all the different payscales. I'm trying to figure it all out myself. Do any of you guys ever look at the airline pilot central website?? So far that's the only thing I really have to go off of. Is it acurate?? It also only shows one pay rate for the cargo side in the U.S.

[Subwoofer]

Penske:
You'll find the payscale in the 1999 CoS document, which has been amended at the end.

Ashcroft:
A-scale is for pilots hired pre-1992 (if I recall correctly), and B-scale is for pilots hired since. Starting in 2008, if you're hired as a First Officer (as opposed to Second Officer) you will start on the Unified-FO Scale.

There are lots of changes in CoS 08, which include such deal breakers as no bypass pay and other jewels, but I am very unqualifid to answer those. If you seach for it here ("CoS" is too short to search for, try "conditions of service") you should find more info.

I think a lot of people would agree that Cathay used to be a world-class airline as far as how they treat their crew, but just like the airlines in the states, it's a race to the bottom to cut all the costs that they can.

[christep]

Originally Posted by Numero Crunchero

Three things to consider when comparing salaries over time....exchange rates, CoL and tax.

CoL has gone up in all our major countries of origin - houses have doubled to quadrupled alone!
Tax - HKG hasn't really changed, but Oz basing didn't pay any oz tax in 90's- things have changed since
Exchange rates....base salaries were based on 11.5 for UK (vice 16 today), 5.5 for Aus (vice 6.8 today) and around 5.8(I think) for Canada (vice 7.8 today).

So on those measures the current salary is well short, in real terms, versus the salaries that existed over a decade ago for A and B scales!

Again, if I may, an outside perspective from one of those who lives in Hong Kong and indirectly pays your wages... (please just skip the rest of this post if that's not of interest, and my apologies for the intrusion)

I can't see any way to set salaries except based on where you are employed. Having a salary level based on anything else would I am sure be regarded as discriminatory - would it be based on your passport? the place where you lived directly before joining CX? some place of your choosing where you happen to have property? or what? If you accept a long-term job in Hong Kong then it seems to me that you have to accept the Hong Kong prices, taxes, etc that come with it. That's certainly how it is in most other industries - time on fancy "expat" terms is very limited: once you are somewhere for the long term (normally more than 3 or at most 5 years) then you're no different from anyone employed locally. If you don't like Hong Kong (the climate, the food, the pollution, whatever) then find somewhere more in accord with your desires - you are in a very mobile profession with, apparently, a shortage of supply versus demand. I don't know enough about how basing works so I won't comment on that, except to say that I don't know of anywhere that CX bases pilots where there aren't a significant number of other potential employers, and it's a free market - if that's where you want to live and CX's isn't the best offer for you then the answer is obvious.

So, looking at Hong Kong, the Consumer Price Index in Hong Kong is currently at 106.7 (normalised on the average of 10/2004 -9/2005 = 100). That is still 10% LOWER than the peak in reached in May 1998, and approximately equal to the level of June 1996.
( Source: http://www.censtatd.gov.hk/showtable...sp?tableID=052 )

Looking at property in Hong Kong, the Private Purchase index composite index is about 30% BELOW the peak it hit in 1997, and approximately equal to the level at the beginning of 1994. Private rental is about 20% below the 1997 peak, and approximately equal to the level in the second half of 1993.
( Source: http://www.rvd.gov.hk/en/doc/statistics/his_data_4.pdf
and http://www.rvd.gov.hk/en/doc/statistics/his_data_3.pdf respectively, supplemented by http://www.rvd.gov.hk/en/doc/statistics/rvd1_2.pdf for the 2007 figures )

Tax is essentially unchanged.

So the nominal cost of living in Hong Kong is now more or less the same as it was in 1994-95. On this basis it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that the base payscales are more or less the same also,

Comparing salaries across industries is always tricky, particularly where pilots are a quite unusual case where there are essentially just a small number of fixed levels of competence. Once you are a Captain you are equally as valuable to the employer as any other Captain (training and other responsibilities excluded since they are compensated separately as I understand it). That being so, the salary progression that you would expect in other careers based on merit as people get more responsibilities can't really happen. So to keep people interested there's a seniority-based payscale.

If you've never worked in any other job you may not realise quite how unusual this is. Very few businesses give people more money (in real terms) year after year without any increase in the value they get for that money. Where is this money supposed to come from? If profits are to continue at the same level you need either to reduce some other costs or increase your revenues. Hence, I suppose, all the "nickel 'n' diming" of passengers that goes on these days, and the quite outrageous "fuel surcharges" which are simply a scam, as the EU is now starting to realise.

I can't quickly find the HK pax payscales, but assuming the progression is similar to the US Freighter payscale (yes, a huge leap I know, so correct me if I am wrong) the increase in salary from Captain-1 to Captain-10 is about 30%. This is the REAL increase in addition to any movement in the underlying payscales (which there hasn't been in HK, because the overall cost of living now is actually lower than it was 10 years ago, and the same as it was 13-14 years ago). In pretty much any other field people would be delighted to sit in the same job for 10 years and get a 3% REAL increase in salary every year. I know I would.

As I said, this is just an outsider's perspective. My only connection to CX is that I have flown enough to be Diamond for the last 7 years, although I'm about to lose that since I don't travel on business any more and the CX service levels have dropped (whilst prices have increased substantially) such that I don't want to spend my own dime that way any more.

Now back to your regularly scheduled postings...

[Arfur Dent]

Thanks Chris. I think that's an interesting look at our salary development. I think NC could confirm that our salaries in REAL terms have been eroded substantially over the last 10 years. You only have to look at all the lists of salaries to see the picture. There are 3 published lists on each base. I think they are 1999/2000 and 2001 and each salary (for a given level) reduces. Just as an example, the salary for a year 17 Capt in London reduces by 14,000 GBP over those 3 years. This is 'A' scale as far as I can tell. As for the 2008 version which is supposed to be available - I can't find it either. Smoke and mirrors.
We are despised by Managementand regarded as an expensive necessity (millionaire morons). There are about 8 different pay scales and you would need to conduct an interview with another employee to find out what deal he/she is actually on (divide and rule).
Hollow Xmas messages thanking us all for our help in the 'stellar performance' in 2008 brings a wry smile to our faces. We just know that TT and the rest of them have no regard for Aircrew at all. The cheaper the better. Bunch of whinging idiots of little/no intellect and even less industrial muscle. If they get out of hand - fire 50 of them destroying lives of hundreds of people just to prove how BIG you are in the 'playground'. A couple of resultant suicides didn't bother them either.
That's the reality.
Merry Xmas to you too Tony.

[boocs]

Numero,
Would you care to include the KA payscales as well now that we are all part of the same big happy family. We are happy aren't we... aren't we????
These would include KA :

A Scale
B Scale
Local B Scale (not sure if local A scale is different)
FCS
HKG Report
The can of worms seems to grow and grow and grow............

b.

[jtr]

Fragrant Harbour - A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum

[Millstream]

A Little More Clarity

Hi christep

I can't see any way to set salaries except based on where you are employed. Having a salary level based on anything else would I am sure be regarded as discriminatory - would it be based on your passport?

Dig a bit deeper. The truth is that CX does not recruit many pilots from HKG - a handful of Cadets each year. Most CX pilots are experienced and come from abroad and the first thing that a prospective recruit will do is get out his calculator and divide by the current exchange rate.

This would explain why CX is losing so many pilots at the moment (100 per year?). And why they are finding it very difficult to recruit.

So I agree with your overall thrust that the market will sort this out.

That's certainly how it is in most other industries - time on fancy "expat" terms is very limited: once you are somewhere for the long term (normally more than 3 or at most 5 years) then you're no different from anyone employed locally.

Dig a bit deeper. Most "in other industries" who stay have their expat allowances converted into increased salary. Ask yourself why these other industries and CX have to offer these terms in the first place. The reasons do not go away.

So the nominal cost of living in Hong Kong is now more or less the same as it was in 1994-95.

Really? Have you lived in HKG since '94?

In pretty much any other field people would be delighted to sit in the same job for 10 years and get a 3% REAL increase in salary every year. I know I would.

Dig a bit deeper. This is the way the market pays pilots. I know its not how you are paid so may be difficult to understand.
What is going on is that young pilots forgo salary early on in their career, hoping they will make it up later on. Not sure a young pilot would invest 1 Million HK in his training to earn 300K for the rest of his career.

For your system to work, pilots salaries for the younger pilots (of whom there are many more), would have to be increased substantially for the pilot market to deliver sufficient pilots.

The airlines are actually quite happy with the current arrangement. It instils loyalty, which avoids costly training. Also makes expansion cheaper since your pilots stay junior and cheap.

My only connection to CX is that I have flown enough to be Diamond for the last 7 years, although I'm about to lose that since I don't travel on business any more and the CX service levels have dropped (whilst prices have increased substantially) such that I don't want to spend my own dime that way any more.

Sorry to hear that - truly I am.
(One of the reasons this is happening is that CX is losing the edge in the Cabin. Its still good compared to the likes of QF, BA, AA etc....despite the way CX treats its cabin staff. However, this treatment is beginning to "pay off"....and you are the evidence. But I digress.)

It sounds as if CX has tough times ahead, both in the air transportation market and the pilot market. Note: Though related, these are different markets. It is possible for there to be a shortage of pilots, with salaries rising even when airlines are doing badly. Bit like fuel prices really - they can go up even if the airlines are doing badly.

There are massive numbers of cockpits to be filled in the next few years around the world. No doubt there has been some over ordering and margins will suffer - quite a few of these airframes may not be delivered. I very much doubt though that this will alleviate the shortage of pilots.

Milly

[NewEssO]

I am naive, but I believe in working hard and reward those who work hard. and it's been paying off

please humour me guys, if there is such a big shortage with cx and the crew, woud'nt make sense to pay the pilot better, spend a bit more money on trainers and get the juniors (SOs) to upgrade faster?!

[Mullah Lite]

A very interesting read, thanks for posting Christep.

Fellow aviators, I think that it's not a bad idea to pay attention to what was written in that post. Christep has basically highlighted something which I think has not received enough attention on our part. The opinion was expressed by someone clearly exposed a little more to the company, albeit on a SLF capacity, than the average punter. Thanks to Millstream, a few things were pointed out to realign perspective a little more from our viewpoint, but the fact remains that a very fair and reasoned post like Christep's (from an outsider's standpoint) underscores the general public's consensus that we are already paid enough as it is, and that we should not be striving to ask for too much. After all, everyone else around us gets a commensurate bag of rice for the amount of revenue they generate for the company, why should we be exempt from that perceived parity?

To encourage more people to part with their money and see the world, the spin surrounding the air travel industry has striven very hard to numb the fact that if someone along our chain of operations is having a bad day, any one of us on the flight deck had better be on our A-game because we're the final barrier between headline news and no news at all. The fact also that every one of us has to go through a battery of checks, incessant self study and training (or checking at CX but that's another story) till we fall off the seniority list, not to mention everything we had to go through before coming to this company, is never emphasised when it comes to pay issues. On top of all this, it's most people's assumption that we should be grateful for being able to do a job we love, that so many people would give their left leg to do if they could. Well, I for one am very grateful. Still have to pay back my loans that got me here though, whilst living in one of the most expensive cities in the world.

My point is that, our leverage with the company would be far greater if public opinion could be swayed to see things from our perspective. Too often we are quite happy to shrug shoulders and brush off the notion that on any given day we report for duty, we shoulder a heavier responsibility than the average Central business district worker (no disrespect to lawyers or i-bankers). But I'm also sure that, if someone would list out just what is required of us for any given duty, and made that information publicly available when it came to crunch time, our negotiation position would be substantially stronger. This is Asia, face means a lot more here than many places we come from.

It's time for us to start playing the game at the same level the company does. Who will cast the first die onto the monopoly board?

[ACMS]

If Christep wanted to be a Pilot he should have applied..................................
My Pay and COS are between CX the AOA and ME. What he thinks doesn't matter two hoots.
oooohhhhh he was a DIAMOND card holder...................big deal.

( there.......fixed )

[christn]

At least he can spell 'Diamond'!

[MidgetBoy]

Maybe when you scream diamond out loud it sounds like daimond.. =P

[Mullah Lite]

ACMS

I'm not disagreeing with you at all about contract negotiations and who should be involved. I'm just saying that the AOA's/pilot body's negotiation power could be boosted with a hefty swell of public opinion backing us. I'll admit I can't quantify by how much it would help, but certainly it can't hurt. I'm sure most people would agree that the company places a lot of importance on how it is perceived in the public spotlight. They've certainly played the 'socially responsible and moral despite being a corporate titan' card enough times when they've needed to.

I'll also admit that I don't see the AOA doing much else towards countering the company's actions. DEFO, DEC, COS 08, Unified C payscale already in effect, with 3 man ULH and Age 65 to come. So far all I've read about recently from our boxing ring corner is a letter to the company stating our belief of what the the dissolution of the FACA really means and the possibility of court action if we don't like what we hear from the company. Sounds remarkably like...

"Kim Jong Il: Hans, Hans, Hans! We've been frew this a dozen times. I don't have any weapons of mass destwuction, OK Hans?
Hans Blix: Then let me look around, so I can ease the UN's collective mind. I'm sorry, but the UN must be firm with you. Let me in, or else.
Kim Jong Il: Or else what?
Hans Blix: Or else we will be very angry with you... and we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are. "

[ACMS]

Forget Joe Public mate.

We will never ever win any votes from them.

Hasn't ever happened in any dispute that I can think of.

All the Public think we are overpaid bus drivers, you ain't gunna change that perspective enough to matter.

[NewEssO]

i didn't find much info in the contract. How about things like Provident fund and pension for DESO? what is involved and is it the same for everybody joining regardless of whether the pilot is a DESO, ex-cadet SO, DEFO, freighter, UFO, captain etc?

thanks!
NSO