KA's average payrise
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The dragonair pay increase has got very little to do with the merits of the DPA over the AOA and everything to do with the fact that KA have been losing guys to anywhere and everywhere. Those of you knocking the AOA and using the success of the DPA in negotiations are sadly a little wide of the mark. If cathay had a hundred guys resign tomorrow, and plenty were skippers, the company would be only too happy to make upward changes to the pay and conditions, while there isn't many leaving and there are plenty joining not much will change.
Sad but true.
Sad but true.
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Don't forget when you look at the KA pay scale this does not include the yearly gratuity. So add another 15% to the figures and I think you find it stands up quite nicely to the CX package. Then add to that that commands are still running at 3 and a bit years I think it is now way ahead. Subtract from that, that we still just fly China regional and we are probably back to even.
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Stillalbatross;
Couldn't agree with you more. You've gotta walk to make them talk..
A market supply/demand phenomena... If not for the resignations...the DPA, like the AOA, will still be negotiating till the cows come home...and the Round Table wouldn't have taken notice.
Couldn't agree with you more. You've gotta walk to make them talk..
A market supply/demand phenomena... If not for the resignations...the DPA, like the AOA, will still be negotiating till the cows come home...and the Round Table wouldn't have taken notice.
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Is a pay rise enough?
Come on guys, get real, and put a stop to the CX vs KA stuff and unite in the fact that you're all professional flight crew with a common goal. There are many disparities in each and every area of your corporate empires, but the simple fact remains that you all want a decent lifestyle.
There's not much that you can do about the levels of pollution that add to the blight of living and working in HKG; you either like it or lump it, so it really is a question of accepting a temting salary that might keep you there. The only other issue(s) are/is the devious methods that are employed by a 'one sided' rostering agreement that is subject to misinterpretation, i.e. the company reserves the right to a final say in the interpretation of those rules. I feel sure that many people have received the 'blunt end' of just how those rules can be wrongly 'interpreted' by the company; therefore, it's a 'level playing field' that is rightfully requested by those who have experienced the levels of intimidation from the management. Whilst it's one thing to have robust rules in place to ensure that services aren't disrupted, it's entitely another case when 'grey areas' aren't treated with some form of common sense from both parties. Contract Compliance has attempted to address some of those grey areas, yet the management have continued to pressurise flight crew into doing something which is clearly out of order to any sane individual. It really can be a minefield when trying interpret the rules, but it's also true to say that there will never be a truly robust FTL scheme that will adequately address both parties; one or the other (parties) will at sometime or another try to gain the upper hand because they are strapped by circumstances.
When morale is low amongst the flight crew they (the crew) will naturally fight against the management structure. In response, the management will push you to the limits of FTLs; at their ultimate discretion and interpretation of the scheme rules (rightly or wrongly). The (HK)ANO legally gives you the right to pronounce yourself as being unfit for duty if you have had inadequte rest, yet the rules are open to misinterpretation by the company... yet they have the final say in the matter!
My factual example is... If you have planned your sleep period to accommodate a day (twleve hour) duty commencing at 0700L and the company subsequently contacts you on the bus en route to the airport to inform you of a significant delay and that you should return home, but then contact you at 0900L (at home) to say that you are now to report at 2100L for a round trip to TPE; which you do, but then find yourself delayed until a 0200L departure! At midnight I made it clear to CC that I wasn't happy with my crew rest period, inasmuch that it wasn't possible to take another sleep pattern prior to this 'night' duty (despite 12 hours notice). The response was that I had been given adequate rest (12 hours) for the projected duty! I was very tired after a previous duty of three consecutive night duties which ended with a 24 hour rest period into my planned day duty. My 'A' scale captain gave me no support whatsoever and I admit to blowing my top at the Crew Controller... yet we departed at 0200L and returned from TPE at 0900L the next morning. I had now spent 24 hours awake... that was one hell of a grey area; particularly when the F/O had to wake me up at Limes!
Needless to say, I was interviewed by the schoolmaster for the less than professional manner in which I spoke to the duty Crew Controller and a warning letter put on file for my disafection with the company... was I tired? No, I was exhausted! Did I walk from the company? No, I sprinted!
My apologies for such a lengthy missive, but this is only one of many examples that led to my exasperated state of mind and my exodus from KA. It was the worst experience ever of my entire flying career... would a significant payrise have kept me there? I have to give a resounding NO!
It's my hope that your payrise will be matched by a significant increase in quality crew management. I'll say it again... well done to the DPA for making a significant inroad, but don't give up with your attempts to fight for a level playing field.
There's not much that you can do about the levels of pollution that add to the blight of living and working in HKG; you either like it or lump it, so it really is a question of accepting a temting salary that might keep you there. The only other issue(s) are/is the devious methods that are employed by a 'one sided' rostering agreement that is subject to misinterpretation, i.e. the company reserves the right to a final say in the interpretation of those rules. I feel sure that many people have received the 'blunt end' of just how those rules can be wrongly 'interpreted' by the company; therefore, it's a 'level playing field' that is rightfully requested by those who have experienced the levels of intimidation from the management. Whilst it's one thing to have robust rules in place to ensure that services aren't disrupted, it's entitely another case when 'grey areas' aren't treated with some form of common sense from both parties. Contract Compliance has attempted to address some of those grey areas, yet the management have continued to pressurise flight crew into doing something which is clearly out of order to any sane individual. It really can be a minefield when trying interpret the rules, but it's also true to say that there will never be a truly robust FTL scheme that will adequately address both parties; one or the other (parties) will at sometime or another try to gain the upper hand because they are strapped by circumstances.
When morale is low amongst the flight crew they (the crew) will naturally fight against the management structure. In response, the management will push you to the limits of FTLs; at their ultimate discretion and interpretation of the scheme rules (rightly or wrongly). The (HK)ANO legally gives you the right to pronounce yourself as being unfit for duty if you have had inadequte rest, yet the rules are open to misinterpretation by the company... yet they have the final say in the matter!
My factual example is... If you have planned your sleep period to accommodate a day (twleve hour) duty commencing at 0700L and the company subsequently contacts you on the bus en route to the airport to inform you of a significant delay and that you should return home, but then contact you at 0900L (at home) to say that you are now to report at 2100L for a round trip to TPE; which you do, but then find yourself delayed until a 0200L departure! At midnight I made it clear to CC that I wasn't happy with my crew rest period, inasmuch that it wasn't possible to take another sleep pattern prior to this 'night' duty (despite 12 hours notice). The response was that I had been given adequate rest (12 hours) for the projected duty! I was very tired after a previous duty of three consecutive night duties which ended with a 24 hour rest period into my planned day duty. My 'A' scale captain gave me no support whatsoever and I admit to blowing my top at the Crew Controller... yet we departed at 0200L and returned from TPE at 0900L the next morning. I had now spent 24 hours awake... that was one hell of a grey area; particularly when the F/O had to wake me up at Limes!
Needless to say, I was interviewed by the schoolmaster for the less than professional manner in which I spoke to the duty Crew Controller and a warning letter put on file for my disafection with the company... was I tired? No, I was exhausted! Did I walk from the company? No, I sprinted!
My apologies for such a lengthy missive, but this is only one of many examples that led to my exasperated state of mind and my exodus from KA. It was the worst experience ever of my entire flying career... would a significant payrise have kept me there? I have to give a resounding NO!
It's my hope that your payrise will be matched by a significant increase in quality crew management. I'll say it again... well done to the DPA for making a significant inroad, but don't give up with your attempts to fight for a level playing field.
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I am not trying to make this a CX versus KA thread. I just think that anyone considering joining CX or KA should know how they compare. If commands are at the 3 year mark in KA then you are likely to have $4.5million HKD more earnings at KA than CX (thats 56% more)after 10 years and about 5000hrs+ command time, of which I am sure much of it will be A330 or even 744 so you will have plenty of widebody command. Of course you can't get a basing, at this stage, but then that is about to dry up at CX with RA65.
I just want to make sure those that love shiny new jets and love HKG choose the right airline to work for!
I just want to make sure those that love shiny new jets and love HKG choose the right airline to work for!
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job choice
Initially money may be the attraction, but quickly lifestyle will win out when reality cuts in.
KA's B744 operation is very uncertain. It may well end up under the CX wing, taken away as an option for KA pilots.
KA short haul has its advantage..mess up a landing and you'll probably get another chance the same day, not 6 weeks later.
KA life style issues have not meaningfully been addressed. Yet. ..
I do however believe KA management will at least now look at the problems. KA's style of flying severly limits the achievable outcome. China is not noted for effeciency.
More deck chairs to be rearanged.
KA's B744 operation is very uncertain. It may well end up under the CX wing, taken away as an option for KA pilots.
KA short haul has its advantage..mess up a landing and you'll probably get another chance the same day, not 6 weeks later.
KA life style issues have not meaningfully been addressed. Yet. ..
I do however believe KA management will at least now look at the problems. KA's style of flying severly limits the achievable outcome. China is not noted for effeciency.
More deck chairs to be rearanged.
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I have just checked my records and you have to bear in mind that with this payrise Captains are only on the same as I was on 13 years ago as an 'A' scaler. So good news yes but it needs to put into perspective.
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Some of you miss my point. I didn't intend this to get into a KA vs CX thread either but if a couple of hundred odd CX crew with experience (captains and senior f/o's) would resign tomorrow I'd happily take over Steve's job and get a result similar to KA. The cost of manning disruptions and grounded aircraft far outweighs the cost of the pay increase, it is that simple.
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And flights may be cancelled at CX in January according to the numbers for that month. Additionally, February's roster is looking particularly hard to produce. Despite enforced cancellation of leave for that month, flights WILL be cancelled (other excuses will be used to appease the hierarchy). The Airbus situation is looking especially precarious. Here's to my free type ratings!
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you anticipate that flights will be cancelled becaues of lack of crew ? how is it possible that the management is treating crews like sh!t when they are their bread and butter? this logic is beyond me
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Hey Chiterne flyer.....loved reading your post. This is a major issue with carriers that dont have well developed sched rules.
I have at times in the past been face with exactly the same conflict. I was hauled onto the red carpet a couple of times for the exact same reason. Not for getting upset at the scheduler, but for plain refusing to operate the flight. I just told them to find someone else...I was fatigued and a safety risk to fly. They wanted to put a letter in my file too. I refused to sign the letter there, and I said I had a right to fill in the rest of the details. When I did, and brought it back again with the entire story, they didn't like it. Haha...because you know what, it implicated the company and not me. I was told I have a bad attitude!! How's that! What...they want me to fall asleep while landing??? The stupidity is shocking at times and really frustrating.
Anyway, maybe you could recommend to your union to push some better sched rules. One model that works that I've seen is an "A" and "B" reserve. A is for first half of the day, B for the second. Company has to give you 24 hours notice to change your reserve time. Flight must commence in the 12 hour period, and limited to a certian length. That ensures coverage, and fair treatment to the Pilot. Just think what the passengers would think if they knew what your company was pulling. And shame on the management for saying it was your fault....obviously not a very mature managment attitude.
Cheers.
I have at times in the past been face with exactly the same conflict. I was hauled onto the red carpet a couple of times for the exact same reason. Not for getting upset at the scheduler, but for plain refusing to operate the flight. I just told them to find someone else...I was fatigued and a safety risk to fly. They wanted to put a letter in my file too. I refused to sign the letter there, and I said I had a right to fill in the rest of the details. When I did, and brought it back again with the entire story, they didn't like it. Haha...because you know what, it implicated the company and not me. I was told I have a bad attitude!! How's that! What...they want me to fall asleep while landing??? The stupidity is shocking at times and really frustrating.
Anyway, maybe you could recommend to your union to push some better sched rules. One model that works that I've seen is an "A" and "B" reserve. A is for first half of the day, B for the second. Company has to give you 24 hours notice to change your reserve time. Flight must commence in the 12 hour period, and limited to a certian length. That ensures coverage, and fair treatment to the Pilot. Just think what the passengers would think if they knew what your company was pulling. And shame on the management for saying it was your fault....obviously not a very mature managment attitude.
Cheers.
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555 - having read Chitterne's post, he was simply rebuked for his attitude to the crew controller.... the duty he chose to accept was in breach of the FTL scheme....blah blah blah, anyway this thread has gone wildly off topic.
The KA payrise proposal for the most part is a good one. I can pick holes in it but they are relatively minor. It is mostly acceptable to me so I will be mostly "back on board", assuming we all say yes.
The KA payrise proposal for the most part is a good one. I can pick holes in it but they are relatively minor. It is mostly acceptable to me so I will be mostly "back on board", assuming we all say yes.
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Ahh...yeah...we all tend to push a rivet loose on occasion when dealing with some office types. Expecially the sched people who dont have enough brains to look at a situation and find the "best" person for a sched change. Too many times I've seem them just take the easy route and tell the guy who happens to be checking back in from a long day that he is the one...becuase he is standing right there.
Anyway, good show Dragon-mates on your pay rise. I hope this trend continues.
Btw, are you guys able to manipulate your sched much? Like if you want some time off in the end or beginning of the month? Can you load yourself up on flying hours accordingly? Or is it all company discresion...and basically spread through out the month? Do you do alot of single leg days with layovers...resulting in many days away? Would you be able to do high productive days with min rest and get some decent time off? Who does reserve...junior or spread out on everyone?
Thanks guys.
555
Anyway, good show Dragon-mates on your pay rise. I hope this trend continues.
Btw, are you guys able to manipulate your sched much? Like if you want some time off in the end or beginning of the month? Can you load yourself up on flying hours accordingly? Or is it all company discresion...and basically spread through out the month? Do you do alot of single leg days with layovers...resulting in many days away? Would you be able to do high productive days with min rest and get some decent time off? Who does reserve...junior or spread out on everyone?
Thanks guys.
555
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555orange
Ahhh A preferential rostering system that allows pilots to request roster choices. Sounds so obvious, and has work last century in past employment.
No KA pilots can't request choices..Oops I forgot. yes we can. We can request more over nights. However when you are at 10+ for the month, even KA rostering finds it hard to fit more in.
We can also request 4 GDOs per month, unless you have any leave in that month. Then no request is entertained. If you receive 1 of those GDOs, it is considered your request has been granted.
Unable to request last 4 days of 1 month and the 1st 4 days of the next.
The money is needed, but most of KA issues needing addressing are life style issues
No KA pilots can't request choices..Oops I forgot. yes we can. We can request more over nights. However when you are at 10+ for the month, even KA rostering finds it hard to fit more in.
We can also request 4 GDOs per month, unless you have any leave in that month. Then no request is entertained. If you receive 1 of those GDOs, it is considered your request has been granted.
Unable to request last 4 days of 1 month and the 1st 4 days of the next.
The money is needed, but most of KA issues needing addressing are life style issues
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IBthesus 
Mate. Come on you sound like the guy on the dpa website writing all those posts arguing that rosters are more important than pay!
He was only a minority as it was a resounding "YES" vote.
Time will tell if what he was saying is prophetic
Gliderboy
Mate. Come on you sound like the guy on the dpa website writing all those posts arguing that rosters are more important than pay!
He was only a minority as it was a resounding "YES" vote.
Time will tell if what he was saying is prophetic
Gliderboy
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Yep, we have got some snap frozen yanks... Its a bit like noahs ark here, we have got at least 2 of just about everything. 
back on topic, good job DPA, cant wait for the management to see the difference now that we are out of CC...
back on topic, good job DPA, cant wait for the management to see the difference now that we are out of CC...
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Yes. Chomping at the bit. Back at work tomorrow and highly motivated!
I note the "Black Knight " wanders aimlessly around Level 2. His torment perpetual?
I note the "Black Knight " wanders aimlessly around Level 2. His torment perpetual?
Last edited by And Then; 23rd Dec 2007 at 00:52.
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And here comes the FCS - HKR (Hong Kong Report) offer.
Captains: Not too bad. 7% + 24000/mo + HDP hk$50/hr. 
FO's: BAD !!! 6% + HDP hk$25/hr. What a joke.
Time to visit Korean me thinks.
FO's: BAD !!! 6% + HDP hk$25/hr. What a joke.
Time to visit Korean me thinks.