3 man long-haul. Pandora's box?
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Air NZ also have a formal CONTROLLED REST IN COCKPIT system which
allows one pilot at the controls to sleep, not just in EXCEPTIONAL
circumstances as CX has recently promulgated.
This is clearly laid out in Air NZ's manuals, co-ordinated with cabin crew
and accepted practice.
The future will be 3 man long haul, or parked aircraft.
I can't see the CAD doing diddly squat, they have never helped
any aspect of flight safety.
allows one pilot at the controls to sleep, not just in EXCEPTIONAL
circumstances as CX has recently promulgated.
This is clearly laid out in Air NZ's manuals, co-ordinated with cabin crew
and accepted practice.
The future will be 3 man long haul, or parked aircraft.
I can't see the CAD doing diddly squat, they have never helped
any aspect of flight safety.
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If it does in fact change, it will not change back until we crash or have a major incident - whichever comes first. But then I think we will get all the publicity and media coverage that this subject deserves.
I truely belive we should be prepared (well prepared that is!) to hit the media as soon as proposal becomes official. Let the public know that when the fly Cathay Pacific Aeroplanes they fly with pilot who are sleeping. Have some good photos, statistics and comments posted. Hell even make advertisements in various new papers around the world. That should sort out the bunch.
I truely belive we should be prepared (well prepared that is!) to hit the media as soon as proposal becomes official. Let the public know that when the fly Cathay Pacific Aeroplanes they fly with pilot who are sleeping. Have some good photos, statistics and comments posted. Hell even make advertisements in various new papers around the world. That should sort out the bunch.
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Apparently Airbus , Boeing and some authorities are looking into the next generation cockpit ( post 787 ) with one pilot in the cruise already. If you allow one to sleep while one operate - as we do now - then why not just use two guys fo T/O and Land and in the cruise one goes to the bunk. This will allow for very long duty with only two guys.
With ADS B and new auto WX radars etc etc there's not much to do anyway....
Flight deck technology will monitor pilot's heart rate, eye movement etc to make sure he is awake and aware.
Maybe they will allow you to take your dog along for company - and to bite you if you touch anything.......
Welcome to the future....and the end of the pilot shortage.
With ADS B and new auto WX radars etc etc there's not much to do anyway....
Flight deck technology will monitor pilot's heart rate, eye movement etc to make sure he is awake and aware.
Maybe they will allow you to take your dog along for company - and to bite you if you touch anything.......
Welcome to the future....and the end of the pilot shortage.
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I hate to say it guys but 3 man ULH will be here before we know it and there is nowt we can do to stop it. My old man has a good mate in Air Canada who was telling him they are 3 man on YVR - HKG and have been for a while. Also going that way on a lot of other ULH routes. I've got mates that do UK-Red sea and return with just 2 of them, that's about 5.5 hours each way with an hour on the ground for a turn around. Virgin do 3 man Lhr-Hkg all year round, they do get a long stop though, with a syd night stop in there somewhere. As it's been said before, it's the easiest way to solve crewing problems.
Face it fella's, work's gonna become a lot harder, and rest (both during and before flights) alot more important.
Face it fella's, work's gonna become a lot harder, and rest (both during and before flights) alot more important.
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My guess is that they'll introduce three man on European flights, with "extended stay" layovers in better hotels as an acknowledgment of the "hardship", then when we've all stopped griping about it, they'll slide it back to our typically crappy short rest in typically crappy hotels.
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The Air Canada 3 man operation YVR-HKG is not always a 3 man crew. The crew compliment is based on the departure time from YVR and the flight time on the day. If it is a late night departure or if the flight time is over 13:55 it will be a 4 man crew. The 4th man PXs home though in almost all cases, so a 3 man crew HKG-YVR is the rule.
Been there, done that, and the 3 man flights are brutal.
Been there, done that, and the 3 man flights are brutal.
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Bending the rules
Reads like your the one who'll have the accident that ChairmanBoysClub writes about. If you are really tired all the time you need to see a doctor. If you are the captain and you see how tired you all are when you enter the cockpit, what are you doing taking off?
Have you ever read the ANO?
Yes, accident investigators look at crews' rosters after accidents/incidents.
Have you ever read the ANO?
Yes, accident investigators look at crews' rosters after accidents/incidents.
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A CX cockpit in most cases has crew from different bases on all differing time zones and therefore making comparisons difficult. Hence the "time zone" rostering that was implemented several years ago that is fairly unique to HKG (yes an error in previous post of mine). I think you will also find that the other operators crews fly significantly less hours per month.
But when it no longer suits the operator because of a self induced crew shortage.....hey presto ......change the rules so the company can benefit at the crews expense......
We have to make a lot of noise about this because commercial gain is put ahead of flight safety with the authorities blessing.
But when it no longer suits the operator because of a self induced crew shortage.....hey presto ......change the rules so the company can benefit at the crews expense......
We have to make a lot of noise about this because commercial gain is put ahead of flight safety with the authorities blessing.
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Already 4-man Long Haul puts many pilots operating the flight into sleeping out of their own regular time zones, like the HKG-Europe or HKG-US sectors. 3-man Long haul to Oz/NZ/ANC is just as bad. Putting 3-man Long Haul to Europe/US is just a disaster waiting to happen.
I say NO to 3-man Long Haul! There is a reason why they call it LONG HAUL!
I say NO to 3-man Long Haul! There is a reason why they call it LONG HAUL!
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It's coming
From a senior manager, it is confirmed that we will have three crew long haul. Apparently CAD will increase the three crew limit to 14 hours with some restrictions such as day flight only.
The Cathay Puppets at CAD haven't realised that what makes it a day flight could be different for every crew member. Lets use a very common example: A European based Captain with a Australian based FO and a Hong Kong based SO. So whose local day do the geniuses at CAD think it should be based on?
Apparently the total scientific rationale it is based on by CAD is "it's only an extra hour". So the question begs, at what point does the "extra hour " become too tiring (how many straws do break the camels back)? When did the research that the current AFTL's were based on become irrelevent? If the CAD had only asked or listened to the Pilot body and even bothered to look at the fatigue issue that exisits with the current three crew night flights to Australia (look at the where and when FDAP events are occurring) they just might have made an informed decision but it might have not suited their master.
I just can't wait to see them justify scientifically in court if the HKAOA decides to pursue the issue that way. I think the CAD will look very silly, again. They are probably hoping that won't happen under the current leadership. But they won't be leading in 6 months and I don't think the new leadership will be as quite as accommodating.
The Cathay Puppets at CAD haven't realised that what makes it a day flight could be different for every crew member. Lets use a very common example: A European based Captain with a Australian based FO and a Hong Kong based SO. So whose local day do the geniuses at CAD think it should be based on?
Apparently the total scientific rationale it is based on by CAD is "it's only an extra hour". So the question begs, at what point does the "extra hour " become too tiring (how many straws do break the camels back)? When did the research that the current AFTL's were based on become irrelevent? If the CAD had only asked or listened to the Pilot body and even bothered to look at the fatigue issue that exisits with the current three crew night flights to Australia (look at the where and when FDAP events are occurring) they just might have made an informed decision but it might have not suited their master.
I just can't wait to see them justify scientifically in court if the HKAOA decides to pursue the issue that way. I think the CAD will look very silly, again. They are probably hoping that won't happen under the current leadership. But they won't be leading in 6 months and I don't think the new leadership will be as quite as accommodating.
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Pandora's box is being opened...
Well is it too late to revisit this thread?
From the bars and bazaars the rumours say we're in for 3 man long haul pretty damn soon (poss early 2010).
Last chance to add your comments before the deal for flight time limitations between the CAD and CX is in dry ink.
Your backstop of the rostering agreement wont save you for long either..... when it runs out, that's it, you'll be rostered to the max by CX.
Have a nice career,
Sheko.
From the bars and bazaars the rumours say we're in for 3 man long haul pretty damn soon (poss early 2010).
Last chance to add your comments before the deal for flight time limitations between the CAD and CX is in dry ink.
Your backstop of the rostering agreement wont save you for long either..... when it runs out, that's it, you'll be rostered to the max by CX.
Have a nice career,
Sheko.
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Captains need to take responsibility
Have you ever read the ANO?
Further, many patterns will likely be rostered very tightly, and often will require discretion to complete the task, especially during the "shoulder period" between the seasons.
The simple answer: DO NOT USE DISCRETION. EVER. Even if delaying yourself down-route an extra day means that you'll miss a night out with your mates, don't set dangerous precedents.
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But wait theres more
Latest rumour I've heard from a SYD Captain is the CAD want to extend the leg stretch requirements to a point where the third Pilot will no longer be required on any Aussie flights. Anyone heard about that little gem?
If this really goes through, then being on a ULH base would be untenable. How about a mass return to HKG base for all those entitled to do so.
That would make them gasp!!!
That would make them gasp!!!
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no to 3 crew longhaul
It doesn't matter if any other airline does 3 man
what matters is that we all know that its not safe for our operations
it will cause long term fatigue and degrade safety
Now what are we going to do about it?
The public consultation was over a year ago how many of you wrote to the cad voicing concerns over proposed changes?
This issue is too important to discuss here the AOA must be made aware of the majority feeling on this.
The press will not help eg daily mail uk on 5th oct ran a story on pilot fatigue
by the 6th oct the general public cant remeber what was on the front page yet alone whats inside
what matters is that we all know that its not safe for our operations
it will cause long term fatigue and degrade safety
Now what are we going to do about it?
The public consultation was over a year ago how many of you wrote to the cad voicing concerns over proposed changes?
This issue is too important to discuss here the AOA must be made aware of the majority feeling on this.
The press will not help eg daily mail uk on 5th oct ran a story on pilot fatigue
by the 6th oct the general public cant remeber what was on the front page yet alone whats inside
Thread Starter
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All Aussie flights 2 man.
That's what rumour control says will be occuring.
Never mind only 3 crew long haul from the bases, try 2 crew to ALL of Oz and back. You'll be broken on arrival in HK to begin your pattern and get home afterwards completely wasted.
I wonder if anybody "upstairs" has thought what will occur if any of these long/short haul trips
actually end up diverting. If pushed to the limit on the flight itself, any second sector stuff "to get the aircraft home" would be impossible.
Never mind only 3 crew long haul from the bases, try 2 crew to ALL of Oz and back. You'll be broken on arrival in HK to begin your pattern and get home afterwards completely wasted.
I wonder if anybody "upstairs" has thought what will occur if any of these long/short haul trips
actually end up diverting. If pushed to the limit on the flight itself, any second sector stuff "to get the aircraft home" would be impossible.