3 man long-haul. Pandora's box?
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3 man long-haul. Pandora's box?
Dear colleages,
This is far too important to miss and therefore surely worthy of a new thread. To quote a comment on a separate thread:
"It seems we have resumed that old habit of shooting ourselves in the foot again. The pilot reps on the joint CAD AFTL committee have "agreed in principle to extending the 3 man AFTL to 14 hours". They are now just arguing the conditions that it can be used under. I thought the pilot reps were there so that the pilot body could be consulted??? Funny, I don't remember being consulted.
This is not an industrial matter in my opinion, it is flight safety issue. No amount of money is going to make this acceptable or safe. The three man flights such as to Australia and NZ are already the most tiring flights we do. Now they want us to tack a few more hours on and cross a bunch of time zones as well. Imagine the fourth sector on a "W" to Europe with a three man crew. It's no wonder they slipped the controlled rest paragraph into vol 2/2. This must be the exceptional circumstances they refer to except it will not be the exception but the norm to have someone sleeping in the seat.
This is just the CX management solution for screwing up the manning so badly. Can't they see that this will only make more people leave.
What can we do?
(1) email or telephone the AOA and say no way.
(2) Push the AOA to mount a legal challenge against the CAD over any changes and force them to justify any changes in court.
(3) If all else fails go public and through the media bring pressure on the CAD. BA and QF do 4 crew to Europe, why are we any less tired? From what I hear, the operators who do three crew have much longer slips in between but in my opinion, that is still not good enough.
NO NO NO"
So how would everybody like to post their comments on actually operating 3 man 14hr flights? I am led to believe that the CAD do not think it is a flight safety issue.... so is it?
If nobody complains (here or elsewhere) then before we blink it will be standard to be rostered as such. Why else do you all think its gone so quiet from the company? This is potentially a golden gift to CX from the CAD to man their new aircraft arrivals more easily and its creeping in the back door unannounced. DO SOMETHING! Put your comments under mine.Think of it as an open forum petition to the CAD/CX from those that are actually at the pointy end.
For my 10 cents worth I dont think its safe at all and its completely unsustainable with the level of fatigue that would creep in. Its bad enough already with 4 crew and under 24hr turnarounds and will only get worse as crew shortages bite.What a career airline eh? Join up all you wanabee people and enjoy getting unavoidably burnt out by the time you get your first hair cut.
This situation will affect YOU, AOA or not, whatever rank,sex,creed,age,colour,or flavour,so read the above...think on it and please add your comments (either way) because they need to be ON THE RECORD.... before its too late to challenge the CAD/CX.
This is far too important to miss and therefore surely worthy of a new thread. To quote a comment on a separate thread:
"It seems we have resumed that old habit of shooting ourselves in the foot again. The pilot reps on the joint CAD AFTL committee have "agreed in principle to extending the 3 man AFTL to 14 hours". They are now just arguing the conditions that it can be used under. I thought the pilot reps were there so that the pilot body could be consulted??? Funny, I don't remember being consulted.
This is not an industrial matter in my opinion, it is flight safety issue. No amount of money is going to make this acceptable or safe. The three man flights such as to Australia and NZ are already the most tiring flights we do. Now they want us to tack a few more hours on and cross a bunch of time zones as well. Imagine the fourth sector on a "W" to Europe with a three man crew. It's no wonder they slipped the controlled rest paragraph into vol 2/2. This must be the exceptional circumstances they refer to except it will not be the exception but the norm to have someone sleeping in the seat.
This is just the CX management solution for screwing up the manning so badly. Can't they see that this will only make more people leave.
What can we do?
(1) email or telephone the AOA and say no way.
(2) Push the AOA to mount a legal challenge against the CAD over any changes and force them to justify any changes in court.
(3) If all else fails go public and through the media bring pressure on the CAD. BA and QF do 4 crew to Europe, why are we any less tired? From what I hear, the operators who do three crew have much longer slips in between but in my opinion, that is still not good enough.
NO NO NO"
So how would everybody like to post their comments on actually operating 3 man 14hr flights? I am led to believe that the CAD do not think it is a flight safety issue.... so is it?
If nobody complains (here or elsewhere) then before we blink it will be standard to be rostered as such. Why else do you all think its gone so quiet from the company? This is potentially a golden gift to CX from the CAD to man their new aircraft arrivals more easily and its creeping in the back door unannounced. DO SOMETHING! Put your comments under mine.Think of it as an open forum petition to the CAD/CX from those that are actually at the pointy end.
For my 10 cents worth I dont think its safe at all and its completely unsustainable with the level of fatigue that would creep in. Its bad enough already with 4 crew and under 24hr turnarounds and will only get worse as crew shortages bite.What a career airline eh? Join up all you wanabee people and enjoy getting unavoidably burnt out by the time you get your first hair cut.
This situation will affect YOU, AOA or not, whatever rank,sex,creed,age,colour,or flavour,so read the above...think on it and please add your comments (either way) because they need to be ON THE RECORD.... before its too late to challenge the CAD/CX.
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Is it possible for the company to eventually apply 3-man ULH flight to North America? It is my understanding that Air Canada uses 3-man crews on the A340 between YVR and HKG.
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Get Media involed - This must not happen!
MEDIA is the only way.
Do any of u know any channels to get into the media.
The public would love to know about an ealier post about all crew falling asleep behind the wheel. Only to be woken by the alarm.
God helps us when the Wx is **** & fuel critical & technical problems. Or an enroute failure. When we are over the 'legal driving limit' due to lack of sleep. Medical fact (Crews News infact)
The public should be warned ...
PW this is another rescue attement for your prefect crewing plan.
Boy you are a clever chap
Do any of u know any channels to get into the media.
The public would love to know about an ealier post about all crew falling asleep behind the wheel. Only to be woken by the alarm.
God helps us when the Wx is **** & fuel critical & technical problems. Or an enroute failure. When we are over the 'legal driving limit' due to lack of sleep. Medical fact (Crews News infact)
The public should be warned ...
PW this is another rescue attement for your prefect crewing plan.
Boy you are a clever chap
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3 man ulh
They already have 3 man crew- duty 15hours maximum, only to return to Hkg -EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES! This is the limit we should go to and NO CHANGES!!! 4 crew ulh ONLY! Speak up people!
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The Slide Continues
AC did at one time operate 3 man HKG-YVR but it soon became a safety related issue and with the help of foresight and union protection the practice has since stopped. To all my mates at CX best wishes and good luck on this one. It seems like you guys/gals can not count on anything anymore ie. pay, conditions (65), bases, training, command progression and now for all your efforts and (captain's) discretion you can all expect to work a little harder for your ever shrinking paycheck (inflation and tanking Green Back)... It's a race to the bottom and this is a race where CX really can be a market leader! So sad. Fight the good fight gents/ladies and in the meantime look for greener grass... There is life after CX...
On the subject: What has changed in Aviation to make 14 hour/3 man operations any safer than when your flight time limitations were first introduced? Has this change, directly affecting safety, been implemented simply due to greed?.. There have been volumes written concerning pilot fatigue and yet duty times are ever increasing in our industry because there is always some other airline that does it longer or with less crew. All I can say is comparing Apples to Oranges (comparing individual rules versus the sum of another airlines' operating rules ie. "Cherry Picking") will get you no where and manning levels are your last link in the safety chain. For a most recent example (one of many) and certainly not the last just look at the MK Airline accident... I realize it is a business but shame on any industry for putting crew costs ahead of human costs... My two cents.. Be safe out there guys/gals.
On the subject: What has changed in Aviation to make 14 hour/3 man operations any safer than when your flight time limitations were first introduced? Has this change, directly affecting safety, been implemented simply due to greed?.. There have been volumes written concerning pilot fatigue and yet duty times are ever increasing in our industry because there is always some other airline that does it longer or with less crew. All I can say is comparing Apples to Oranges (comparing individual rules versus the sum of another airlines' operating rules ie. "Cherry Picking") will get you no where and manning levels are your last link in the safety chain. For a most recent example (one of many) and certainly not the last just look at the MK Airline accident... I realize it is a business but shame on any industry for putting crew costs ahead of human costs... My two cents.. Be safe out there guys/gals.
Last edited by Cowboy One Arrival; 12th Nov 2007 at 05:15.
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Brilliant Idea from the GMA until someone goes sick at an outport, suddenly only 2 crew members to fly home...flight cancelled hundreds of hotel rooms, jets in the wrong place, knock on effects will cost the idiots more than they save. Crew members fatigued , sick rates escalate etc etc
Then the directors will come after more than the KA GMO, bye bye Phil
Then the directors will come after more than the KA GMO, bye bye Phil
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3 man crew=controlled rest
Dont forget that we now have "controlled rest" to cope with being completely shattered in flight. i.e. Its now ok by Cathay if we fall asleep hanging in our straps, on duty, on the flight deck. That will take the pain away and now they've put it in our manuals too.
How thoughtful because it will open the door to 3 man crews since you'll need less rest off the flight deck having snored away across continents for hours already. That cant be unsafe surely? I reckon it should be re-named "un-controlled rest".
Do our passengers know about this?
How thoughtful because it will open the door to 3 man crews since you'll need less rest off the flight deck having snored away across continents for hours already. That cant be unsafe surely? I reckon it should be re-named "un-controlled rest".
Do our passengers know about this?
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At the risk of repeating myself...
Never having had the need to use 5-4-3, I had no idea what protection it gave. Now I do 3 east-west ULH trips per month, sometimes with only 3 days between each one. When that happens, the cumulative fatigue is palpable.
The 2 problems with 3-man ULH are:
BB
Never having had the need to use 5-4-3, I had no idea what protection it gave. Now I do 3 east-west ULH trips per month, sometimes with only 3 days between each one. When that happens, the cumulative fatigue is palpable.
The 2 problems with 3-man ULH are:
a. Crew fatigue.
b. A lack of contingency.
I cannot help thinking that the 2 are inter-related. Three-man ULH will lead to an increase in crew sickness which will deny the ability to operate under those conditions. If we are going to go down this road, especially east-west, we need a major relaxation in AFTLs which may offset the benefit gained by reducing the flight deck crew.b. A lack of contingency.
BB
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Interesting how the Hong Kong Pilots have the AFTL limits increased and the UK Pilots on which the CAP 371 is based on will remain at the tried and tested values, however I guess the UK CAD is not "nobled" by British Airways and BA has enough crew to man the task.
Must say it always smelt a bit when taking CAD inspectors to Australia to hunt for property and get a free ride in J class on the flimsy pretext of an inspection.
Funny, never had them on a Delhi flight.
Must say it always smelt a bit when taking CAD inspectors to Australia to hunt for property and get a free ride in J class on the flimsy pretext of an inspection.
Funny, never had them on a Delhi flight.
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Who were the pilot reps
My immediate reaction to the original post is Who were the pilot reps ?
Probably management pilots who never do ULH . So of course they are going to approve the 14 hours 3 man ULH . If they were AOA delegates they need some re- education and I don't care how it is administered . What is the AOA doing ? . They should be protesting this, but I haven't heard a word yet.
If this is allowed in people will leave in large masses This really is the thin end of the wedge . The fatigue factor will be huge, me thinks that the sickness rate will go through the roof. So where are the savings?
Probably management pilots who never do ULH . So of course they are going to approve the 14 hours 3 man ULH . If they were AOA delegates they need some re- education and I don't care how it is administered . What is the AOA doing ? . They should be protesting this, but I haven't heard a word yet.
If this is allowed in people will leave in large masses This really is the thin end of the wedge . The fatigue factor will be huge, me thinks that the sickness rate will go through the roof. So where are the savings?
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ernestgann
A mate of mine who has flown both CX and EK said we have similar FTLs. Cx would roster the same thing. If the sector time is greater than 9 hrs not in your WOCL then you get a 3rd pilot. If you land at 630L SYD that is 2330DXB time and if flight time is less than 9 hrs then you would only get 2 crew if CX rostered it.
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Stop complaining
Air NZ also operate 3 man ULH on some sectors, but it then increases their rest requirements at the outport. Air France do the same.
Incidently, we need to take on board the planned company expansion. They do not have enough crews right now as it is. It is very obvious that to move forward the company will require 3 man ULH, age 65, and an increase in monthly hours before overtime.
Read your latest HKAOA newsletter, and take on board what they are saying. Do not answer your phone on G days. Do not agree to working on G days. And if you end up fatigued as a result of taking reduced rest or extended flight patterns then you are legally obligated to call in sick and contact an AVMED. There is no excuse for finding yourself working as a result of answering the phone on your day off, and if you do then you have no right to be complaining about pay, conditions or anything else !!!
This is serious stuff. As a result of the crew shortages they now have to bend the rules to crew the aircraft, and they are relying on your help. Your conditions are now being further eroded, as a result of you helping them out !!! Stand up for yourselves and make a difference.
Incidently, we need to take on board the planned company expansion. They do not have enough crews right now as it is. It is very obvious that to move forward the company will require 3 man ULH, age 65, and an increase in monthly hours before overtime.
Read your latest HKAOA newsletter, and take on board what they are saying. Do not answer your phone on G days. Do not agree to working on G days. And if you end up fatigued as a result of taking reduced rest or extended flight patterns then you are legally obligated to call in sick and contact an AVMED. There is no excuse for finding yourself working as a result of answering the phone on your day off, and if you do then you have no right to be complaining about pay, conditions or anything else !!!
This is serious stuff. As a result of the crew shortages they now have to bend the rules to crew the aircraft, and they are relying on your help. Your conditions are now being further eroded, as a result of you helping them out !!! Stand up for yourselves and make a difference.