DEFO / HK "housing allowance"
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DEFO / HK "housing allowance"
DEFO / HK "housing allowance"
hi all
1) at the moment is it possible to join CX as a DEFO and be based in HK and qualify / receive a "housing allowance" ?
2) any thoughts on how long it would take to get command at CX
thanks for the help
fly safe
hi all
1) at the moment is it possible to join CX as a DEFO and be based in HK and qualify / receive a "housing allowance" ?
2) any thoughts on how long it would take to get command at CX
thanks for the help
fly safe
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NO!
Only as a Second Officer. As a DEFO you are based a minimum of 4 years outside of Hong Kong then you can come to HK and get the full housing allowance.
However you could get a Hong Kong roster, but no housing allowance.
Only as a Second Officer. As a DEFO you are based a minimum of 4 years outside of Hong Kong then you can come to HK and get the full housing allowance.
However you could get a Hong Kong roster, but no housing allowance.
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Time to Command
Time to a freighter Command is about 2 years if you are American, trust the training system and want to put up with awful rosters for 17 years prior to seeing a Pax Command (see below).
What I assume you are asking about is time to a Pax Command.
Well, CX is enjoying a period of "aggressive growth", as described by GMA.
(Though if this is aggressive growth, we are going to run out of superlatives for the likes of Air China, Qantas, Emirates, Singapore and Etihad).
Anyway, the DFO states 90 new Commands during next year's "aggressive growth". Of this quite a few will be sub standard freighter commands. This will be offset by some conversions of guys who have done their time as Freighter Captains and achieve first time Passenger Command - which is what we are all after.
Lets be generous and say this adds up to 80 new Passenger Commands in 2008.
Join tomorrow and you will find 1500 people ahead of you for a Pax Command. 19Y @ 80 = 1520 Commands.
Let's just hope this period of "aggressive growth" is maintained.
If you are thinking of joining CX today and expecting to do less than 15 years to a proper Command, you need your head examined.
In the mean time, do not expect your compensation to keep up with inflation.
Milly
What I assume you are asking about is time to a Pax Command.
Well, CX is enjoying a period of "aggressive growth", as described by GMA.
(Though if this is aggressive growth, we are going to run out of superlatives for the likes of Air China, Qantas, Emirates, Singapore and Etihad).
Anyway, the DFO states 90 new Commands during next year's "aggressive growth". Of this quite a few will be sub standard freighter commands. This will be offset by some conversions of guys who have done their time as Freighter Captains and achieve first time Passenger Command - which is what we are all after.
Lets be generous and say this adds up to 80 new Passenger Commands in 2008.
Join tomorrow and you will find 1500 people ahead of you for a Pax Command. 19Y @ 80 = 1520 Commands.
Let's just hope this period of "aggressive growth" is maintained.
If you are thinking of joining CX today and expecting to do less than 15 years to a proper Command, you need your head examined.
In the mean time, do not expect your compensation to keep up with inflation.
Milly
Last edited by Millstream; 27th Oct 2007 at 11:04. Reason: Clarity
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new crew
1) not at the moment but once current SOs have been upgraded or been assessed as not upgradeable, then DEFOs will be hired in HKG. Best guess would be at least 3 years so say 2011 onwards. It would be on full expatriate terms. Until 1997 CX used to recruit SOs and FOs into HKG so it will go back to being, experienced guys join as DEFOs and less experienced guys join as SOs, but your seniority is still DoJ!
2) how long is a piece of string? We had 102 aircraft end of 2006 and we will have 120 at end of 2008. Beyond that we have 17 a/c ordered and are returning 13, so 4 more confirmed. If we keep the same growth rate we have had for the last 5 years, you would get your command around 2020-2022 and we will have around 258 a/c. This depends on how many work till 65. Survey data from BALPA (they recently introduced RA65) indicates working until 62-63 as an average. If that average age is realised, time to command will be a year quicker, so use 13 years as a minimum.
As far as the disparity between freigther and pax command is concerned, that differential will disappear. It has been false economy paying freighter pay for commands for 3 reasons.
- more junior FOs take the slots leaving more senior, higher earning FOs as FOs
- freighter captains earn more money over a career as they are always 3-4 increments ahead of their pax peers when their peers finally become captains
- there is a huge training burden in transferring pilots across fleets when their freighter commitment is completed.
The continual shortfall of freighter captains is testament to systemic mispricing resulting in manning issues. It is only a matter of time before the bean counters work out that it makes more sense to have the same salary for both commands. When that happens, time to command will be the same for both fleets.
The growth rate in the 90s was anemic compared to recent times. The prediction of 14(or 13) years depends on no major economic setbacks such as the asian contagion or 9-11.
2) how long is a piece of string? We had 102 aircraft end of 2006 and we will have 120 at end of 2008. Beyond that we have 17 a/c ordered and are returning 13, so 4 more confirmed. If we keep the same growth rate we have had for the last 5 years, you would get your command around 2020-2022 and we will have around 258 a/c. This depends on how many work till 65. Survey data from BALPA (they recently introduced RA65) indicates working until 62-63 as an average. If that average age is realised, time to command will be a year quicker, so use 13 years as a minimum.
As far as the disparity between freigther and pax command is concerned, that differential will disappear. It has been false economy paying freighter pay for commands for 3 reasons.
- more junior FOs take the slots leaving more senior, higher earning FOs as FOs
- freighter captains earn more money over a career as they are always 3-4 increments ahead of their pax peers when their peers finally become captains
- there is a huge training burden in transferring pilots across fleets when their freighter commitment is completed.
The continual shortfall of freighter captains is testament to systemic mispricing resulting in manning issues. It is only a matter of time before the bean counters work out that it makes more sense to have the same salary for both commands. When that happens, time to command will be the same for both fleets.
The growth rate in the 90s was anemic compared to recent times. The prediction of 14(or 13) years depends on no major economic setbacks such as the asian contagion or 9-11.
Last edited by Numero Crunchero; 27th Oct 2007 at 14:02.
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Millstream:
Perhaps you could expand on your comment above: "Of this quite a few will be sub standard freighter commands.""
I certainly don't want to misinterpret a tongue in cheek remark and make a rude remark back to you that I might later regret.
Cheers,
Penske
(sub standard Frt guy)
Perhaps you could expand on your comment above: "Of this quite a few will be sub standard freighter commands.""
I certainly don't want to misinterpret a tongue in cheek remark and make a rude remark back to you that I might later regret.
Cheers,
Penske
(sub standard Frt guy)
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Sub Standard Compensation
Hi Penske
Nothing sub standard about CX's frieghter pilots. (Quite the opposite)
It is their compensation, rostering and the way CX treat them that is sub standard.
Apologies if you thought otherwise.
Milly
Nothing sub standard about CX's frieghter pilots. (Quite the opposite)
It is their compensation, rostering and the way CX treat them that is sub standard.
Apologies if you thought otherwise.
Milly
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thanks to all those who replied
well it seems at least >10 years to command and no DEFO in HK
one more thing......can anybody please give me some info regarding "bypass pay" and if new joiners ie post 1/1/2008 will be subject to it?
thanks
fly safe
well it seems at least >10 years to command and no DEFO in HK
one more thing......can anybody please give me some info regarding "bypass pay" and if new joiners ie post 1/1/2008 will be subject to it?
thanks
fly safe
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If we keep the same growth rate we have had for the last 5 years, you would get your command around 2020-2022 and we will have around 258 a/c.
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new crew - bobrun
loop de loop is correct. Only for extensions beyond 65(thats a scary thought)!
Time to command - well it depends on growth rate, % that extend beyond 55 etc. CX growth rate has fluctuated a lot over the last 17 years from 0 -17.2%. The average over that 17 year period is the same as the growth rate since 2001 which was 6.4%. The growth rate of the mid 90s (7 years) was 2.7% - so there is a lot of variation.
Command time and a/c numbers.
Using long term average - 13-15 years and 258 a/c at end of 2020.
Using 90s growth rate of 2.7% - 20-22 years and 176 a/c at end of 2020.
Using 10.2% growth rate - 10-12 years and 381 a/c at end of 2020.
At 10.2% growth rate command time would be the same with RA65 as it was with RA55 and 6.35% growth rate.
Now how many a/c in 2020 is realistic: 176, 258 or 381?
Time to command - well it depends on growth rate, % that extend beyond 55 etc. CX growth rate has fluctuated a lot over the last 17 years from 0 -17.2%. The average over that 17 year period is the same as the growth rate since 2001 which was 6.4%. The growth rate of the mid 90s (7 years) was 2.7% - so there is a lot of variation.
Command time and a/c numbers.
Using long term average - 13-15 years and 258 a/c at end of 2020.
Using 90s growth rate of 2.7% - 20-22 years and 176 a/c at end of 2020.
Using 10.2% growth rate - 10-12 years and 381 a/c at end of 2020.
At 10.2% growth rate command time would be the same with RA65 as it was with RA55 and 6.35% growth rate.
Now how many a/c in 2020 is realistic: 176, 258 or 381?
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Deferred commands
Its interesting that pilots would defer command. Lets assume that 9 year veterans are remaining on, or taking a base at say SFO 1 rather than do a HKG based command. At current exchange rates, these FOs are earning between 6-15% less than a HKG based captain. However, if he waits on the base and gains seniority to get a based command, he will be on 20-29% more than hkg based captains.
So I guess it is a case of a certain basing now, with a little less money with maybe much more money to make up for delayed command, later!
So I guess it is a case of a certain basing now, with a little less money with maybe much more money to make up for delayed command, later!
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The figures are similar for Europe, I make it about 12% at todays exchange rate, assuming the Hkg capt gets 13th month but excluding housing. Many of those choosing to remain on a base are doing it for the sake of their children, and when you take into consideration the cost of schooling in Hkg (the company don't pay anything like the % of schooling costs that they'd have you believe) then the earnings differential swings even further towards those choosing to stay on or take a base.
These figures when combined with the likelyhood of not having the option of going on a base until you're a very senior captain would neem to make deferring your command on a base seem like a good option for many.
I'm lucky in that I like both Europe and Hkg and am fairly happy living in either country but I'd hate to be in the position af wanting to go home but not having the option to do so for another 5 years or more. Of course the desperate could apply for a freighter command but then you'd be spending more time away from home than you'd be spending in it anyway, so that doesn't look like a particularly tasty option either!
I'm sure I'm not the only person to have counted the number of available basings vs the number of requests, and once the slack has been taken up by DEFO's, I'd predict that most of the bases will be full before the next bidding period. So the company gets what they want (full bases) but have they looked into the unintended consequences?
Probably not.
These figures when combined with the likelyhood of not having the option of going on a base until you're a very senior captain would neem to make deferring your command on a base seem like a good option for many.
I'm lucky in that I like both Europe and Hkg and am fairly happy living in either country but I'd hate to be in the position af wanting to go home but not having the option to do so for another 5 years or more. Of course the desperate could apply for a freighter command but then you'd be spending more time away from home than you'd be spending in it anyway, so that doesn't look like a particularly tasty option either!
I'm sure I'm not the only person to have counted the number of available basings vs the number of requests, and once the slack has been taken up by DEFO's, I'd predict that most of the bases will be full before the next bidding period. So the company gets what they want (full bases) but have they looked into the unintended consequences?
Probably not.
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Direct entry
Or...get a DEFO job with Dragon Air, rapid rise to command as all the Captains are leaving and when the s#$t hits the fan there, Cathay will be forced to step in and assume command. Cathay will reintroduce Dragon Air pilots on the CX seniority list, all be it at the bottom, but you will have your command and be employed by CX. There will be cross crew flying of KA aircraft to make sure the media doesnt get wind of crewing problems and we all know, if the media doesnt know, then there is NO problem!!
Sounds easy doesnt it???
Sounds easy doesnt it???
