Crew Shortage
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't believe everything you hear!
Good evening,
Crew Control will not, and cannot, force you to undertake a duty that is illegal. What they will do, is ask you to undertake a duty, and if you accept it, you are now accepting the responsibility of whether it is in fact legal. If it is not, and there is an incident, you are the one that is liable.
Of course, there may instances where it simply involves different interpretations of a rule. In that case. just submit a CHIRP to Corporate Safety so it is on file.
The best thing to do if you have any concerns is state to the controller, "Is this duty legal". Remember the date and time of the call. The conversation is always recorded on tape and it now makes the controller accountable. If there is any question of legality at all, they will state they will call you back.
I speak from experience.
Regards.
Crew Control will not, and cannot, force you to undertake a duty that is illegal. What they will do, is ask you to undertake a duty, and if you accept it, you are now accepting the responsibility of whether it is in fact legal. If it is not, and there is an incident, you are the one that is liable.
Of course, there may instances where it simply involves different interpretations of a rule. In that case. just submit a CHIRP to Corporate Safety so it is on file.
The best thing to do if you have any concerns is state to the controller, "Is this duty legal". Remember the date and time of the call. The conversation is always recorded on tape and it now makes the controller accountable. If there is any question of legality at all, they will state they will call you back.
I speak from experience.
Regards.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: WestCoast
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the case where the rostering department is asking for something that is NOT illegal, and it is to a pilot's personal advantage (for example, asking a pilot to fly to his LHR where he's originally from). Seems like that it is something that's frown upon by other fellow pilot. Is this a common situation? How do you gents and ladies handle it? Sounds like this will be a sensitive issue.
Also, what is O day and G days? I sincerely hope that they are simply non-flying days and is not requested holidays. Otherwise it seems quite senseless to request for crew to fly on their personal time.
Also, what is O day and G days? I sincerely hope that they are simply non-flying days and is not requested holidays. Otherwise it seems quite senseless to request for crew to fly on their personal time.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: .
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The best thing to do if you have any concerns is state to the controller, "Is this duty legal".
DON'T ANSWER THE PHONE
followed closely by...
DON'T WORK ON G DAYS
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: home
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Legality is open to interpretation and it’s OUR interpretation that counts, not yours. If you do not accept a duty that we believe is legal, it will be put down as a missed duty and you will bear the consequences. Try it; we are looking to make an example out of someone.
Most pilots are unsure about the AFTL’s and it is very easy to persuade someone when they are unsure. Very few pilots have the nerve for confrontation whether it is legal or not.
The recording of crew control is their for OUR protection, not yours. If it can be used against us, the tapes will be misplaced. We have done this before
As I have said, CHIRP reports stop at corporate safety and go no further. If there is an incident, certain reports will disappear. Not many will have the courage to write a CHIRP. There is no such thing as confidentiality in The Cathay Pacific Group and the pilots know this.
We have built in accountability blocks to protect the people that need be. Yes the crew controller will be considered acting on his or her own (not on behest of the company) and will bear the accountability if there is an accident or incident however minor it may be, very similar to your own Commanders Discretion. Discretion is there to bear all the responsibility to the pilot and shield the company.
Our GMA is very good at keeping the CAD in the dark on our AFTL’s and our Rostering Practices. As far as the CAD is concerned in most cases, they will turn a blind eye.
As I have said before, You will do what you are told. You have no protection from your AOA and you know it, the AOA know it, and of course we know it. We will do what we want.
Most think the CAD have to power to make us change, nothing can be further from the truth.
In some cases the CAD is oblivious to what is actually happening, which means the GMA is doing a very good job.
Here is to my bonus.
The Management
Most pilots are unsure about the AFTL’s and it is very easy to persuade someone when they are unsure. Very few pilots have the nerve for confrontation whether it is legal or not.
The recording of crew control is their for OUR protection, not yours. If it can be used against us, the tapes will be misplaced. We have done this before
As I have said, CHIRP reports stop at corporate safety and go no further. If there is an incident, certain reports will disappear. Not many will have the courage to write a CHIRP. There is no such thing as confidentiality in The Cathay Pacific Group and the pilots know this.
We have built in accountability blocks to protect the people that need be. Yes the crew controller will be considered acting on his or her own (not on behest of the company) and will bear the accountability if there is an accident or incident however minor it may be, very similar to your own Commanders Discretion. Discretion is there to bear all the responsibility to the pilot and shield the company.
Our GMA is very good at keeping the CAD in the dark on our AFTL’s and our Rostering Practices. As far as the CAD is concerned in most cases, they will turn a blind eye.
As I have said before, You will do what you are told. You have no protection from your AOA and you know it, the AOA know it, and of course we know it. We will do what we want.
Most think the CAD have to power to make us change, nothing can be further from the truth.
In some cases the CAD is oblivious to what is actually happening, which means the GMA is doing a very good job.
Here is to my bonus.
The Management
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Mostly in a hotel
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Recorded or not
Westcoastcapt
The very best thing is for you to call CC back. CC have called from a non-recorded phone, a technique used when their request might be bending the AFTLS. That way your conversation is not recorded.
Bottom line, if YOU want something on file, hang up and call them back.
cider30
The best thing to do if you have any concerns is state to the controller, "Is this duty legal". Remember the date and time of the call. The conversation is always recorded on tape and it now makes the controller accountable. If there is any question of legality at all, they will state they will call you back.
Bottom line, if YOU want something on file, hang up and call them back.
cider30
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.....or record the 'phone call yourself. Most mobile 'phones have a record function once a call is in progress. They only have a mobile number for me and I record all calls from cc for my own protection.
I understand and agree with don't answer the 'phone and don't work on G days but sometimes it's unavoidable so either record the call or say "yes, happy to help out if it's legal, please fax me the details" They won't put it in black and white unless it's legal.
I understand and agree with don't answer the 'phone and don't work on G days but sometimes it's unavoidable so either record the call or say "yes, happy to help out if it's legal, please fax me the details" They won't put it in black and white unless it's legal.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: .
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I understand and agree with don't answer the 'phone and don't work on G days but sometimes it's unavoidable
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: brisbane
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When is the AOA going to formalise some sort of action against CX?
Not answering phones and not working on GDOs is a start, but it needs to be formally endorsed by the only union representation you guys have, whether you are members or not.
Otherwise, as the crewing situation begins to deteriorate you will end up with the living hell of KA - no stability and no life.
Not answering phones and not working on GDOs is a start, but it needs to be formally endorsed by the only union representation you guys have, whether you are members or not.
Otherwise, as the crewing situation begins to deteriorate you will end up with the living hell of KA - no stability and no life.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: home
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The AOA Leadership know better. If you start any kind of industrial action, we will sacrifice some members of the HKAOA. It is that simple.
We have the biggest stick and you know very well we will use it without hesitation. We have told your AOA what we will do, privately of course. Very simple to find a reason to have some terminated.
Not working in the best interest of The Cathay Pacific Group ie. Not working on a G day, not flying the freighter, difficult to be contactable, not using discretion to name a few.
If some would like to take action, your army of one as some of you like to say, you do so at your own risk. You have be warned. The HKAOA, CAD or the Hong Kong Labor Board will not protect you. We do what we want.
So your AOA is being quiet for a reason, The Cathay Pacific Group told them so.
Cathay Pacific will never be short of crews, we offer one of the best packages in Asia and the new COS 08 will be better for new hires on a base. We have many applications to join The Cathay Pacific Group and have the Training Team in place to train these new hires, thanks to COS 08.
The Cathay Pacific Division of The Cathay Pacific Group will never be allowed to deteriorate to the state of The Dragonair Division. We would have terminated contracts well before it deteriorated so badly.
We have seconded our team to The Dragonair Division to sort out the crewing problem, it not actually a crewing problem, it's a discipline problem that the Managers of The Dragonair Division allowed to spiral out of control. We will have control of the pilots in the very near future.
We don't mind starting over with The Dragonair Division and then build it with an Industrial Disciplined workforce. It is small enough to do, we will wait and see. The main part is we have The Dragonair Divisions AOC which is what we need. It is very easy to turn The Dragonair Division into Cxpress and The Cathay Pacific Division will take over all other flying . We will wet lease The Cathay Pacific Divisions aircraft to continue the flying. It is something that is being looked at. It's all about long term business solutions, sometimes we will have to endure short term pain.
Please formalize Industrial Action, you have been warned.
To my bonus, COS 08 will do very nicely for my bonus.
The Management
We have the biggest stick and you know very well we will use it without hesitation. We have told your AOA what we will do, privately of course. Very simple to find a reason to have some terminated.
Not working in the best interest of The Cathay Pacific Group ie. Not working on a G day, not flying the freighter, difficult to be contactable, not using discretion to name a few.
If some would like to take action, your army of one as some of you like to say, you do so at your own risk. You have be warned. The HKAOA, CAD or the Hong Kong Labor Board will not protect you. We do what we want.
So your AOA is being quiet for a reason, The Cathay Pacific Group told them so.
Cathay Pacific will never be short of crews, we offer one of the best packages in Asia and the new COS 08 will be better for new hires on a base. We have many applications to join The Cathay Pacific Group and have the Training Team in place to train these new hires, thanks to COS 08.
The Cathay Pacific Division of The Cathay Pacific Group will never be allowed to deteriorate to the state of The Dragonair Division. We would have terminated contracts well before it deteriorated so badly.
We have seconded our team to The Dragonair Division to sort out the crewing problem, it not actually a crewing problem, it's a discipline problem that the Managers of The Dragonair Division allowed to spiral out of control. We will have control of the pilots in the very near future.
We don't mind starting over with The Dragonair Division and then build it with an Industrial Disciplined workforce. It is small enough to do, we will wait and see. The main part is we have The Dragonair Divisions AOC which is what we need. It is very easy to turn The Dragonair Division into Cxpress and The Cathay Pacific Division will take over all other flying . We will wet lease The Cathay Pacific Divisions aircraft to continue the flying. It is something that is being looked at. It's all about long term business solutions, sometimes we will have to endure short term pain.
Please formalize Industrial Action, you have been warned.
To my bonus, COS 08 will do very nicely for my bonus.
The Management
Crew Shortage
At the risk of causing The Management to break into a smile, I have to say we should treat his words with some respect - whoever he/she is. Those of us who have been here a long time have seen this 'Management attitude' bear fruit for Cathay. What attitude? Try this:-
Stop even trying to be the 'friend' of aircrew. They are spineless and self-interested. They do not have a common cause and fight amongst themselves at the slightest opportunity. They threaten constantly and don't do anything. When alone and forced to stand up against huge commercial pressure (ie to extend a FDP) they inevitably fold. They will do as they are told. WE interpret the rules and we control the AOA and CAD so where's the fight coming from?? WE have an airline to run and will do so with the best aircraft and the cheapest crews.So what if the odd moron goes elsewhere - SO WHAT!! There are many more just waiting in the wings.
Now - dear Fleet Manager - any other points?
Ring a bell?
Stop even trying to be the 'friend' of aircrew. They are spineless and self-interested. They do not have a common cause and fight amongst themselves at the slightest opportunity. They threaten constantly and don't do anything. When alone and forced to stand up against huge commercial pressure (ie to extend a FDP) they inevitably fold. They will do as they are told. WE interpret the rules and we control the AOA and CAD so where's the fight coming from?? WE have an airline to run and will do so with the best aircraft and the cheapest crews.So what if the odd moron goes elsewhere - SO WHAT!! There are many more just waiting in the wings.
Now - dear Fleet Manager - any other points?
Ring a bell?
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: York International
Posts: 677
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who has 200?
And Then, can't think of many who have had 100 let alone 200hrs before leaving. The Oasis requirement is to have done just three take-offs and landings on the -400!
I would agree that similar problems for CX cannot be far behind the KA exodus. If CX are smart, and they are, then RH has to learn pretty quick how to stop the rot. He might just be in time.
KA can patently not man the 744, and flight cancellations on the 'bus are increasing. Hundreds of million of dollars worth of jets are being parked up, this has been hidden from the new masters and heads are just starting to roll. CX didn't keep a close eye on its new investment and is regretting it.
Likely outcomes include the 744s painted green and the freighter pilots offered joining CX at the bottom along with ASL or transfer to the 'bus. Boeing managers will be re-typed back onto the 'bus and told to get out there and fly. Numbers of Airbus managers will be reduced and they will go fly too.
No plan will work unless rostering and pay is seriously addressed.
I would agree that similar problems for CX cannot be far behind the KA exodus. If CX are smart, and they are, then RH has to learn pretty quick how to stop the rot. He might just be in time.
KA can patently not man the 744, and flight cancellations on the 'bus are increasing. Hundreds of million of dollars worth of jets are being parked up, this has been hidden from the new masters and heads are just starting to roll. CX didn't keep a close eye on its new investment and is regretting it.
Likely outcomes include the 744s painted green and the freighter pilots offered joining CX at the bottom along with ASL or transfer to the 'bus. Boeing managers will be re-typed back onto the 'bus and told to get out there and fly. Numbers of Airbus managers will be reduced and they will go fly too.
No plan will work unless rostering and pay is seriously addressed.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FO/SOs leaving
Last I checked there were 25 gaps on the seniority list at FO/SO level. This would indicate only those that have left since the last Seniority List update, not any that have currently given notice to leave but still employed by CX.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong K ong
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CX KA White Tailed B744F
Just heard from a reliable source that a remodeled B744F due back shortly from Xiamen has painting problem! 
They don't know what colour to paint it. It was originally due for KA. But they cannot crew it. So it was offered to CX who also turned it down saying they cannot crew it.
The end result is they are going to paint it white & lease it out another carrier..
Well down PW at CX & the boys at KA.. No wonder Cargo is behind on estimates. .
Simple solution, get out your cheque book boys!
Sorry I forgot that's not the 'Swire way'. Rather bleed millions lost in revenue & milk those pilots
Sir Adrian - Can we please have your authorisation to sort out some of these issues.
When you have time old boy it’s not that urgent at the moment.
They don't know what colour to paint it. It was originally due for KA. But they cannot crew it. So it was offered to CX who also turned it down saying they cannot crew it.
The end result is they are going to paint it white & lease it out another carrier..
Well down PW at CX & the boys at KA.. No wonder Cargo is behind on estimates. .
Simple solution, get out your cheque book boys!
Sorry I forgot that's not the 'Swire way'. Rather bleed millions lost in revenue & milk those pilots
Sir Adrian - Can we please have your authorisation to sort out some of these issues.
When you have time old boy it’s not that urgent at the moment.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sir Adrian was known as a straight talker who could communicate on the level with his pilot staff. Perhaps he should come out for a chat with the boys - on expenses of course.
He makes the present incumbants look amateurish in comparison.
He makes the present incumbants look amateurish in comparison.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like he did in 1999 and 2001 old boy?
Furthermore,
If you have a problem with Crew Control about the legality of the roster i.e. Reduction of rest, FDP periods with 3 pilots on ULH ops, Discretion, etc. Then an ASR/MOR should be filed.
In the case of reduced physiological rest to normal rest, is CX informing the CAD of this in accordance with the AFTL's (section 22.5 note 5) read it? Are the pilots filing ASR/MOR's informing the CAD? Are you faxing copies to the CAD of your ASR/MOR?
Here are the fax numbers:
Flight Operations Office: 2362 4250
Flight Standards and Airworthiness Division 2382 4577
If the answer is no, then you have no right to complain. Don't complain to the AOA that something should be done about this if you are not willing to put pen to paper and defend yourself.
Very simple, state the facts on a hazard report, collect names, times and dates. Tick the box on the bottom to send it in as a MOR.
Somehow, I think that fear thingy will rear its ugly head.
Sad really.
Furthermore,
If you have a problem with Crew Control about the legality of the roster i.e. Reduction of rest, FDP periods with 3 pilots on ULH ops, Discretion, etc. Then an ASR/MOR should be filed.
In the case of reduced physiological rest to normal rest, is CX informing the CAD of this in accordance with the AFTL's (section 22.5 note 5) read it? Are the pilots filing ASR/MOR's informing the CAD? Are you faxing copies to the CAD of your ASR/MOR?
Here are the fax numbers:
Flight Operations Office: 2362 4250
Flight Standards and Airworthiness Division 2382 4577
If the answer is no, then you have no right to complain. Don't complain to the AOA that something should be done about this if you are not willing to put pen to paper and defend yourself.
Very simple, state the facts on a hazard report, collect names, times and dates. Tick the box on the bottom to send it in as a MOR.
Somehow, I think that fear thingy will rear its ugly head.
Sad really.
Last edited by Mr. Bloggs; 7th Nov 2007 at 09:37.