After the Emirates Brief, A perspective.
Joined: Oct 1998
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CX fell foul of UK revenue because they use the term 'base'. When the system was first set up to accommodate VETA, the company used KPMG to do the research and had a letter to say that what they were doing was acceptable and that responsibility for paying tax was down to each individual crew member. Many lived outside of the UK so the question of tax did not arise.
The revenue people had another look after the Crofts case and decided that CX was now an onshore company. If you are going to change the rules retrospectively, make sure you work for the government. CX protestations were met with "That was then. This is now." UK is now clearly 3rd world in its attitude to the rules. Like many areas of taxation, there is no law; only precedent. A judgement in court is required to make the precedent law. Hence CX fell into a grey hole.
Other companies allow their crews to have time off in Europe but do not nominate a base. On arrival in Europe the crew member is given a ticket to wherever he wants to go, (within reason, of course). I am surprised that CX did not follow this path; unless they did not want to rattle any cages. Opening bases in continental Europe will be interesting. I have just read that social costs for an employer in France are 48% of salary. Anyone know what the costs in other countries would be? I suspect that London will be the only European base, since social costs are only 12.5%.
Way forward is to make everyone HK based with a European biased roster, as do other companies. Save a fortune.
The revenue people had another look after the Crofts case and decided that CX was now an onshore company. If you are going to change the rules retrospectively, make sure you work for the government. CX protestations were met with "That was then. This is now." UK is now clearly 3rd world in its attitude to the rules. Like many areas of taxation, there is no law; only precedent. A judgement in court is required to make the precedent law. Hence CX fell into a grey hole.
Other companies allow their crews to have time off in Europe but do not nominate a base. On arrival in Europe the crew member is given a ticket to wherever he wants to go, (within reason, of course). I am surprised that CX did not follow this path; unless they did not want to rattle any cages. Opening bases in continental Europe will be interesting. I have just read that social costs for an employer in France are 48% of salary. Anyone know what the costs in other countries would be? I suspect that London will be the only European base, since social costs are only 12.5%.
Way forward is to make everyone HK based with a European biased roster, as do other companies. Save a fortune.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 651
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From: Hong Kong
Cant answer the recruiting question. If they thought 48 was too old they wouldn't recruit you.
Current projections for command are 12-14 years. So that would put you at 60+. As a new joiner you will have RA65 so now worries on that one.
Cathay will get you closer to home...if you can join as a DEFO you can pretty much stay in Oz until a hkg command comes up...but as I said, that will be around 60-62 if you are keen! If you don't get a DEFO position but joined in HKG you could commute but the salary for SO is pretty bad.
EK - much harder to commute adn much further. Time to command is 3-5 years and expected to be around the same for the foreseeable future.
SO if its command/money you want, EK. If its Australia you want, CX. I am assuming you considered all the aussie options J*, VB etc
Current projections for command are 12-14 years. So that would put you at 60+. As a new joiner you will have RA65 so now worries on that one.
Cathay will get you closer to home...if you can join as a DEFO you can pretty much stay in Oz until a hkg command comes up...but as I said, that will be around 60-62 if you are keen! If you don't get a DEFO position but joined in HKG you could commute but the salary for SO is pretty bad.
EK - much harder to commute adn much further. Time to command is 3-5 years and expected to be around the same for the foreseeable future.
SO if its command/money you want, EK. If its Australia you want, CX. I am assuming you considered all the aussie options J*, VB etc
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,117
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From: Hong Kong
If you are joining Cx for the bases...you have it wrong...not enough bases in OZ to allow you to be senior enough to take a base.
I think you will have a better chance to go to EK. When they cannot get enough pilots, they will have to offer commuting rosters.
I think you will have a better chance to go to EK. When they cannot get enough pilots, they will have to offer commuting rosters.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 242
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To the guys in poo harbour or those considering EK/CX.
Strong advice is that EK will not offer basings in the near future. Put a big X against EK Basings on your list of for/against when comparing the two airlines.
Ditto for commuting in EK.
May happen in the future (EK basings) but at the moment you'll find them somewhere beyond Pluto.
If they do happen, basings will either go to pilots already in EK or to new hires on poor conditions. Remember ASL. So it's not a drawcard at all.
EK does need a lot of pilots and if you're qualified you will get an interview. I suspect they will hire turboprop drivers before they increase the EK package or offer basings.
As for the rest of the gloss, a lot of it comes down to individual choice/needs.
Interesting comment about EK appealing to the newbie CX guy. I can understand looking at 5 vs 10 yrs to command and RA65 issues but in that case, why did the newbie go to CX in the first place?
Strong advice is that EK will not offer basings in the near future. Put a big X against EK Basings on your list of for/against when comparing the two airlines.
Ditto for commuting in EK.
May happen in the future (EK basings) but at the moment you'll find them somewhere beyond Pluto.
If they do happen, basings will either go to pilots already in EK or to new hires on poor conditions. Remember ASL. So it's not a drawcard at all.
EK does need a lot of pilots and if you're qualified you will get an interview. I suspect they will hire turboprop drivers before they increase the EK package or offer basings.
As for the rest of the gloss, a lot of it comes down to individual choice/needs.
Interesting comment about EK appealing to the newbie CX guy. I can understand looking at 5 vs 10 yrs to command and RA65 issues but in that case, why did the newbie go to CX in the first place?
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 129
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From: the fatigue curve
Interesting comment about EK appealing to the newbie CX guy. I can understand looking at 5 vs 10 yrs to command and RA65 issues but in that case, why did the newbie go to CX in the first place?
Simply, 2000 hours multi crew and multi jet is a little harder to get than some of the CX req'ts.
EK
Requirements for Position of First Officer - A330/A340 and B777
A minimum of 4,000 hours total flying time
A minimum of 2,000 hours multi-crew, multi-engined jet aircraft experience
ICAO ATPL
English language fluency (written and verbal comprehension)
Experience commensurate with age
Type rated would be advantageous
CX
All First Officer applicants must meet the following minimum requirements:
An ICAO Airline Transport Pilot's License (ATPL)
A minimum of 1000 hours in one of the following categories:
Airline Jet Transport
Command Turbo Prop (MAUW greater than 20,000 Kgs)
High Performance Military Jet
Corporate Jet Command
A current Class One Medical
Fluent spoken & written English
Experience commensurate with age
SO
All Second Officer applicants must meet the following minimum requirements:
1. An ICAO Airline Transport Pilot's License (ATPL) (obtained without exemptions) or ICAO Commercial Pilot's License (CPL) (obtained without exemptions) with passes in all ATPL ground examinations
2. A Valid Multi-Engine Instrument Rating
3. A minimum of 1000 hours fixed wing (preference will be given to applicants with turbine or multi-engine experience)
4. Experience commensurate with age
5. A current Class One Medical
6. Fluent spoken & written English
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,117
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From: Hong Kong
Just remember what the reason is for EK looking at 4000 hours...you will be in a left seat in 3 years, even sooner if you have left seat experience (12 -18 months)
At Cathay you will be in the left seat in 10-15 years if not more.
Having been to the road show , basically it boils down to where I would be happy living. It is not about bases as you ain't going to get one here at CX either.
The money is roughly the same...EK will be better than CX in no time (Market Forces)
Both are Managements are good at running an airline but crap at running staff.
In Dubai you have to live in a compound with another 1600 Pilots. Here in HKg we have major pollution.
The one thing that EK does have and that is a training bond. I believe that a lot of EK guys are leaving after the bond has expired.
so what NR is finding out is that even though he has the training book filled with suitably qualified Pilots, it is retaining them once they are really suitably qualified with a 777 endorsement...we would not have the problem in the freighter pool if the package and conditions were right.
At Cathay you will be in the left seat in 10-15 years if not more.
Having been to the road show , basically it boils down to where I would be happy living. It is not about bases as you ain't going to get one here at CX either.
The money is roughly the same...EK will be better than CX in no time (Market Forces)
Both are Managements are good at running an airline but crap at running staff.
In Dubai you have to live in a compound with another 1600 Pilots. Here in HKg we have major pollution.
The one thing that EK does have and that is a training bond. I believe that a lot of EK guys are leaving after the bond has expired.
so what NR is finding out is that even though he has the training book filled with suitably qualified Pilots, it is retaining them once they are really suitably qualified with a 777 endorsement...we would not have the problem in the freighter pool if the package and conditions were right.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,777
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From: uae
The training bond is 36 K US over 3 years not a big deal. If you are into the fast upgrade than 3 years goes by fast,but 1900 now would need 3800 ish to be on the top half (upgarde) at 4-500 per year = 5 years and dont count on excellerated only used in extreme casesand yes everyone knows someone that has just done the excellerated and there is still alot of guys that are pissed because of it. The Airbus right now is working on getting the backlog upgraded also 100 AB capt going to the B to make room for AB fo's to upgrade. Guys that have been here for 2 years should be upgrading by the end of 2008. I think it might of been ED that said only 8 Decs on the boeing from now until end of 08, over 250 upgrades on both fleets
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 242
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My comment about newbies in CX looking at Ek stems from an earlier comment that a move to EK would only be worthwhile for a newish pilot in CX. If a new pilot in CX were able to consider a move to Ek, you could reasonably asusme that he had or was close to qualifying for EK in the first place. Comprend?
EK pilots are spread all over Dubai and don't live in one big compound apart from Silicon Oasis. One v One, EK accommodation package is better than Hong Kong. Inidividual variations aside for those that invest, and there are self made millionaires in Dubai as well. I'm talking company house vs company house. Certainly wasn't 1600 pilots last time I looked out my window in Silicon.
Last year, EK probably had more resignations than the previous 5 put together, about 80. Nowhere near that this year. Most of them are well beyond their 3 years so the actual number leaving just after the bond expiry is probably around 1%. Again, no real substance to that rumour.
Apart from that, frogman sounds like he's got it right!
Thing is we're all hoping the other airline increases the anti to chase the elusive pilot, thereby improving our collective packages. So why is CX driving it down again?
EK pilots are spread all over Dubai and don't live in one big compound apart from Silicon Oasis. One v One, EK accommodation package is better than Hong Kong. Inidividual variations aside for those that invest, and there are self made millionaires in Dubai as well. I'm talking company house vs company house. Certainly wasn't 1600 pilots last time I looked out my window in Silicon.
Last year, EK probably had more resignations than the previous 5 put together, about 80. Nowhere near that this year. Most of them are well beyond their 3 years so the actual number leaving just after the bond expiry is probably around 1%. Again, no real substance to that rumour.
Apart from that, frogman sounds like he's got it right!
Thing is we're all hoping the other airline increases the anti to chase the elusive pilot, thereby improving our collective packages. So why is CX driving it down again?
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 651
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From: Hong Kong
Just numbers
Whether you want to join EK or CX for reasons other than money is something that cannot be quantified. What can be quantified is the take home pay in both places over time.
The following assumes ERP is paid(7.5% at the moment for UK/AUS/NZ). It assumes 16% tax paid by CX staff - given that education and home purchase allowance are taxable the final average rate is likely to be slightly above or below 16%.
I have assumed no cost of housing -ie CX staff use RFZ. I have not given any value to free utilities or limo pickup in DXB. I have not adjusted EK salary for lower PF (EK 12% for first 10 years then 15% - fully vested after 7 years vice CX at 10 years). I have not included 13th month in hkg -nor have I included EK profit share which has averaged more than a months share over last 5 years.
I have included the imposed 3% payrise for CX but NO payrise next May for EK(payrise every year for recent past).
12 years till command in CX and 5 years in EK. Same hours for both with no overtime for both.
Monthly after tax take home pay, HKD
year 1
CX 29,882 (SO 1)
EK 54,010
year 5
CX 59,258 (FO 1)
EK 60,002 (FO)
year 6
CX 60,209 (FO 2)
EK 82,532 (CN)
Year 10
CX 69,094 (SFO 2)
EK 91,880
Year 15
CX 98,760 (SCN 1)
EK 105,231
The following assumes ERP is paid(7.5% at the moment for UK/AUS/NZ). It assumes 16% tax paid by CX staff - given that education and home purchase allowance are taxable the final average rate is likely to be slightly above or below 16%.
I have assumed no cost of housing -ie CX staff use RFZ. I have not given any value to free utilities or limo pickup in DXB. I have not adjusted EK salary for lower PF (EK 12% for first 10 years then 15% - fully vested after 7 years vice CX at 10 years). I have not included 13th month in hkg -nor have I included EK profit share which has averaged more than a months share over last 5 years.
I have included the imposed 3% payrise for CX but NO payrise next May for EK(payrise every year for recent past).
12 years till command in CX and 5 years in EK. Same hours for both with no overtime for both.
Monthly after tax take home pay, HKD
year 1
CX 29,882 (SO 1)
EK 54,010
year 5
CX 59,258 (FO 1)
EK 60,002 (FO)
year 6
CX 60,209 (FO 2)
EK 82,532 (CN)
Year 10
CX 69,094 (SFO 2)
EK 91,880
Year 15
CX 98,760 (SCN 1)
EK 105,231
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3
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From: australia
Emirates Residency
At the Emirates Brief was any mention made of the new laws being put forward in UAE to limit ex-pat residency to six years to prevent the loss of the 'Local Identity'. I think it is primarily aimed at sub-continent construction workers but the new law will not be allowed to be that exclusive. Iam sure the airlines will get around it but was it mentioned at the brief?
