Oct 10th and the New AFTL's
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Oct 10th and the New AFTL's
Folks all I can say is we ALL need to write or call the CAD to express our concern over the new AFTL proposals. They will not be good. The payrise has been rescinded and we'll will be working harder. How about those 3 man ULH flights!!! This will be more important than ANY other issue as it will affect our time at work, rest and DDO's YES, OUR DAYS OFF. I urge everyone to get involved as this is not just an AOA, issue. It will affect ALL of us including our brothers at Dragonair also Hong Kong Airways/Express/Oasis and anyone else flying on HK register. You can call and ask for the proposals. The big meeting is OCT 10th at CAD!
This is really a serious safety issue and I'd like to ask for no flaming as this is a rather serious issue. I'd rather everyone reading this spend your time and efforts and writing/calling CAD.
This is really a serious safety issue and I'd like to ask for no flaming as this is a rather serious issue. I'd rather everyone reading this spend your time and efforts and writing/calling CAD.
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You really believe the CAD will listen to pilots. Hong Kong is BUSINESS run and if it will benefit business and Hong Kong as a whole, it will be put through. No employees will dictate business practices in Hong Kong as much as some may wish.
Safety takes a second seat, but we do preach safety first. Makes us look good.
It will only affect routes to Europe (flights under the 14-15 hours). Your North American brothers will not care if you fly those hours with 3 person crew. I will not debate the integrity of the pilot body as I have mentions this before. Well on second thought, why not. You are too busy back stabbing each other and some on their own individual agenda, you cannot be seen as a collective group. No one will fight as it is seen as sticking your head above the parapet and everyone lives in fear hoping that someone else will do the fighting for you. Ahh, never gets old does it.
To make one feel more secure, the CAD will be allowing in seat controlled naps which will help pilots with sleep. There are numerous studies and are available on the net for your pursual.
There are numerous airlines that do this to Hong Kong from European departures and return.
We have tracked the many times that Captains have used section 24.7 of the AFTL’s (which will allow duty times of 15 hours with 3 person crew back to Hong Kong). If this practice of 15 hours duty to Hong Kong, then it should not make any difference from Hong Kong. Our Freighter and passenger pilots already do this to Anchorage and to Auckland. Now we will just continue it to Europe.
We like to thank the many Captains that exercised this option as this has paved the way for the new 3 person ULH flights.
In this situation, the commander is only expected to use 2 hours of his discretion on the whole crew. We think the 2 hour limit will be enough to cover any delays.
You really think the pilots of other airlines will get involved, I think not. It’s just the way pilots are.
From the top of my bonus, I thank you.
The Management.
Safety takes a second seat, but we do preach safety first. Makes us look good.
It will only affect routes to Europe (flights under the 14-15 hours). Your North American brothers will not care if you fly those hours with 3 person crew. I will not debate the integrity of the pilot body as I have mentions this before. Well on second thought, why not. You are too busy back stabbing each other and some on their own individual agenda, you cannot be seen as a collective group. No one will fight as it is seen as sticking your head above the parapet and everyone lives in fear hoping that someone else will do the fighting for you. Ahh, never gets old does it.
To make one feel more secure, the CAD will be allowing in seat controlled naps which will help pilots with sleep. There are numerous studies and are available on the net for your pursual.
There are numerous airlines that do this to Hong Kong from European departures and return.
We have tracked the many times that Captains have used section 24.7 of the AFTL’s (which will allow duty times of 15 hours with 3 person crew back to Hong Kong). If this practice of 15 hours duty to Hong Kong, then it should not make any difference from Hong Kong. Our Freighter and passenger pilots already do this to Anchorage and to Auckland. Now we will just continue it to Europe.
We like to thank the many Captains that exercised this option as this has paved the way for the new 3 person ULH flights.
In this situation, the commander is only expected to use 2 hours of his discretion on the whole crew. We think the 2 hour limit will be enough to cover any delays.
You really think the pilots of other airlines will get involved, I think not. It’s just the way pilots are.
From the top of my bonus, I thank you.
The Management.
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Unfortunately, once again “The Management” is 100% right. Dam Management, at least give us some time to bluff ourselves here on the forum about how we will fight and conquer before you spoil it with the facts.
Thread closed, he said it….
Thread closed, he said it….
Ah, yes. The in seat rest. My last airline introduced this as it was allowed by the relevant aviation authority. The company said that 'cat napping' was allowed. On receipt of this information, I decided to observe my own cat and came to the conclusion that 'cat napping' involved sleeping on top of the central heating boiler for 21 hours out of 24!
But seriously, when it was introduced, from my own experience - three times in two months, both of us were woken from deep sleep by the 20/21/22 minute (Boeing) alarm. ASRs raised, but no interest from the relevant authority.
But seriously, when it was introduced, from my own experience - three times in two months, both of us were woken from deep sleep by the 20/21/22 minute (Boeing) alarm. ASRs raised, but no interest from the relevant authority.
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Just adding my 2 cents worth - as much as we would like to think that we are all playing on the same team with everyones interest at hand, "The Management" speaks words of truth.
Will we ever learn ?
Will we ever learn ?
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AFTLs? 10th October? What have I missed?
As a based guy, they can use me for 3 ULHs per calendar month back and forth to Honkers before overtime kicks in. Sometimes, maybe 50% of the time, I get 3 trips at the end of one month followed by 2 or 3 at the beginning of the next. My 3 days off in between is cut to 2 as I commute the day before, effectively making my roster 5 on and 2 off for 6 weeks.
The cumulative fatigue on the roster is palpable. I had no idea what 5-4-3 was when I joined - I do now. Moving now to 3-man ULH under our present rostering practices would be the first real time - not the jumpy-up-and-down-hissy-fit scenario - that I would be forced to seriously consider my future with the Company.
However, I notice that the thread has a thumbs down next to it. Is this for real or someone's attempt to further stir our already poor industrial relations up? Facts please.
P.S. I understand that other airlines might do 3-man ULH. In fairness, we might do the same but not with only 2 days off in between each one.
As a based guy, they can use me for 3 ULHs per calendar month back and forth to Honkers before overtime kicks in. Sometimes, maybe 50% of the time, I get 3 trips at the end of one month followed by 2 or 3 at the beginning of the next. My 3 days off in between is cut to 2 as I commute the day before, effectively making my roster 5 on and 2 off for 6 weeks.
The cumulative fatigue on the roster is palpable. I had no idea what 5-4-3 was when I joined - I do now. Moving now to 3-man ULH under our present rostering practices would be the first real time - not the jumpy-up-and-down-hissy-fit scenario - that I would be forced to seriously consider my future with the Company.
However, I notice that the thread has a thumbs down next to it. Is this for real or someone's attempt to further stir our already poor industrial relations up? Facts please.
P.S. I understand that other airlines might do 3-man ULH. In fairness, we might do the same but not with only 2 days off in between each one.
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You signed away your contractual right to 5-4-3 so I don’t want to hear any complaining about it. Cpdude will help get it back. 
Now you reap the consequences of your actions. When I think the pilot group can’t be more foolish, I get surprised again.
Go read some books on Aviation Industrial History before you vote.
Well I guess it is a done deal, may as well stick our head in the sand again.
When will we ever protect our contract?
Now you reap the consequences of your actions. When I think the pilot group can’t be more foolish, I get surprised again.
Go read some books on Aviation Industrial History before you vote.
Well I guess it is a done deal, may as well stick our head in the sand again.
When will we ever protect our contract?
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Yep. Once you lose(give away) something, you will NEVER get it back. And CX has a very short memory when it comes to grabbing things. Don't even think that CX would look on one aspect favourably just because you gave in on another. Get real!
It doesn't matter what other airlines do. CX look at that side of things ONLY when it suits them. We do our own thing and the definition of 'industry standard' differs somewhat depending on which side of the line you stand (or sit).
You have been screwed over on 5-4-3, productivity, exchange rates, payrises, harmonious workplace, training issues... and the list goes on. Just what aspects of your job has CX actually improved for you??????
You want to give more away?????
It doesn't matter what other airlines do. CX look at that side of things ONLY when it suits them. We do our own thing and the definition of 'industry standard' differs somewhat depending on which side of the line you stand (or sit).
You have been screwed over on 5-4-3, productivity, exchange rates, payrises, harmonious workplace, training issues... and the list goes on. Just what aspects of your job has CX actually improved for you??????
You want to give more away?????
Unfortunately, this is true....
I've heard it first hand from the GMA myself. I'm surprised that this is the only reference to it at present, as it certainly has been kept very quite.
The great man himself stated that our FTL's in Vol 1 are simply an interpretation of the original HKCAD document. Cathay is obviously bound by the limitations layed down by this CAD document.
So how does Cathay get around this troubling issue of only 18 hours FDP for ULH and the restriction imposed by limited 3 man ULH. They simply 'advise' HKCAD that they need to re-write the official CAD rules (read this as CX is re-writing the official HKCAD document and then presenting it to CAD for approval). CX then have the governing rules changed, they say, great we can now change FTL's in Vol 1 legally to reflect these changes and presto... We are doing 21 hour FDP's and 3 man ULH. All completely legal I might add!!!
As I said, this is happening as we type. It's not rumour.
In addition to increasing the maximum FDP to help introduce further afield destinations and making 3 man ULH more 'Company Friendly' due to Cx's crewing short falls, all of the 'loop holes' in the current FTL's will be closed. For example, ask any ISM what their understanding of FTL's is when an aircraft stops in Taipei from North America to get more fuel. The Cockpit Crew go to the hotel, but the Company thinks the Cabin Crew can operate TPE-HKG. This area will be 'addressed' in the new and improved FTL's.
Stay tuned....
I've heard it first hand from the GMA myself. I'm surprised that this is the only reference to it at present, as it certainly has been kept very quite.
The great man himself stated that our FTL's in Vol 1 are simply an interpretation of the original HKCAD document. Cathay is obviously bound by the limitations layed down by this CAD document.
So how does Cathay get around this troubling issue of only 18 hours FDP for ULH and the restriction imposed by limited 3 man ULH. They simply 'advise' HKCAD that they need to re-write the official CAD rules (read this as CX is re-writing the official HKCAD document and then presenting it to CAD for approval). CX then have the governing rules changed, they say, great we can now change FTL's in Vol 1 legally to reflect these changes and presto... We are doing 21 hour FDP's and 3 man ULH. All completely legal I might add!!!
As I said, this is happening as we type. It's not rumour.
In addition to increasing the maximum FDP to help introduce further afield destinations and making 3 man ULH more 'Company Friendly' due to Cx's crewing short falls, all of the 'loop holes' in the current FTL's will be closed. For example, ask any ISM what their understanding of FTL's is when an aircraft stops in Taipei from North America to get more fuel. The Cockpit Crew go to the hotel, but the Company thinks the Cabin Crew can operate TPE-HKG. This area will be 'addressed' in the new and improved FTL's.
Stay tuned....
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On shore FTLs ?
So what happens to the based guys who get "onshored" and are working for a based (on shored) company. Would they be governed by the basing country's FTLS (if they were more strict) ?
Where did I leave that resume'.............
FG
Where did I leave that resume'.............
FG
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12 hour rule
Yes, our GMA also now interprets the 12 hr time displacement rule as the maximum from HKG. So, to give you an actual example, someone who flew to DXB, flew back to HKG and then the next day flew to NY was only ever 12 hours from HKG at any given time so therefore within the AFTLS - his total time zone crossings was from HKG-4 to HKG +12 or 16 time zones.
Does beg the question though...why bother with having this rule when you can only ever get 12 hours away from HKG!?
CAD's response - the mirror man! (we will look into it). There has been at least 2 breaches of this rule!
I am not up to speed with the FTLWG but I suspect 3man crewing is on the agenda - but it probably is always on the agenda! I think Toller tried something along these lines around 1990 - so its an ongoing battle!
Does beg the question though...why bother with having this rule when you can only ever get 12 hours away from HKG!?
CAD's response - the mirror man! (we will look into it). There has been at least 2 breaches of this rule!
I am not up to speed with the FTLWG but I suspect 3man crewing is on the agenda - but it probably is always on the agenda! I think Toller tried something along these lines around 1990 - so its an ongoing battle!
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Oh just wait till we start using those based in Nth America to fly across to HKG, layover, then fly as far as BKK, possibly BOM, layover, and then do the whole thing in reverse 
The Company is talking with the CAD about this, especially about the current FTLs and wishful changes.
Think that it may NOT happen ? Think again - I spoke to the GMA last week, and he told me that 'They' are looking at it seriously, especially when all the B744 boys are assimilated to B773ER ops., AND 'they' want to rid our overtime clause. If not, at least 'raise the bar' to 95 hours.
Mr Bloggs I agree with you 100% - we deserve what we get - who drank the Koolaid and signed away the 5-4-3 protection ?!?!? More importantly, how much more will we sign away and then complain how unfair we are being treated
The Company is talking with the CAD about this, especially about the current FTLs and wishful changes.
Think that it may NOT happen ? Think again - I spoke to the GMA last week, and he told me that 'They' are looking at it seriously, especially when all the B744 boys are assimilated to B773ER ops., AND 'they' want to rid our overtime clause. If not, at least 'raise the bar' to 95 hours.
Mr Bloggs I agree with you 100% - we deserve what we get - who drank the Koolaid and signed away the 5-4-3 protection ?!?!? More importantly, how much more will we sign away and then complain how unfair we are being treated
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Management - you are getting more and more cryptic. Too busy spending that bonus to talk to the employees in full sentences these days?
I miss your lucid end well thought out logical explanations of how you earn your bonus at my expense.
I miss your lucid end well thought out logical explanations of how you earn your bonus at my expense.
Last edited by missingblade; 1st Oct 2007 at 11:27.