Warning Shot !!!!
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Finally
I have been in this industry for 29yrs. For most of that time the "pilot shortage" was just around the corner. We never seemed to reach that corner....until now. I was just listening to the news and they had a representative from IFAPA on talking about the lack of new pilots and the consequences for world wide airline. Gents we now have the upper hand. Let NR&Co stomp their feet and jump up and down all they like. Eventually they will have to come to the table with real offers unless they want even more of their airplanes parked due to lack of crew.
We DON'T need any sort of industrial action, and we DON'T need to be talking to them about changes. Just do our jobs and let them stew in their own mess awhile. In fact it would be best for the AOA to stay home awhile. This company needs a lesson on "market forces" They need to show us the money, not just a few shinny trinkets! I here rumours a large number of our crew will be going to Virgin Australias new long haul, good. Good for them and good for us.
We DON'T need any sort of industrial action, and we DON'T need to be talking to them about changes. Just do our jobs and let them stew in their own mess awhile. In fact it would be best for the AOA to stay home awhile. This company needs a lesson on "market forces" They need to show us the money, not just a few shinny trinkets! I here rumours a large number of our crew will be going to Virgin Australias new long haul, good. Good for them and good for us.
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Wow, sounds like some would like to put some pressure on the company with these impending pilot shortages but with no action.
Maybe we can convince the younger pilots to do our dirty work for us. That way we might get some shares at 7.47 again. One can only hope.
Well if the pilot group had been smart you could have started over a year ago by not signing the RP 07 rostering deal. We gave them the flexibility and productivity increase they wanted and desperately needed by giving away
1. 5-4-3
2. 30 day free reserve
3. Flight Duty Period not starting after the 4 mark
4. Change of duty NOT NORMALLY being reserve
Could have put great pressure on the rostering situation.
With all those pilots that helped out flying the freighter during the summer has delayed the problems they are having with the freighter crewing at the moment. Thanks Gentlemen, you done a great service for the pilot group as a whole.
The CX pilots are not very smart when it comes to industrial matters. They can’t see past they own noses. They are willing to sacrifice another group (based or non based depending where you sit) so it may be marginally better for themselves.
We have to have our own house in order if we want to move forward, but that is not going to happen. We can’t work as one and will always have our own self interest groups.
You sold out and now you want it back. It’s not going to happen.
Good luck with that pay rise thingy, I’m sure they will give it to you on a silver salver.
Sorry Ed, how hard is it to keep the nerve by doing nothing. Should not be a problem for the average CX pilot. That is a funny one.
Maybe we can convince the younger pilots to do our dirty work for us. That way we might get some shares at 7.47 again. One can only hope.
Well if the pilot group had been smart you could have started over a year ago by not signing the RP 07 rostering deal. We gave them the flexibility and productivity increase they wanted and desperately needed by giving away
1. 5-4-3
2. 30 day free reserve
3. Flight Duty Period not starting after the 4 mark
4. Change of duty NOT NORMALLY being reserve
Could have put great pressure on the rostering situation.
With all those pilots that helped out flying the freighter during the summer has delayed the problems they are having with the freighter crewing at the moment. Thanks Gentlemen, you done a great service for the pilot group as a whole.
The CX pilots are not very smart when it comes to industrial matters. They can’t see past they own noses. They are willing to sacrifice another group (based or non based depending where you sit) so it may be marginally better for themselves.
We have to have our own house in order if we want to move forward, but that is not going to happen. We can’t work as one and will always have our own self interest groups.
You sold out and now you want it back. It’s not going to happen.
Good luck with that pay rise thingy, I’m sure they will give it to you on a silver salver.
Sorry Ed, how hard is it to keep the nerve by doing nothing. Should not be a problem for the average CX pilot. That is a funny one.
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I betcha that if we had just done nothing and accepted nothing over the past 10 or so years things would be better than they are now.
It's now our chance to finally do nothing. Sit back and calmly watch who starts negotiating with US! WE have the upper hand.
It's now our chance to finally do nothing. Sit back and calmly watch who starts negotiating with US! WE have the upper hand.
Thread Starter
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Ah, yes , the old. "Stick my head in the sand" approach, well if your gonna stick your head in the sand, don't be too suprised when someone shoves something up your Ass !!!!..............
A couple of Interesting things,
1. The company will Impose a "Single digit" payrise on 1st January, details to be announced in October along with the rest of the "Plan" (COS08- in all but name)
2. The ASL Guys will be signed to the bottom of the Seniority list and the FACA torn up.......................
But that means the Company will Employ Direct Entry Captains.............Not quite in the spirit of the agreement Not to ever employ direct entry again !!! so supposedly the ASL guys will sign over as F/O's then be "Promoted" after 15 minutes "Service"..................
Don't think the , do nothing, that way I have nothing to fear approach will cut it !!!!
A couple of Interesting things,
1. The company will Impose a "Single digit" payrise on 1st January, details to be announced in October along with the rest of the "Plan" (COS08- in all but name)
2. The ASL Guys will be signed to the bottom of the Seniority list and the FACA torn up.......................
But that means the Company will Employ Direct Entry Captains.............Not quite in the spirit of the agreement Not to ever employ direct entry again !!! so supposedly the ASL guys will sign over as F/O's then be "Promoted" after 15 minutes "Service"..................
Don't think the , do nothing, that way I have nothing to fear approach will cut it !!!!
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"The current PPRUNE rumour is that somehow CX will circumvent this by allowing these ASL pilots to resign from ASL and rejoin CX as junior employees. There are some contractual issues to be dealt with. Effectively CX would be recruiting direct entry captains which is not allowed within our CoS."
Hate to burst your bubble Numero C. But this has already happened. Checkout two chaps at the bottom of the seniority list. They quit ASL and joined CX with the seat intact effectively as DEC's (maybe CX classified it as Rapid Command). The rest of the gang will join on Jan 1 2008.
Hate to burst your bubble Numero C. But this has already happened. Checkout two chaps at the bottom of the seniority list. They quit ASL and joined CX with the seat intact effectively as DEC's (maybe CX classified it as Rapid Command). The rest of the gang will join on Jan 1 2008.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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What you have to do is a little sickness here, a little sickness there.
Don’t answer your phone ever on a 2747 number. It may inconvenience you a little but it hurts CX on flexibility. Just sign in on your regular duty. If everyone did this, CC would have mini crisis’s which in Time will escalate into something bigger if they don’t get it under control.
Don’t answer your hotel phone, don’t use discretion, don’t acknowledge crew direct, don’t answer you phone before reserve, don’t fly the freighter (think I beat that one to death).
Know the rules of your COS, AFTL’s, and Rostering Practices. Work within the rules.
Basically, Fly the Contract!!!!!!!
How about a "Minimum effort" sticker to slap in the A/C as reminder??
Don’t answer your phone ever on a 2747 number. It may inconvenience you a little but it hurts CX on flexibility. Just sign in on your regular duty. If everyone did this, CC would have mini crisis’s which in Time will escalate into something bigger if they don’t get it under control.
Don’t answer your hotel phone, don’t use discretion, don’t acknowledge crew direct, don’t answer you phone before reserve, don’t fly the freighter (think I beat that one to death).
Know the rules of your COS, AFTL’s, and Rostering Practices. Work within the rules.
Basically, Fly the Contract!!!!!!!
How about a "Minimum effort" sticker to slap in the A/C as reminder??
Join Date: Oct 2006
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I stand corrected
You guys are right. The way around this is to offer freighter (classic) commands based in HKG or somewhere unpopular - it goes down the seniority list until it gets to the recently joined, ex ASL scabs(whoops, did I say that out loud), who then conveniently walk into their old jobs. The only down side for them is that presumably they have to start on CN1 salary not whatever salary they are currently on.
So yes I believe the rumours are correct and CX will again make a mockery of our contract. Th FACA will be gone in early 2008.
Doing nothing will not work. If Isaac Newton were alive today he would have come up with a 4th law - "for every vacancy there is an applicant". With all due respect to my friends and ex colleagues in the sandpit, EK is living proof of this. They were taking everyone they could and the result is that many of the guys they took are incapable of being CNs and now EK have had DECs for a few years.
If CX lowered the standard we could ride it out for 10-15 years....presumably all the people now were recruited on the basis that they would be good enough to be CNs in CX. So who we recruit now only becomes a problem for CX in over a decade....and do you think the people making these decisions will still be around?
Two things will upset the apple cart - industrial action(not likely) and people leaving. So I personally don't believe pilot shortage will effect anything here - but thats just my opinion!
So yes I believe the rumours are correct and CX will again make a mockery of our contract. Th FACA will be gone in early 2008.
Doing nothing will not work. If Isaac Newton were alive today he would have come up with a 4th law - "for every vacancy there is an applicant". With all due respect to my friends and ex colleagues in the sandpit, EK is living proof of this. They were taking everyone they could and the result is that many of the guys they took are incapable of being CNs and now EK have had DECs for a few years.
If CX lowered the standard we could ride it out for 10-15 years....presumably all the people now were recruited on the basis that they would be good enough to be CNs in CX. So who we recruit now only becomes a problem for CX in over a decade....and do you think the people making these decisions will still be around?
Two things will upset the apple cart - industrial action(not likely) and people leaving. So I personally don't believe pilot shortage will effect anything here - but thats just my opinion!
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True - I like to remain balanced, fair and forgiving but I fail sometimes. I have nothing against the guys that stayed in ASL because they were approaching 55. I have ZERO time for any that stayed because they wanted a quick command. The creation of ASL cost my peers years to command. ASL guys had a chance to come back in 2000. Those too selfish and self interested(and young enough) to join then have no sympathy with me. I think it would be a major CRM hazard to have them flying with anyone who was around back then. Fortunately, from a CRM point of view, they will all be CNs and so only flying with guys that joined CX from 2000 onwards.
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ed roddington
There have been pilots extending beyond 55th birthday on and off for over a decade depending on CX's needs. The previous DFO's extension incurred bypass pay as does our current GMA. There are people on bypass pay whether you see it or not. It generally goes to those categorised Cat C, and sinbinned, or those categorised Cat B. It is reasonably rare for anyone unassessed or any Cat A guys to get it as there are so many in the B+C categories. I remember back in 2001 seeing that a couple of Cat C guys had been getting bypass pay for over a year.
There are only 20 odd extendees that necessitate bypass pay....freighter pilot extensions do not incure bypass pay. There are a lot more than 20 Cat B+C. If(when) CoS08 comes in, about 1-2 years from now you will see plenty of Cat A or even unassessed FOs getting bypass pay when there are over 100+ extendees.
My opinion on extending - well, it has been in the contract since before my time. It is very easy for us well short of 55 to say you shouldn't extend. I won't presume to pass judgement for the majority. For myself, I would not accept the insult of inferior conditions. But then I think CX is just a job whereas for some, it is a way of life. I work to live, not live to work!
There are only 20 odd extendees that necessitate bypass pay....freighter pilot extensions do not incure bypass pay. There are a lot more than 20 Cat B+C. If(when) CoS08 comes in, about 1-2 years from now you will see plenty of Cat A or even unassessed FOs getting bypass pay when there are over 100+ extendees.
My opinion on extending - well, it has been in the contract since before my time. It is very easy for us well short of 55 to say you shouldn't extend. I won't presume to pass judgement for the majority. For myself, I would not accept the insult of inferior conditions. But then I think CX is just a job whereas for some, it is a way of life. I work to live, not live to work!
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Our cost - our worth?
We are but a small component of the operational costs. Looking at CX numbers, inflight services cost was almost as great as our salary bill for the first six months of the year (CX only).
Aircrew salaries(+PF) contribute 5% to total operating cost of the airline. Fuel contributes almost 30%. I find it ironic that the last pay offer would have equated to about 2% of the FUEL costs, or well under 1% in total operating costs. If the AOA initial offer had been accepted then the total operating costs would have gone up by about 1.5% in 3 years time. That equates to about 5% of the total FUEL bill.
How much fuel do we strive to save on every flight? Its lucky for the company that it is our professionalism that encourages the same parsimonious approach to fuel uplift and burn as they have shown us in pay negotiations.
I also find it ironic that the critical restraining factor in growth is aircrew and that segment has been most neglected. Still, from a managerial point of view, what is to be gained from paying more or improving benefits? They have achieved huge productivity gains over the last 6 years without any additional pay or benefits. So I guess I can't blame them for thinking the current operating model of management is the correct one!
I guess we are stuck in Newton's first law - nothing will change until a force, extrinsic(recruiting) or intrinsic(IA or people leaving), is applied!
Aircrew salaries(+PF) contribute 5% to total operating cost of the airline. Fuel contributes almost 30%. I find it ironic that the last pay offer would have equated to about 2% of the FUEL costs, or well under 1% in total operating costs. If the AOA initial offer had been accepted then the total operating costs would have gone up by about 1.5% in 3 years time. That equates to about 5% of the total FUEL bill.
How much fuel do we strive to save on every flight? Its lucky for the company that it is our professionalism that encourages the same parsimonious approach to fuel uplift and burn as they have shown us in pay negotiations.
I also find it ironic that the critical restraining factor in growth is aircrew and that segment has been most neglected. Still, from a managerial point of view, what is to be gained from paying more or improving benefits? They have achieved huge productivity gains over the last 6 years without any additional pay or benefits. So I guess I can't blame them for thinking the current operating model of management is the correct one!
I guess we are stuck in Newton's first law - nothing will change until a force, extrinsic(recruiting) or intrinsic(IA or people leaving), is applied!
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I guess we are stuck in Newton's first law - nothing will change until a force, extrinsic(recruiting) or intrinsic(IA or people leaving), is applied!
The Management
