Asian Pilot Shortage
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Sqwak7700,
I suggest the time it takes the Cadet program to 'pump out a qualified airline pilot', however 'loosely' you are using that term, is the length of the Cadet programme plus however long it is until any individual passes his/her initial JFO line check.
Please kindly tell me how long you think it takes.
I suggest the time it takes the Cadet program to 'pump out a qualified airline pilot', however 'loosely' you are using that term, is the length of the Cadet programme plus however long it is until any individual passes his/her initial JFO line check.
Please kindly tell me how long you think it takes.
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I suggest the time it takes the Cadet program to 'pump out a qualified airline pilot', however 'loosely' you are using that term, is the length of the Cadet programme plus however long it is until any individual passes his/her initial JFO line check.
Please kindly tell me how long you think it takes.
Please kindly tell me how long you think it takes.
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I doubt Dragon has SO's - they don't do ULH. Their cadets essentially go straight into the right seat as FO's with 200 hours TT. And they seem to be fine despite little experience. Same at CAL, Malaysia and most Mainland Airlines with regional fleets. SO is something Cathay makes a guy do to save $$$ on ULH.
Which brings me back to my prediction that this career is doomed by cadet schemes/ MPL etc etc etc
Which brings me back to my prediction that this career is doomed by cadet schemes/ MPL etc etc etc
SO in KA is a rank - not a crew position. SO promotes to JFO after a a period of time and the requisite ability, and et seq to FO. The only differnece is the pay, the number of stripes on the shoulder and the crosswind limits. All get to fly the aircraft, but (as alluded) to varying levels of skill due to corresponding experience.
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Well there you have it!! All semantics!!
And here I was always thinking that if you ONLY have two guys in the cockpit one is the Cpt and one is the FO. If these companies truly want to move into the 21 century with regards to CRM and cockpit gradients maybe the silly titles should go sometime. Nowhere else do you wear your payscale on your shoulder like here. The only thing that one stripe is good for is to lose the respect of the passengers it is supposed to get and than help you to confuse people around the airport building into thinking you are the assistant to the security guard or something....
With regards to cadets - I don't think it is a great way to get into the game either - and have done enough flying with guys like that to see many of them shy away from a crosswind. But their ability is not the point. The fact that their existence threatens the value of this career is the point I have been making since this thread started.
And here I was always thinking that if you ONLY have two guys in the cockpit one is the Cpt and one is the FO. If these companies truly want to move into the 21 century with regards to CRM and cockpit gradients maybe the silly titles should go sometime. Nowhere else do you wear your payscale on your shoulder like here. The only thing that one stripe is good for is to lose the respect of the passengers it is supposed to get and than help you to confuse people around the airport building into thinking you are the assistant to the security guard or something....
With regards to cadets - I don't think it is a great way to get into the game either - and have done enough flying with guys like that to see many of them shy away from a crosswind. But their ability is not the point. The fact that their existence threatens the value of this career is the point I have been making since this thread started.
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With regards to cadets - I don't think it is a great way to get into the game either - and have done enough flying with guys like that to see many of them shy away from a crosswind. But their ability is not the point. The fact that their existence threatens the value of this career is the point I have been making since this thread started.
But do you see that around Asia?
If you knew anything about Asia you would know that there is very little to no general aviation in many countries here. Even if there is a flying club, they are mostly set up to cater for the "rich" and "upper circle" so they can impress their model girlfriends on weekends....(would YOU be able to afford a PPL course at HKD2500/hour when you were 16??)
My point is, there are very few chances for most of the people in Asia to get into Aviation and a cadetship is very probably their ONLY chance to fly. The areas which need most pilots now, China and India, are prime examples. I'm so sorry for devaluing "your" career, but from what you're saying, are you suggesting that all cadetships should be stopped so this career can remain an expat monopoly and therefore keep the wages high?
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And they seem to be fine despite little experience.
Underpaid and undertrained. It is now a requirement that upgrading Dragonair Captains have an SO in their two day simulator evalulation- using a conventional First Officer has been deemed too advantageuos.
Somedays, in China and in Dragonair, having a Second Officer in the RHS can be pressing.
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Hey iMad - relax!
I never ever implied that its about protecting expat jobs. There are more expat jobs now than ever before. Its about a cheapening of the profession.
The rot started years ago in the west with low cost airlines too. All I am concerned about - and if you make the effort to look at my other posts around pprune you'll see - is that cadets are being exploited by the airlines as cheap labour. In other words - I am on your side mate.
Go practise your crosswinds on that 330 sim till you cool off.
Oh and by the way I think you will find that the VAST MAJORITY of us worked our asses off and prostituted ourselves to shady operators in the bush/outback/northpole/Congo-(which I found particularly bad) for years while paying of loans to get where we are. Kinda slightly harder than having CX/ KA pay it all for you while you run around Adelaide chasing ugly chicks and sleeping in a warm ( CX/KA paid for ) bed.
So you see - actually not having general aviation in Asia saved you a lot of effort!!!!
I never ever implied that its about protecting expat jobs. There are more expat jobs now than ever before. Its about a cheapening of the profession.
The rot started years ago in the west with low cost airlines too. All I am concerned about - and if you make the effort to look at my other posts around pprune you'll see - is that cadets are being exploited by the airlines as cheap labour. In other words - I am on your side mate.
Go practise your crosswinds on that 330 sim till you cool off.
Oh and by the way I think you will find that the VAST MAJORITY of us worked our asses off and prostituted ourselves to shady operators in the bush/outback/northpole/Congo-(which I found particularly bad) for years while paying of loans to get where we are. Kinda slightly harder than having CX/ KA pay it all for you while you run around Adelaide chasing ugly chicks and sleeping in a warm ( CX/KA paid for ) bed.
So you see - actually not having general aviation in Asia saved you a lot of effort!!!!
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SIC, I have ZERO intention of turning this into an EXPAT vs CADET argument. I didn't exactly sit around waiting for a cadetship to happen, but that's another story, let's keep this civil alright?
I know you've had to prostitute yourself, and work your axx off.... for some shady operator to get to where you are now, I respect that. I also respect your ability to operate an aircraft. I respect your experience. But my point is that at least you had the CHANCE to build that experience. Given the chance I'm sure a lot of Asians would do the same. The problem is we can't even afford to start! Go try and tell some Mainland Chinese or Indian whose family is struggling to feed themselves properly that they should spend 500K on getting their son a CPL. Even if they wanted to borrow the money to do so they won't be able to.
Try put yourself into the shoe of a low-income family in HK, you're the 21-year old son who dreams of flying one day, but you cannot afford to fly in HK (or anywhere else for that matter), what would YOU do? Would you say "oh if I joined CX as a cadet I would be undermining the efforts of all those expats to raise their salaries cos by hiring me CX will be saving housing costs, so I guess I better not join and give up this life-long dream."?
1. I'm not on a bond. 2. My starting salary is the same as yours.
So I'm cheap labour? I'm on the same contract as you. What makes me cheap labour? Yes I don't get housing, I'm from Hong Kong, I expected it, but hey don't get me wrong, if the company wants to give me housing I wouldn't mind. I just resent the fact that you keep on saying I'm cheap labour. Do Qantas/BA cadets get housing? Do you get housing on a base? Why am I the cheap labour who undercuts YOUR salaries when the only difference is that I don't get housing because I'm from HK?
call me lazy but I don't research all threads.... all I've seen on THIS thread is you ridiculing us about crosswind landings and how my "existence threatens the value of this career" ..
The cadet scheme has been running for nearly 20 years, do you really think your career is doomed?
I know you've had to prostitute yourself, and work your axx off.... for some shady operator to get to where you are now, I respect that. I also respect your ability to operate an aircraft. I respect your experience. But my point is that at least you had the CHANCE to build that experience. Given the chance I'm sure a lot of Asians would do the same. The problem is we can't even afford to start! Go try and tell some Mainland Chinese or Indian whose family is struggling to feed themselves properly that they should spend 500K on getting their son a CPL. Even if they wanted to borrow the money to do so they won't be able to.
Try put yourself into the shoe of a low-income family in HK, you're the 21-year old son who dreams of flying one day, but you cannot afford to fly in HK (or anywhere else for that matter), what would YOU do? Would you say "oh if I joined CX as a cadet I would be undermining the efforts of all those expats to raise their salaries cos by hiring me CX will be saving housing costs, so I guess I better not join and give up this life-long dream."?
"2. Pilot shortages will eventually be eradicated by huge cadet schemes. These cadets will be signed up for cheap long contracts and will fill all the slots in future. Ie. once again it will do nothing to improve your conditions cause a local cadet with a big bond/low starting salary/no housing and education allowance will cost the company a lot less over a 25 year career than an expat ever will."
So I'm cheap labour? I'm on the same contract as you. What makes me cheap labour? Yes I don't get housing, I'm from Hong Kong, I expected it, but hey don't get me wrong, if the company wants to give me housing I wouldn't mind. I just resent the fact that you keep on saying I'm cheap labour. Do Qantas/BA cadets get housing? Do you get housing on a base? Why am I the cheap labour who undercuts YOUR salaries when the only difference is that I don't get housing because I'm from HK?
I am on your side mate
my prediction that this career is doomed by cadet schemes/ MPL etc etc etc
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iMad,
I'm afraid in a lot of people's minds, the difference between an ex-cadet and an expat pilot goes beyond whether we receive a housing allowance or not. Please refer to Sqwak7700's post earlier in this thread. Not only do we have to pass the line checks and management reviews, we ex-cadets must also work that extra little bit to be PERCEIVED as being 'qualified' pilots.
Sqwak7700?
I'm afraid in a lot of people's minds, the difference between an ex-cadet and an expat pilot goes beyond whether we receive a housing allowance or not. Please refer to Sqwak7700's post earlier in this thread. Not only do we have to pass the line checks and management reviews, we ex-cadets must also work that extra little bit to be PERCEIVED as being 'qualified' pilots.
Sqwak7700?
Last edited by Guru; 21st Aug 2007 at 18:18.
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Imad
I don't see why you insist on viewing my posts as an attack on cadets. I have no issues with the guys - I have issues with airlines who abuse this system.
Admit I have been a bit sarcastic - but I also stated often that I have no beef with the abilities of different pilot groups due to their background experience - so take the crosswind thing as a bad joke.
CX is unique in paying its cadets the same salaries as the expat employees. If you look at most other Asian companies the local guys get screwed and the expats generally get more money.
So once again - to make this very clear - I think that cadet programs will become bigger and bigger in future. In Asia they will allow Asian airlines to employ their own people at a reduced rate. And this will happen in the west too - Qantas is apparently going to build a huge flight school.
And no matter what people say a cadet signed up when fairly young will give a company more years of service and cost less than a guy who came through the traditional way ever will. One of the main killers of the A scale was the fact that guys were signing up younger ( more years of service = more time to make the pot you need for retirement) than the traditional 35 year old ex air force guy. SO the point is cadet schemes and hiring very young low time guys puts pressure on to reduce salaries and conditions.
As mentioned before I HOPE I AM WRONG. I am only stating what I perceive to be the way airlines would like things to become i.t.o pilot recruitment.
This industry is faced by many issues that reduce the value of a pilot. Cadet schemes as mentioned, low cost carriers as mentioned and last but not least simple greed. Saw a news story a while ago about an american airline ( Delta, AA or United ) paying their CEO 40 mil in bonuses right after they came out of chapter 11. At the same time their profit for the year was 26 mil. And all their staff were still on 35% reduced salaries with frozen pension funds since 9/11.
Company directors on average these days earn 400 times what the average employee makes - this was only 40 times twenty years ago. This goes on everywhere - not just airlines. The unique thing with aviation is that it is the only industry that actually sells most of its product ( econ tickets ) at below cost and make their profits off cutting their employees benefits.....
I don't see why you insist on viewing my posts as an attack on cadets. I have no issues with the guys - I have issues with airlines who abuse this system.
Admit I have been a bit sarcastic - but I also stated often that I have no beef with the abilities of different pilot groups due to their background experience - so take the crosswind thing as a bad joke.
CX is unique in paying its cadets the same salaries as the expat employees. If you look at most other Asian companies the local guys get screwed and the expats generally get more money.
So once again - to make this very clear - I think that cadet programs will become bigger and bigger in future. In Asia they will allow Asian airlines to employ their own people at a reduced rate. And this will happen in the west too - Qantas is apparently going to build a huge flight school.
And no matter what people say a cadet signed up when fairly young will give a company more years of service and cost less than a guy who came through the traditional way ever will. One of the main killers of the A scale was the fact that guys were signing up younger ( more years of service = more time to make the pot you need for retirement) than the traditional 35 year old ex air force guy. SO the point is cadet schemes and hiring very young low time guys puts pressure on to reduce salaries and conditions.
As mentioned before I HOPE I AM WRONG. I am only stating what I perceive to be the way airlines would like things to become i.t.o pilot recruitment.
This industry is faced by many issues that reduce the value of a pilot. Cadet schemes as mentioned, low cost carriers as mentioned and last but not least simple greed. Saw a news story a while ago about an american airline ( Delta, AA or United ) paying their CEO 40 mil in bonuses right after they came out of chapter 11. At the same time their profit for the year was 26 mil. And all their staff were still on 35% reduced salaries with frozen pension funds since 9/11.
Company directors on average these days earn 400 times what the average employee makes - this was only 40 times twenty years ago. This goes on everywhere - not just airlines. The unique thing with aviation is that it is the only industry that actually sells most of its product ( econ tickets ) at below cost and make their profits off cutting their employees benefits.....
Last edited by SIC; 22nd Aug 2007 at 05:14.
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"Not only do we have to pass the line checks and management reviews, we ex-cadets must also work that extra little bit to be PERCEIVED as being 'qualified' pilots"
Well, at least I cadets gett 6 months right-seat time before they start their command course in an airplane they haven't flown. Meanwhile, expat pilots go straight into the flames.
Well, at least I cadets gett 6 months right-seat time before they start their command course in an airplane they haven't flown. Meanwhile, expat pilots go straight into the flames.