it's time for the chinese pilot to learn english
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Bekol, its not an accomplishment that he speaks "some english" he is required to speak English to do the job...no exceptions. If he doesnt, then he can go burn some illegal DVDs back in Shenzhen. The JFK controller gave clear and concise instructions, should he have stopped everyone else while he gave some instructions in Engrish?
As long as English speaking nations keep flying the overwhelming majority of the World's air-traffic, there is no way Chinese would ever be used in aviation.
As long as English speaking nations keep flying the overwhelming majority of the World's air-traffic, there is no way Chinese would ever be used in aviation.
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I think that's why they give you an Airport Diagram in your Jepp's and good Airmanship would dictate that you study your "expected" taxi route... Don't expect to be lead by the nose... "I'm unfamiliar, requst progressive taxi." won't cut it...
Actually, it will.
Those guys would have been better off asking for help than try bull$hitting their way through that situation.
Remember, nothing wrong with admitting that you do not know/understand something.
That controller wasn't using slang, that's just the nuu yoaaahhk accent. It's no better, no worse than some other accents around the world.
And no, english is not my native language.
Actually, it will.
Those guys would have been better off asking for help than try bull$hitting their way through that situation.
Remember, nothing wrong with admitting that you do not know/understand something.
That controller wasn't using slang, that's just the nuu yoaaahhk accent. It's no better, no worse than some other accents around the world.
And no, english is not my native language.
English is the ATC language and if it's to be used efficiently and safely by those whose first language is not English, we need to have a set of rules with standard phrases and procedures. Luckily, we have an organisation who sets those rules and procedures. It's called ICAO. Unluckily, the largest English speaking nation in the world doesn't follow them!
With my previous employer, I used to fly into JFK a lot. Even though I'm a native English speaker, I found it disorganised, chaotic and confusing. This confusion erroded safety to an unacceptable standard on more than one occasion and I hated flying in and out of there. I now fly several times a month to PEK. They are similar in size and both have a poor layout. The majority of control is conducted in Mandarin Chinese but non native operators (and this includes airlines in China from regions which don't speak mandarin) are controlled in English. This does make the operation less safe, but the big plus is the controllers use ICAO standard phraseology. Often, the only confusion occurs when a US operator comes on the frequency and starts to use 'Americanspeak' terminology.
With my previous employer, I used to fly into JFK a lot. Even though I'm a native English speaker, I found it disorganised, chaotic and confusing. This confusion erroded safety to an unacceptable standard on more than one occasion and I hated flying in and out of there. I now fly several times a month to PEK. They are similar in size and both have a poor layout. The majority of control is conducted in Mandarin Chinese but non native operators (and this includes airlines in China from regions which don't speak mandarin) are controlled in English. This does make the operation less safe, but the big plus is the controllers use ICAO standard phraseology. Often, the only confusion occurs when a US operator comes on the frequency and starts to use 'Americanspeak' terminology.
I'm not defending the CA crew - they should have a better understanding of English. I'm pointing out that there is a system in place (and yes it does exist!) to make things easier - and that the 'septics' don't use it. And if more people in the world did use it correctly, life would be easier for everyone.
PS. You got my nationality correct - you're obviously an Aussie. Good luck with your test!
PS. You got my nationality correct - you're obviously an Aussie. Good luck with your test!
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I hope you're not just starting out on your career then, because I'd be very surprised if it's more than 25 years before China overtakes the US.
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Where is the ICAO ?
Dan : So what is the proper ICAO way to ask CA if they have been cleared to the ramp ?
Yes th system is a bit antiquated and the controller should know whether the a/c can proceed into the ramp. Like LA a bit of extra chatter they could do without.
The initial taxi instructions appear to be reasonably consistant with ICAO requirements. The controller even changes the plan to try and accomadate the CA crew and they still do not get it.
I agree that rapid fire RT is not safe. It happens all over. In Manilla they issue clearance changes in a rapid unintelligible accent as well. Things is tough all over !! I will say that in the last few years while flying in an Asian airplane the U.S. controllers do slow down and speak differently to ALL asia carriers. Bit funny for us when we are an all N. American crew !
My two cents.
Yes th system is a bit antiquated and the controller should know whether the a/c can proceed into the ramp. Like LA a bit of extra chatter they could do without.
The initial taxi instructions appear to be reasonably consistant with ICAO requirements. The controller even changes the plan to try and accomadate the CA crew and they still do not get it.
I agree that rapid fire RT is not safe. It happens all over. In Manilla they issue clearance changes in a rapid unintelligible accent as well. Things is tough all over !! I will say that in the last few years while flying in an Asian airplane the U.S. controllers do slow down and speak differently to ALL asia carriers. Bit funny for us when we are an all N. American crew !
My two cents.
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But having just come back from JFK recently, there are some things about the language the controllers use that really concerns me.
For example, rolling out after landing, the instruction was given to exit "the third taxiway down on your right". I suppose he was trying to be helpful, but by the time he finished his sentence, we already rolled by two taxiways. So which one is he talking about? In the end, he gave us another clearance with the taxiway name instead, and that was that.
And taxi clearances can sometimes get a bit long winded. I really don't need to know that the Jetblue guys have blocked Bravo because they just spilled some coffee. Just say "right on Alpha" would be fine I reckon.
English is english, but when you're at an airport such as JFK, with so many international carriers and unfamiliar crews, a bit more standard phraseology could be helpful.
For example, rolling out after landing, the instruction was given to exit "the third taxiway down on your right". I suppose he was trying to be helpful, but by the time he finished his sentence, we already rolled by two taxiways. So which one is he talking about? In the end, he gave us another clearance with the taxiway name instead, and that was that.
And taxi clearances can sometimes get a bit long winded. I really don't need to know that the Jetblue guys have blocked Bravo because they just spilled some coffee. Just say "right on Alpha" would be fine I reckon.
English is english, but when you're at an airport such as JFK, with so many international carriers and unfamiliar crews, a bit more standard phraseology could be helpful.
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Don't recall many Air China pilots looking like that.
There is a tape from the States which is used by NATS to highlight runway incursions.The basics are it's foggy and an aircraft gets lost.It the enters an active ruway at an intersection with another.The GMC is hollering on,but in the background you can hear an aircraft taking off just miss this guy on the runway.
It is used to show that despite an aircraft being lost and possibly on a runway,they kept on pushing that tin.
Almost fatally.
I worked with Americans and always thought why use 5 words when 25 will do.Most Asian pilots don't stand a chance.
There is a tape from the States which is used by NATS to highlight runway incursions.The basics are it's foggy and an aircraft gets lost.It the enters an active ruway at an intersection with another.The GMC is hollering on,but in the background you can hear an aircraft taking off just miss this guy on the runway.
It is used to show that despite an aircraft being lost and possibly on a runway,they kept on pushing that tin.
Almost fatally. I worked with Americans and always thought why use 5 words when 25 will do.Most Asian pilots don't stand a chance.
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Don't recall many Air China pilots looking like that.
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Throw a dice and anyone else I have a powerpoint version of said incident complete with moving symbols and RT. Anyone wants a copy PM me and Ill try and send it on. I first saw it in NZ and as a training aid to show newbie Air traffickers some of the pitfalls of human error it was spellbinding. One really feels some anger/ anxiety/ negative emotion towards the controller for their actions. But without the influence of day to day emotions that always affect our decision making processses and rationality, thats always the way; hence hindsight , free of emotion, is always a wonderful thing.
BD vacating left on Bravo!
BD vacating left on Bravo!
Last edited by BurglarsDog; 18th Apr 2007 at 10:13. Reason: spelling
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Well if your chinese brothers were pushing as much tin as the JFK guys, they would have to speak faster too. I bet JFK ATC handles more movements in an hour than those beijing controllers do all day.
And thats with just one ground controller. Look at HKG, they have two separate ground controllers, plus a supervisor, just to handle the little ground movements they have compared to JFK.
Not saying the US way is perfect, but when I fly into that north-east corridor and hear that ole Brooklyn slang firing over the radio...i feel all warm and cozy.....and more importantly: SAFE!!!
And thats with just one ground controller. Look at HKG, they have two separate ground controllers, plus a supervisor, just to handle the little ground movements they have compared to JFK.
Not saying the US way is perfect, but when I fly into that north-east corridor and hear that ole Brooklyn slang firing over the radio...i feel all warm and cozy.....and more importantly: SAFE!!!
And flying into JFK area is safe? OMG, I can't even count the times that I get TCAS TA and wonders what the hack are those controller is doing. They are just plain unprofessional period. JFK is definitly one of the highest risk port for Cathay.
Bus
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iLuvPx,
The main reason that HK has 2 GMC is the useless design of the tower.From the GMS you can't see any of the north runway taxiways.From GMN you can't see the south runway taxiways or the cargo apron.It's a bit difficult looking through a concrete floor.The supervisor used to be non operational,although some did help out.
Also the GMC are responsible for the pushbacks on what the Americans call ''The Ramp'' so it's not the same system.If you have ever seen the pushback chart at HK,then you have to be extremely careful not to get the golden towbar award.
The main reason that HK has 2 GMC is the useless design of the tower.From the GMS you can't see any of the north runway taxiways.From GMN you can't see the south runway taxiways or the cargo apron.It's a bit difficult looking through a concrete floor.The supervisor used to be non operational,although some did help out.
Also the GMC are responsible for the pushbacks on what the Americans call ''The Ramp'' so it's not the same system.If you have ever seen the pushback chart at HK,then you have to be extremely careful not to get the golden towbar award.
