So who is the smarty pants?
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 49
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From: Near the MTR
They (mainland ATC) call the radar centre many times during the day starting at about 10am and tell us all the flow restrictions to different airport up the coast. As IGS says this can change at any moment, so no way to plan ahead- Just look like fools ! When asked for a reason its always "tecnical" or "weather", never "stupid old men acting like children with their new guns". Don't forget its not just HK traffic trying for these slots its overflight (which we can't stop coming for some reason) and Macao. Seems they wait til everything is flowed then call back and cancel everything -tooooooo late!!
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 370
Likes: 16
From: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
With the 2008 Olympics coming Bekol and Dotmi could become a really big CANNOT.The Mainland will have to switch on the metal thing that spins round,invented in WW2.
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 453
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"Unfortunately I get so embarrassed at times with some of the stuff that I see, that I was hoping to ignore oic's question and that it would just go away."
Not totally clear what you are inferring here Bedder.
I have no doubt that you do your best. I do. My annoyance is with the system that we are all a part of, hence my comments about the poor way in which KA/ATC manage these delays. As I said, I find it totally bizarre the way ATC can advise a 2 hour delay when you call ready and yet KA have no clue or at least they dont advise you (I suspect more commonly the case) when you left the office 45 mins ago of delays that have been ongoing for half a day.
So I guess I would like to pose a question - when ATC delays to PVG etc are running at hours long, does anybody from ATC contact the companies involved to advise them. Why does the information not get through to crews until "ready for ATC" calls.
As I said, there is one ATC controller that is partiularly unhelpfull and will not give away ANY info away until you call ready. Even just a hint as to how much delay previous traffic have experienced in better than no info at all.
Not totally clear what you are inferring here Bedder.
I have no doubt that you do your best. I do. My annoyance is with the system that we are all a part of, hence my comments about the poor way in which KA/ATC manage these delays. As I said, I find it totally bizarre the way ATC can advise a 2 hour delay when you call ready and yet KA have no clue or at least they dont advise you (I suspect more commonly the case) when you left the office 45 mins ago of delays that have been ongoing for half a day.
So I guess I would like to pose a question - when ATC delays to PVG etc are running at hours long, does anybody from ATC contact the companies involved to advise them. Why does the information not get through to crews until "ready for ATC" calls.
As I said, there is one ATC controller that is partiularly unhelpfull and will not give away ANY info away until you call ready. Even just a hint as to how much delay previous traffic have experienced in better than no info at all.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
From: uk
Oicur 12,
The European flow system is that CMFU at Brussels issues slots to operators everyday,based on the estimated off blocks time,and whatever the delays are for that day.It is the companies responsibilty to make sure the a/c meets that slot.The slots are usually -5/+10 mins.ATC makes sure that he gets to the hold to make the slot.At airports we really don't care what level they are looking for.Those are allocated according to the traffic situation once airborne.
Hong Kong,
There are a list of restrictions,Bekolblockages,Dotmi whatever that are based on a/c so many minutes apart at a certain level.CDC has no idea until you call whats the delay,because there could be 4 at once all going the same way.If the Mainland have slapped on one every 20 mins,often with just one level available,then you call in number 4 then it's 1 hour delay just like that.Bekol is based on overflights at crusing levels.Total Bul
it
The poor sod on CDC has people screaming whats the delay,whilst trying to work out all this C p from the mainland.The red writing on strips with not before times,or Gweilo Airlines 999 +10 mins has to be seen to be believed.But then suddenly it can all change if the Mainland lifts the restriction.
It is one of the most god awful ways I have ever seen to run a railroad.The classic was through Bekol where a B744 had to be 15,16,17 mins behind a A340 depending on who was on t'other side of border.WHY? It a 12+hour flight to London,so the 744 is just going to overtake the A340 a bit later.The 744 crew will still be off the plane by the time the A340 gets there.Yet night after night CDC has to put these restrictions on.In Europe they would have a certain radar separation going through Bekol,and the final cruising levels are up to you Mr Mainland controller.Sort it out yourself.
The WHOLE system needs scrapped otherwise your delays will just grow and grow.
The European flow system is that CMFU at Brussels issues slots to operators everyday,based on the estimated off blocks time,and whatever the delays are for that day.It is the companies responsibilty to make sure the a/c meets that slot.The slots are usually -5/+10 mins.ATC makes sure that he gets to the hold to make the slot.At airports we really don't care what level they are looking for.Those are allocated according to the traffic situation once airborne.
Hong Kong,
There are a list of restrictions,Bekolblockages,Dotmi whatever that are based on a/c so many minutes apart at a certain level.CDC has no idea until you call whats the delay,because there could be 4 at once all going the same way.If the Mainland have slapped on one every 20 mins,often with just one level available,then you call in number 4 then it's 1 hour delay just like that.Bekol is based on overflights at crusing levels.Total Bul
itThe poor sod on CDC has people screaming whats the delay,whilst trying to work out all this C
p from the mainland.The red writing on strips with not before times,or Gweilo Airlines 999 +10 mins has to be seen to be believed.But then suddenly it can all change if the Mainland lifts the restriction.It is one of the most god awful ways I have ever seen to run a railroad.The classic was through Bekol where a B744 had to be 15,16,17 mins behind a A340 depending on who was on t'other side of border.WHY? It a 12+hour flight to London,so the 744 is just going to overtake the A340 a bit later.The 744 crew will still be off the plane by the time the A340 gets there.Yet night after night CDC has to put these restrictions on.In Europe they would have a certain radar separation going through Bekol,and the final cruising levels are up to you Mr Mainland controller.Sort it out yourself.
The WHOLE system needs scrapped otherwise your delays will just grow and grow.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: hkong
wrong tree
Reference the delays at Bekol ..and Dotmi..ATC has tried but is unable to make improvments to the situation.
We do our best to provide the best service possible with continually changing restrictions. You really would have to witness the daily circus of requirments provide by our brothers to the north first hand to trully appreciate how difficult it is to provide any kind of reasonable flow through these exit points. Not unusuall for Sydney-Shanghai flights to orbit waiting for ther DT crossing time to come up. ???
The only people that have the power to force improvements to the system are the Airlines. Airline management must formally and regularly complain to the authorities untill some form of improvement is made.
You as pilots need to formally complain to managment..do you ??
ATC can co-ordinate with the airlines but you just do not appreciate how often the restrictions change from hour to hour. Sure we could advise expect 1 hour delay, but then 15 minutes later it changes to 1 hour 30 and then 30 minutes later it changes to no delay..where do you want your passengers to be in this situation. China needs to get it's act sorted out and it will take pressure from the airlines for this to happen.
Weather is just around the corner and Olympics not to far off...Good luck ??
We do our best to provide the best service possible with continually changing restrictions. You really would have to witness the daily circus of requirments provide by our brothers to the north first hand to trully appreciate how difficult it is to provide any kind of reasonable flow through these exit points. Not unusuall for Sydney-Shanghai flights to orbit waiting for ther DT crossing time to come up. ???
The only people that have the power to force improvements to the system are the Airlines. Airline management must formally and regularly complain to the authorities untill some form of improvement is made.
You as pilots need to formally complain to managment..do you ??
ATC can co-ordinate with the airlines but you just do not appreciate how often the restrictions change from hour to hour. Sure we could advise expect 1 hour delay, but then 15 minutes later it changes to 1 hour 30 and then 30 minutes later it changes to no delay..where do you want your passengers to be in this situation. China needs to get it's act sorted out and it will take pressure from the airlines for this to happen.
Weather is just around the corner and Olympics not to far off...Good luck ??
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 453
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Another update re the delays into mainland china,
Last evening we gave pdc readback early and asked "any delays".
ATC advised - word for word - "yes, 3 minutes delay flow control".
Sweet me thinks, 3 mins is nothing. 20 minutes later we are still waiting for freq change so we ask again. "further delay about 6-8 mins" was the reply.
During the total delay of about 30 minutes, I listened to 3 other KA aircraft with similar queries that were given similar answers from ATC. 2 of them after some time came back with further requests for info only to be told - "3 minutes flow control, you are number x so about 30 mins delay".
WHY DIDNT HE SAY THIS IN THE FIRT PLACE.
ATC's first response to our question was very clear to us and others and yet we still sit for 30 minutes in the dark.
My point - when aircraft ask "how long the delay", just give an answer to the question, even a rough guide.
Last evening we gave pdc readback early and asked "any delays".
ATC advised - word for word - "yes, 3 minutes delay flow control".
Sweet me thinks, 3 mins is nothing. 20 minutes later we are still waiting for freq change so we ask again. "further delay about 6-8 mins" was the reply.
During the total delay of about 30 minutes, I listened to 3 other KA aircraft with similar queries that were given similar answers from ATC. 2 of them after some time came back with further requests for info only to be told - "3 minutes flow control, you are number x so about 30 mins delay".
WHY DIDNT HE SAY THIS IN THE FIRT PLACE.
ATC's first response to our question was very clear to us and others and yet we still sit for 30 minutes in the dark.
My point - when aircraft ask "how long the delay", just give an answer to the question, even a rough guide.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
From: uk
Oh the threads back.
The 3 minute flow was always very tricky for tower to achieve.On single runway it's impossible because the gaps just don't fall that way.On duel runway it can be done,but only with a certain combination.Also you couldn't fire off outbounds 1min apart,as it always crept to 2 mins,so 3mins became 4 etc.Then some days it's 5 mins which is 30+ miles on radar.No one asked the Tower about 3 mins.I could give you 3 mins,but that a gap down the drain.
Also CDC might have transferred previous traffic to GMC north or south,and has to leap between the two to work out a delay for you.If it were a local they may not have the English skill to explain in non standard R/T.If you'd asked me ''Any delays''when I was there,I would have said ''Yes,give me 20 mins to work it out''.
So why bother with 3mins if it's tricky to achieve.It just delays more outbounds who have no flow requirements.It puts an enormous r/t load on CDC,trying to explain a useless system to bewildered pilots.
The 3 minute flow was always very tricky for tower to achieve.On single runway it's impossible because the gaps just don't fall that way.On duel runway it can be done,but only with a certain combination.Also you couldn't fire off outbounds 1min apart,as it always crept to 2 mins,so 3mins became 4 etc.Then some days it's 5 mins which is 30+ miles on radar.No one asked the Tower about 3 mins.I could give you 3 mins,but that a gap down the drain.
Also CDC might have transferred previous traffic to GMC north or south,and has to leap between the two to work out a delay for you.If it were a local they may not have the English skill to explain in non standard R/T.If you'd asked me ''Any delays''when I was there,I would have said ''Yes,give me 20 mins to work it out''.
So why bother with 3mins if it's tricky to achieve.It just delays more outbounds who have no flow requirements.It puts an enormous r/t load on CDC,trying to explain a useless system to bewildered pilots.
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 453
Likes: 0
Your response may make perfect sense to a controller.
I am a pilot. Why is it so difficult when asking "how long will our delay be" to get a straight, rough answer as to how long our delay will be. Roughly. Ball park.
There are several controllers that go out of thier way to keep it secret. Most dont, but I dont write the ATC roster.
I especially like it when the response is "well, they have x minutes of flow control". Great. Unless you also state the number of aircraft in line, this pearl of wisdom , along with a couple of dollars, will buy you a cup of coffee.
I am a pilot. Why is it so difficult when asking "how long will our delay be" to get a straight, rough answer as to how long our delay will be. Roughly. Ball park.
There are several controllers that go out of thier way to keep it secret. Most dont, but I dont write the ATC roster.
I especially like it when the response is "well, they have x minutes of flow control". Great. Unless you also state the number of aircraft in line, this pearl of wisdom , along with a couple of dollars, will buy you a cup of coffee.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
From: uk
OK,
I know I'm a controller and you're a pilot.If you have a lot of aircraft asking what the delay is,and you're running around scribbling red writing on strips,you don't have time to give a detailed blow by blow,up to the second reason for delay etc.Don't forget many pilot's standard of English isn't that good,and they don't understand non standard R/T.Also dead R/T time is taken up with co-ordination,and sometimes having to leave the position to figure out all this dross.
I think that many controllers faced with this would slap on 1 hour delay,but I'm sure that will improve. Or start up all and have 25mins wait at the hold,because it's flowed from the hold.I would do the latter,as it get you off blocks,and there is less chance of a missed slot.Not the HK way I can assure you.
This is where HKATC should be a little less helpful to other countries.Instead of trying to sort all this craziness on CDC,they should be concentrating on improving the movement rate at CLK.This is what happens elsewhere.
I know I'm a controller and you're a pilot.If you have a lot of aircraft asking what the delay is,and you're running around scribbling red writing on strips,you don't have time to give a detailed blow by blow,up to the second reason for delay etc.Don't forget many pilot's standard of English isn't that good,and they don't understand non standard R/T.Also dead R/T time is taken up with co-ordination,and sometimes having to leave the position to figure out all this dross.
I think that many controllers faced with this would slap on 1 hour delay,but I'm sure that will improve.
Or start up all and have 25mins wait at the hold,because it's flowed from the hold.I would do the latter,as it get you off blocks,and there is less chance of a missed slot.Not the HK way I can assure you.This is where HKATC should be a little less helpful to other countries.Instead of trying to sort all this craziness on CDC,they should be concentrating on improving the movement rate at CLK.This is what happens elsewhere.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 370
Likes: 16
From: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Your response may make perfect sense to a controller.
I am a pilot. Why is it so difficult when asking "how long will our delay be" to get a straight, rough answer as to how long our delay will be. Roughly. Ball park.
I am a pilot. Why is it so difficult when asking "how long will our delay be" to get a straight, rough answer as to how long our delay will be. Roughly. Ball park.
They are so short of staff at the moment that they are using non-ATCO rated staff on CDC. Never know- it may be the cleaner! Also, you are assuming we have a system and are aware of the delays. There is no system. There is no awareness of total delays. There is no performance measurement. There is no accountability from the top to the bottom. To many it is nothing more a Civil Service job that has been lumped in with everything else from grave diggers to pen pushers to receive staff cut-backs and multiple pay and allowance cuts. Nobody gives a toss anymore. ( except for Bedder, maybe ).
Sad really.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
From: uk
LapSap,
Tower was a huge mistery to me. Take 25 years of UK/Nats training,turn it inside out and then forget most of and you got HK tower.It a real shame that the Civil Service and CAD don't seem to give a toss anymore.Is it legal to have non Atcos working out procedural separations for live traffic.Ain't here.
Oicur12,
When i was there I wondered about slot times.A BIG CANNOT but why.Take the 3 min flow for example.CDC issues airborne slots of say 1240-1250. 3 aircraft are allowed to start for that 10min slot.The next 3 get 1250-1300 etc.Now tower are responsible for departing the traffic 3 mins apart,any order .Fine tune flowing from the hold.The advantage is that there is a steady flow of traffic,with less chance of missed slots.The pilots have an airborne time to aim at.CDC can manage the times easily and give direct answers to direct questions;or indeed the answer before the question is asked.It sounds professional instead of the Gweilo Airlines 999 + 3mins crap.You can juggle traffic around easily if one goes tech.CDC can get rid of traffic onto ground with a reaslistic target to aim at.Works with slower flow rates say 5 mins.
If they are doing that now then.
If they are not then they should try it.
Tower was a huge mistery to me.
Take 25 years of UK/Nats training,turn it inside out and then forget most of and you got HK tower.It a real shame that the Civil Service and CAD don't seem to give a toss anymore.Is it legal to have non Atcos working out procedural separations for live traffic.Ain't here.Oicur12,
When i was there I wondered about slot times.A BIG CANNOT but why.Take the 3 min flow for example.CDC issues airborne slots of say 1240-1250. 3 aircraft are allowed to start for that 10min slot.The next 3 get 1250-1300 etc.Now tower are responsible for departing the traffic 3 mins apart,any order .Fine tune flowing from the hold.The advantage is that there is a steady flow of traffic,with less chance of missed slots.The pilots have an airborne time to aim at.CDC can manage the times easily and give direct answers to direct questions;or indeed the answer before the question is asked.It sounds professional instead of the Gweilo Airlines 999 + 3mins crap.You can juggle traffic around easily if one goes tech.CDC can get rid of traffic onto ground with a reaslistic target to aim at.Works with slower flow rates say 5 mins.
If they are doing that now then.
If they are not then they should try it.
