DEC's for CX Cargo?
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Howdy 404 Titan...your writing style seems familiar...did you recently apply for a J/s off me for your spouse!? :-)
As far as I can tell, there has been nothing untoward happening on this issue. Whilst not as well informed as Titan, I am still 'more informed' than most. Yes CX advertises vacancies on bases for captains...and FOs. But they must come off the seniority list. So around 2000+ people have to say no or be unsuitable due experience or Cat B'ed before it gets to the point of having a near new joiner do his upgrade as a CN. I just flew with the ex EK guy who was a checker back in the sand pit. He is an SO...can you think of a better candidate for DEC? He is still hoping to maybe get DEFO at least.
Don't let the paranoia take over guys!
As far as I can tell, there has been nothing untoward happening on this issue. Whilst not as well informed as Titan, I am still 'more informed' than most. Yes CX advertises vacancies on bases for captains...and FOs. But they must come off the seniority list. So around 2000+ people have to say no or be unsuitable due experience or Cat B'ed before it gets to the point of having a near new joiner do his upgrade as a CN. I just flew with the ex EK guy who was a checker back in the sand pit. He is an SO...can you think of a better candidate for DEC? He is still hoping to maybe get DEFO at least.
Don't let the paranoia take over guys!
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Who's there ?
Well it is not that easy. There are people with less than two years seniority applying for and getting upgrades on the 747-400 freighter. Meanwhile there are plenty who are not getting given courses who a far more senior and equally experienced. Explain that.
The same is happening on the Classic fleet. There are some very junior officers getting command courses. However the pass rate on the classic is by far the worst in the company. The year on year average is less than 40% pass rate. I wouid not be surprised at all if FOs were doing their first course here in the left seat. I would also not be suprised if the pass rate for those individuals mirrored the fleet average. There are also no guarentees that when you have served your 8-10 years (a figure I agree with) you will be allowed to transfer immediately.
However the classic's days are numbered. Not sure if they will get another ten years out of them. You never know though, they said that ten years ago. It all depends on airframe availability, global economy, price of tea in .......well you get the picture.
Makes you think about leaving a job to come to the classic.
Besides, you are not really paranoid if someone is always after you !
Happy hill burning festival !
The same is happening on the Classic fleet. There are some very junior officers getting command courses. However the pass rate on the classic is by far the worst in the company. The year on year average is less than 40% pass rate. I wouid not be surprised at all if FOs were doing their first course here in the left seat. I would also not be suprised if the pass rate for those individuals mirrored the fleet average. There are also no guarentees that when you have served your 8-10 years (a figure I agree with) you will be allowed to transfer immediately.
However the classic's days are numbered. Not sure if they will get another ten years out of them. You never know though, they said that ten years ago. It all depends on airframe availability, global economy, price of tea in .......well you get the picture.
Makes you think about leaving a job to come to the classic.
Besides, you are not really paranoid if someone is always after you !
Happy hill burning festival !
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Five green
I suggest you let the AOA know of whom you are speaking. They could make some enquiries to ensure that commands are not being offered out of seniority.
The high failure rate almost becomes a self fulfilling thing. I heard that about 15 out of 16 guys got through on the bus and so suddenly the bus command isn't so frightening. You still have to wonder how one fleet can have such a high failure rate over the years. Just need to get management to look up "sytemic error" in their handbooks!
I suggest you let the AOA know of whom you are speaking. They could make some enquiries to ensure that commands are not being offered out of seniority.
The high failure rate almost becomes a self fulfilling thing. I heard that about 15 out of 16 guys got through on the bus and so suddenly the bus command isn't so frightening. You still have to wonder how one fleet can have such a high failure rate over the years. Just need to get management to look up "sytemic error" in their handbooks!
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And then what ?
Five green
I suggest you let the AOA know of whom you are speaking. They could make some enquiries to ensure that commands are not being offered out of seniority.
The high failure rate almost becomes a self fulfilling thing. I heard that about 15 out of 16 guys got through on the bus and so suddenly the bus command isn't so frightening. You still have to wonder how one fleet can have such a high failure rate over the years. Just need to get management to look up "sytemic error" in their handbooks!
I suggest you let the AOA know of whom you are speaking. They could make some enquiries to ensure that commands are not being offered out of seniority.
The high failure rate almost becomes a self fulfilling thing. I heard that about 15 out of 16 guys got through on the bus and so suddenly the bus command isn't so frightening. You still have to wonder how one fleet can have such a high failure rate over the years. Just need to get management to look up "sytemic error" in their handbooks!
This does not even address the FOs who are CAT C'd!
The AOA is of the opinion that there is no way to change the system in the CX training department. They are not willing to touch this issue as it is one of religious importance to the company. To question CX's "High Standards" is to question life itself. Just read some of the threads discussing this topiic earlier. You have many posters here that are convinced that there are no systemic problems. These posters are also convinced that the real problems are the candidates themselves. This attitude is also reflected in the training department.
This is why there are people taking commands out of seniority. Actually there are four levels of such routing of the seniority list. First there are FOs who take PAX command ahead of those who have been held back. Second there are the FOs that are taking freighter commands ahead of others who have (of their own choice) passed up freighter command to wait for PAX command. This is a result of the lower pay for more work scenario on the freighter. The third layer of routing occurs when FOs take freighter commands ahead of suitably senior and qualified FOs who have put their names in for command and have been passed over. Fourthly we have the new joiner rapid command candidate.
Meanwhile the training programme, at all levels is most definitely being used to further alternate agendas.
Have you had your head in the sand ?
Glad you made it through though (and I mean it, as getting a command at CX is a major accomplishment !), carry on !
Cheers
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No five green...not the sand, but I have been accused of having it up part of my own anatomy;-) But it is so far up I can still see light when I yawn!
I was on the GC a few years ago at a very interesting time...pretty much when the first Cat B's started happening. Given how 'opaque' the system is it is difficult for the AOA to fix the problem when no problem is 'visible'. Yes I know there is obviously a problem...but if it can't be identified how can we fix it? The star chamber is the ultimate in non-tranparency and total discrimination! You constanly hear of guys doing really well, then suddenly getting put in the sin bin for a year after 4 bar!? Go figure.
What I have noticed anecdotally is a very high correlation between Cat Bs and vociferous golf playing types from 2000/1...and apparently management don't like ex FEs either.
I understand your angst over junior guys getting freighter commands. But this needs to placed in context. ASL was introduced I think in 96. It was a major achievement of the GC to get freighter guys back onto our seniority list...one compromise was that the company wanted to keep freighter command pay on C(D) scales. At least freighter commands are offered to everyone within CX.
I would like to believe that the training department/star chamber are consistent across fleets...the statistics belie that assumption. How can the airbus continue to have a significantly higher failure rate than the 777. I mean, if you had the choice of which aircraft to go onto for CN and you weren't chuck yeager, you would choose the 777. So that would mean stronger, more chuck yeagerish, candidates would be left on the airbus. SO how come the failure rate stays so high on the bus vs 777?
I remember a QF mate telling me years ago that the long haul fleet had had a 100% failure rate whilst short haul(737) pass rate was almost 100%...the long haul fleet trainers just assumed that there were lower standards on the 737....not that their 9month long haul command was almost impossible to pass!
The problems are with the system...and I know it is frustrating but take it out on them not the GC. I can tell you that the GC is only as powerful as the actions the members are prepared to take....and since 2001 that isn't much!
Life is too important to be taken seriously.
PS Titan...damn...thought I had you worked out;-)
I was on the GC a few years ago at a very interesting time...pretty much when the first Cat B's started happening. Given how 'opaque' the system is it is difficult for the AOA to fix the problem when no problem is 'visible'. Yes I know there is obviously a problem...but if it can't be identified how can we fix it? The star chamber is the ultimate in non-tranparency and total discrimination! You constanly hear of guys doing really well, then suddenly getting put in the sin bin for a year after 4 bar!? Go figure.
What I have noticed anecdotally is a very high correlation between Cat Bs and vociferous golf playing types from 2000/1...and apparently management don't like ex FEs either.
I understand your angst over junior guys getting freighter commands. But this needs to placed in context. ASL was introduced I think in 96. It was a major achievement of the GC to get freighter guys back onto our seniority list...one compromise was that the company wanted to keep freighter command pay on C(D) scales. At least freighter commands are offered to everyone within CX.
I would like to believe that the training department/star chamber are consistent across fleets...the statistics belie that assumption. How can the airbus continue to have a significantly higher failure rate than the 777. I mean, if you had the choice of which aircraft to go onto for CN and you weren't chuck yeager, you would choose the 777. So that would mean stronger, more chuck yeagerish, candidates would be left on the airbus. SO how come the failure rate stays so high on the bus vs 777?
I remember a QF mate telling me years ago that the long haul fleet had had a 100% failure rate whilst short haul(737) pass rate was almost 100%...the long haul fleet trainers just assumed that there were lower standards on the 737....not that their 9month long haul command was almost impossible to pass!
The problems are with the system...and I know it is frustrating but take it out on them not the GC. I can tell you that the GC is only as powerful as the actions the members are prepared to take....and since 2001 that isn't much!
Life is too important to be taken seriously.
PS Titan...damn...thought I had you worked out;-)
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Here's the thing...
The system relies on intensive written reports. There are no limits to what can be included. Someone's idea of what is crucial is not everyone's. However once the "errors" are written up in strong language then the star chamber will lean to failure rather than extension or extra sectors.
Then of coourse there is the fact that the Star Chamber acts after your final check and not before. Why they cannot leave some responsibility with the checker I will never know.
So now the problems are identified. The beef I have with the AOA is that they are not willing to take this up with the company. Go ask them yourself and you will see.
I understand your angst over junior guys getting freighter commands. But this needs to placed in context. ASL was introduced I think in 96. It was a major achievement of the GC to get freighter guys back onto our seniority list...one compromise was that the company wanted to keep freighter command pay on C(D) scales. At least freighter commands are offered to everyone within CX.
Over to you........
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An interesting note.
When there was a Pilot DFO there were no Cat’B's.
It was a huge deal when MG got Cat B'ed by the flying DFO (GC) for signing a letter on behalf of the AOA. It was later taken off his P file by KB.
In the past, the STC gave you the 4 bars at the end of the flight and you proceeded to the bar.
There was no such thing as the Star Chamber/Review board.
It seemed to all change when the present DFO rose to power. He needed a system to keep the F/O’s inline after most went sick in ‘99, to protect the A Scalers, but that is another thread.
The AOA or the Flying Managers are not about to change it. If they try, the manager will be out on his A.s.s just like Jmac, but that is another thread. No one is to challenge the DFO.
The situation is, the present DFO is revengeful and he will use any excuse to Cat B. In the beginning, it was political, in the end it was political and somewhere in-between he made up items of flying. If you complain(legitimate or not, cockpit or bar) it will be reported to the DFO. The DFO will then consider you “not suitable to represent the company as Commander” and assign you the appropriate category.
In the past, few were past over and most got their chance at a command before the present DFO arrived. Times have changed.
As for Check and Trainers, some have their own agenda. Some may be getting revenge at the expense of the candidates due to the way they are treated by the GMA. Some may want that extension or age 60. The fleets and C& T on those fleets are vastly different.
Why do some checkers debrief and then write a different report to how you were debriefed. You are totally blind sided by the report
Some Checkers are looking at the big picture and not the trees and write the report accordingly.
Not bashing the AOA, but the GC is weak because the members are weak and the DFO has made sure of it, but that’s a different thread.
Rule by fear and intimidation.
As for seniority, what does it represent these day? The order you are accepted for staff travel, but that’s another thread.
We are in the "merit" system
It was a huge deal when MG got Cat B'ed by the flying DFO (GC) for signing a letter on behalf of the AOA. It was later taken off his P file by KB.
In the past, the STC gave you the 4 bars at the end of the flight and you proceeded to the bar.
There was no such thing as the Star Chamber/Review board.
It seemed to all change when the present DFO rose to power. He needed a system to keep the F/O’s inline after most went sick in ‘99, to protect the A Scalers, but that is another thread.
The AOA or the Flying Managers are not about to change it. If they try, the manager will be out on his A.s.s just like Jmac, but that is another thread. No one is to challenge the DFO.
The situation is, the present DFO is revengeful and he will use any excuse to Cat B. In the beginning, it was political, in the end it was political and somewhere in-between he made up items of flying. If you complain(legitimate or not, cockpit or bar) it will be reported to the DFO. The DFO will then consider you “not suitable to represent the company as Commander” and assign you the appropriate category.
In the past, few were past over and most got their chance at a command before the present DFO arrived. Times have changed.
As for Check and Trainers, some have their own agenda. Some may be getting revenge at the expense of the candidates due to the way they are treated by the GMA. Some may want that extension or age 60. The fleets and C& T on those fleets are vastly different.
Why do some checkers debrief and then write a different report to how you were debriefed. You are totally blind sided by the report
Some Checkers are looking at the big picture and not the trees and write the report accordingly.
Not bashing the AOA, but the GC is weak because the members are weak and the DFO has made sure of it, but that’s a different thread.
Rule by fear and intimidation.
As for seniority, what does it represent these day? The order you are accepted for staff travel, but that’s another thread.
We are in the "merit" system
Last edited by Mr. Bloggs; 31st Oct 2006 at 05:20.
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Five Greens
can you please excuse how i express the following thoughts...I don't want to sound patronising or as a know it all.
My experiences with management has taught me of what I like to call the 'victorian england school model of union behaviour'. That is where you don't speak unless spoken too and if you do you will get a clip behind the ear! In the view of management, the HKAOA has absolutley NOTHING to offer to the success of CX other than rubber stamping some dodgy deals to stop the boys whinging! Training is far too complicated and above teh abilities of any GC member so why let them comment on it. Now is this the view generated from the DFO or the individual fleets?
You said!
You are missing the point. What was a good move for the AOA has been lost. Now the company can bypass anyone, which results in very junior oficers getting command out of seniority. It might also interest you to know that some of the DEFO freighter offiicers that joined under the ban have now made Captain. There should be limits as to what someone can be Cat B'd for. There should also be a pre-determined time and training to get the candidate to the level required.
So what...the new AOA has no discrimination based on DOJ. The point is that guys senior didn't want to, or couldn't do these commands due categorisation problems!
You said...
However the GC has not even engaged the company on this issue. The company is loosing millions per year on training because of these outdated training methods and heavy handed checking. Surely the AOA could approach the business side of the company and suggest some improvements.
I don't mean to sound facetious but it has been tried many times always with a mirror man response...."we will look into it"
THE AOA is not on the board, nor is it in Flt Ops, nor is it the training department. Its job is to look for unfair actions that are identifiable and fixable. If CX decides that 10 or 15 guys are cat C or D how is the AOA supposed to know if that was fair or not? Five green you suggest far more power than the AOA GC has!
cheers
nc
can you please excuse how i express the following thoughts...I don't want to sound patronising or as a know it all.
My experiences with management has taught me of what I like to call the 'victorian england school model of union behaviour'. That is where you don't speak unless spoken too and if you do you will get a clip behind the ear! In the view of management, the HKAOA has absolutley NOTHING to offer to the success of CX other than rubber stamping some dodgy deals to stop the boys whinging! Training is far too complicated and above teh abilities of any GC member so why let them comment on it. Now is this the view generated from the DFO or the individual fleets?
You said!
You are missing the point. What was a good move for the AOA has been lost. Now the company can bypass anyone, which results in very junior oficers getting command out of seniority. It might also interest you to know that some of the DEFO freighter offiicers that joined under the ban have now made Captain. There should be limits as to what someone can be Cat B'd for. There should also be a pre-determined time and training to get the candidate to the level required.
So what...the new AOA has no discrimination based on DOJ. The point is that guys senior didn't want to, or couldn't do these commands due categorisation problems!
You said...
However the GC has not even engaged the company on this issue. The company is loosing millions per year on training because of these outdated training methods and heavy handed checking. Surely the AOA could approach the business side of the company and suggest some improvements.
I don't mean to sound facetious but it has been tried many times always with a mirror man response...."we will look into it"
THE AOA is not on the board, nor is it in Flt Ops, nor is it the training department. Its job is to look for unfair actions that are identifiable and fixable. If CX decides that 10 or 15 guys are cat C or D how is the AOA supposed to know if that was fair or not? Five green you suggest far more power than the AOA GC has!
cheers
nc
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Missed the mark
Numero cruncher:
Can't say I totally understand your reply.
You have however highlighted the lack of immagination and motivation that is hand cuffing the AOA.
It would seem that you echo the thinking "why try if you are going to fail anyway" when it comes to dealing with training and the company in general.
That is the most ridiculous way to approach a problem. If the GC took the issue to the company then you bring the issue out of the closet. You force the company to deal with it. You keep it in the lime light and let them know that it is not going away. Even if nothing gets fixed is it not still better to keep asking ?
We are not talking about 10 - 15 guys. The training system affects every single pilot who has not achieved "Commander" status. If the AOA was seen to be taking this issue on it would most cetainly posotively affect AOA membership successful or not. You did hit the nail on the head when you said that the AOA is in the business of looking for unfair treatment. It should not differentiate between what is possible and what is not. If it is unfair it is unfair.
It is a bit shocking that you have made "commander" here and are unaware of the realities of the pilots coming up the seniority list behind you.
I know you have the pilots best interests at heart but to give up before trying is a bit tiring. I have been here a long time and cannot recall the AOA taking the company on with regard to : failure rates, both at the command level and JFO, or the process of Categorisation prior to command, or perhaps keeping tack of howw many pilots are let goo.
I bring up the cost not because of the board of directors but because any issue that saves the company moneey must be beneficial for all concerned. That is of course if it is not about the money and say about....control and discipline....?
Can't say I totally understand your reply.
You have however highlighted the lack of immagination and motivation that is hand cuffing the AOA.
It would seem that you echo the thinking "why try if you are going to fail anyway" when it comes to dealing with training and the company in general.
That is the most ridiculous way to approach a problem. If the GC took the issue to the company then you bring the issue out of the closet. You force the company to deal with it. You keep it in the lime light and let them know that it is not going away. Even if nothing gets fixed is it not still better to keep asking ?
We are not talking about 10 - 15 guys. The training system affects every single pilot who has not achieved "Commander" status. If the AOA was seen to be taking this issue on it would most cetainly posotively affect AOA membership successful or not. You did hit the nail on the head when you said that the AOA is in the business of looking for unfair treatment. It should not differentiate between what is possible and what is not. If it is unfair it is unfair.
It is a bit shocking that you have made "commander" here and are unaware of the realities of the pilots coming up the seniority list behind you.
I know you have the pilots best interests at heart but to give up before trying is a bit tiring. I have been here a long time and cannot recall the AOA taking the company on with regard to : failure rates, both at the command level and JFO, or the process of Categorisation prior to command, or perhaps keeping tack of howw many pilots are let goo.
I bring up the cost not because of the board of directors but because any issue that saves the company moneey must be beneficial for all concerned. That is of course if it is not about the money and say about....control and discipline....?
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Five Green
points taken!
You are right...I have slipped many things into the "its too hard to fix basket". I will re-erect my standby gyro!
A friend of mine joined the Gc just after I left (against my advice;-). He thought he could use the fincancial approach to both the AOA and the company....he failed. Why? Simplistic answer to complicated situation...because management don't like the workers telling them how to do their jobs. As a manager there is no jeopardy to saying NO to every idea. As a pilot, CRM teaches us to be open to all ideas and inputs...we have a significant cultural difference between pilots and managers. We look to achieving a succesful mission...and when our number comes up, to being succesfully upgraded. There is no such 'number' system in management and their definition of a 'succesful mission' is based around their career progression, not what is in the best interests of the company!. A very intelligent ex GC colleague of mine(AG) had tried to introduce a great new rostering system into CX in the mid 90s...he failed...not because of the system but, as he said, he took too long to learn the politics.
Anyway, 5G I will keep banging my head against the wall!
About your comment "It is a bit shocking that you have made "commander" here and are unaware of the realities of the pilots coming up the seniority list behind you."....you are paritally right. When I went through almost everyone got through...if not 1st time, definitely 2nd time. But I am not impervious or uncaring about what is happening now...far from it! I do believe it is the responsibility of those who have got through to help ease the way for those that follow, in whatever way we can!
Anyway, we may use different approaches but I feel we are on the same team!
cheers
points taken!
You are right...I have slipped many things into the "its too hard to fix basket". I will re-erect my standby gyro!
A friend of mine joined the Gc just after I left (against my advice;-). He thought he could use the fincancial approach to both the AOA and the company....he failed. Why? Simplistic answer to complicated situation...because management don't like the workers telling them how to do their jobs. As a manager there is no jeopardy to saying NO to every idea. As a pilot, CRM teaches us to be open to all ideas and inputs...we have a significant cultural difference between pilots and managers. We look to achieving a succesful mission...and when our number comes up, to being succesfully upgraded. There is no such 'number' system in management and their definition of a 'succesful mission' is based around their career progression, not what is in the best interests of the company!. A very intelligent ex GC colleague of mine(AG) had tried to introduce a great new rostering system into CX in the mid 90s...he failed...not because of the system but, as he said, he took too long to learn the politics.
Anyway, 5G I will keep banging my head against the wall!
About your comment "It is a bit shocking that you have made "commander" here and are unaware of the realities of the pilots coming up the seniority list behind you."....you are paritally right. When I went through almost everyone got through...if not 1st time, definitely 2nd time. But I am not impervious or uncaring about what is happening now...far from it! I do believe it is the responsibility of those who have got through to help ease the way for those that follow, in whatever way we can!
Anyway, we may use different approaches but I feel we are on the same team!
cheers
