DEFO/Conditions of Service 2007 Hot Oil
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cpdude
...and what you propose is, in a nutshell, what should happen in my view.
But CoS07 is not penny-pinching. It's introduction would stand to save the Company alot of money over the years - even moreso if it were voted in by the AOA membership because the Company could rightly claim that we had just agreed to what represented 'market rates'.
As a result, the chances of future pay rises for existing Officers, despite there having been no pay rise for B-Scalers since 2001, would be slim.
Accordingly, some people view this issue as a defacto pay negotiation, and I cannot fault this argument.
It is wrong and counterproductive to allow the Company to introduce lesser CoS for New Joiners and I will not vote for it.
...and what you propose is, in a nutshell, what should happen in my view.
But CoS07 is not penny-pinching. It's introduction would stand to save the Company alot of money over the years - even moreso if it were voted in by the AOA membership because the Company could rightly claim that we had just agreed to what represented 'market rates'.
As a result, the chances of future pay rises for existing Officers, despite there having been no pay rise for B-Scalers since 2001, would be slim.
Accordingly, some people view this issue as a defacto pay negotiation, and I cannot fault this argument.
It is wrong and counterproductive to allow the Company to introduce lesser CoS for New Joiners and I will not vote for it.
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DEFO online voting...
Can anyone speculate as to why the start for the DEFO voting keeps getting pushed back? First it was listed to start on the 22nd, then the 25th, and now the 26th. Is that because the GC is trying to get a bit more time to convince us that it is a decent deal?
I'm chomping at the bit to vote, "NO!"
Cheers.
I'm chomping at the bit to vote, "NO!"
Cheers.
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Vote
Doesn't really matter when the vote opens. It is more important when the vote closes as you can change your vote right to the end. The vote is not meant to be tracked so means nothing until it closes and is counted.
You could try posting your question on the AOA site forum and you will get an answer direct from the GC.
Cheers
You could try posting your question on the AOA site forum and you will get an answer direct from the GC.
Cheers
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Voting
Ladies and Gentlemen,
The Online Voting is NOW OPEN.
I have already sent my NO vote in as firmly as the punch of my keyboard would allow.
I have given the AOA President and GC fair notice from the beginning that I will work to see CoS07 voted down by the most comprehensive margin possible. However, I would ask everyone, no matter how you intend to vote, to get it in either way.
We had one of the highest voter turnouts for the recent RP07 vote, and I would like the CoS07 turnout to surpass this, by way of demontrating to the Company and the AOA GC alike the level of engagement on the issue.
I maintain that it is not in anyones interest - neither the Company, the present aircrew complement, nor future colleagues - for us to vote to allow the Company to introduce CoS07.
The Online Voting is NOW OPEN.
I have already sent my NO vote in as firmly as the punch of my keyboard would allow.
I have given the AOA President and GC fair notice from the beginning that I will work to see CoS07 voted down by the most comprehensive margin possible. However, I would ask everyone, no matter how you intend to vote, to get it in either way.
We had one of the highest voter turnouts for the recent RP07 vote, and I would like the CoS07 turnout to surpass this, by way of demontrating to the Company and the AOA GC alike the level of engagement on the issue.
I maintain that it is not in anyones interest - neither the Company, the present aircrew complement, nor future colleagues - for us to vote to allow the Company to introduce CoS07.
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Vote Monitoring
Five Green
Just a small one.
You may not be aware, as most people are not, that the monitoring of the vote is allowed under the new rules. The President of the AOA can thus gauge the level of support for the issue under consideration at any given time.
If your mind is made up one way or the other, I would urge you to vote now. If the CoS07 vote goes the way I hope it will, then the President of the AOA should read the writing on the wall earlier than later.
Just a small one.
You may not be aware, as most people are not, that the monitoring of the vote is allowed under the new rules. The President of the AOA can thus gauge the level of support for the issue under consideration at any given time.
If your mind is made up one way or the other, I would urge you to vote now. If the CoS07 vote goes the way I hope it will, then the President of the AOA should read the writing on the wall earlier than later.
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If as it appears the AOA is sold on this new RP07. Just who is monitoring the electronic voting? How easy would it be to delete a few no votes and the resolution passes .
To all the A scalers reading this I trust that you all realise the the new pay scales offered in RP07 are B scales so if this passes expect a pay cut
To all the A scalers reading this I trust that you all realise the the new pay scales offered in RP07 are B scales so if this passes expect a pay cut
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If as it appears the AOA is sold on this new RP07. Just who is monitoring the electronic voting? How easy would it be to delete a few no votes and the resolution passes .
To all the A scalers reading this I trust that you all realise the the new pay scales offered in RP07 are B scales so if this passes expect a pay cut
To all the A scalers reading this I trust that you all realise the the new pay scales offered in RP07 are B scales so if this passes expect a pay cut
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More than 50% of voters were sold on RP07.
Monitoring is not "tampering with".
Join the union, they furnished members with the details of the independently administered voting process before voting started and I'm sure they'll send you a copy.
Why am I responding to an ill thought out post by a newbie probably just put there to see if he can get a bite?
Monitoring is not "tampering with".
Join the union, they furnished members with the details of the independently administered voting process before voting started and I'm sure they'll send you a copy.
Why am I responding to an ill thought out post by a newbie probably just put there to see if he can get a bite?
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Loopdeloop,
No, monitoring is not tampering with, and it is completely above board as far as the rules go. But I don't think that many people do really know that the President can access the current state of play regarding the vote on any issue.
It does give him an important tactical advantage as to how many resources to deploy to advocate the merits of the motion to the members.
Just a thought.
No, monitoring is not tampering with, and it is completely above board as far as the rules go. But I don't think that many people do really know that the President can access the current state of play regarding the vote on any issue.
It does give him an important tactical advantage as to how many resources to deploy to advocate the merits of the motion to the members.
Just a thought.
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Hong Kong and Cathay Pacific is a very "interesting" place to live and be employeed. Further more the AoA is a very interesting association.
There are so many cultural and human differences. But in many ways this association appears so desperate to get agreements with the "company" woowoo.. the "company"..
RP07, DEFO 55+ (CoS07). Face the fact, dear union. Its not good enough. In desperate times - like these. With the Asian shortage of pilots you need to get "things" in return for what you give. By the way you also need to do that in desperate times of the opposite. But dear union, you are selling out on our CoS in good time and that is so very wrong. The RP07 isolated is alright, but the problem is that you are getting f.u.c.k all in retur. You are giving without getting (or attempted to). I dont know which negotiation courses the committee have attented - but it seems to me you should attend some better ones.
Negosiate RP07, DEFO/55+ AND improvements to CoS (here under pay increase WITHOUT productivity increase!) as ONE deal - and NOT seperately - as you are doing now! Otherwise the membership will get NOTHINING in return.
Better luck next time.
Y
There are so many cultural and human differences. But in many ways this association appears so desperate to get agreements with the "company" woowoo.. the "company"..
RP07, DEFO 55+ (CoS07). Face the fact, dear union. Its not good enough. In desperate times - like these. With the Asian shortage of pilots you need to get "things" in return for what you give. By the way you also need to do that in desperate times of the opposite. But dear union, you are selling out on our CoS in good time and that is so very wrong. The RP07 isolated is alright, but the problem is that you are getting f.u.c.k all in retur. You are giving without getting (or attempted to). I dont know which negotiation courses the committee have attented - but it seems to me you should attend some better ones.
Negosiate RP07, DEFO/55+ AND improvements to CoS (here under pay increase WITHOUT productivity increase!) as ONE deal - and NOT seperately - as you are doing now! Otherwise the membership will get NOTHINING in return.
Better luck next time.
Y
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There are only a few days left before voting ends on the issue of DEFO/CoS07.
The message needs to be very clearly sent to the President and GC of the AOA that this agreement is unacceptable.
It appears that the GC does not wish to abide by the voting rules of the AOA and instead wishes to interpret the outcome of votes in accordance with it's own rationale, (look at how the GC interpreted the RP07 vote, and what action it took when it didn't like the outcome!).
If you haven't voted on th CoS07 issue yet, then get it in - either way. Personally, as I have laid out at length in this thread, I believe that we should not vote to allow the Company to introduce lesser CoS for New Joiners, and therefore this agreement needs to be voted down comprehensively.
Perhaps then the GC will actually listen to it's members.
The message needs to be very clearly sent to the President and GC of the AOA that this agreement is unacceptable.
It appears that the GC does not wish to abide by the voting rules of the AOA and instead wishes to interpret the outcome of votes in accordance with it's own rationale, (look at how the GC interpreted the RP07 vote, and what action it took when it didn't like the outcome!).
If you haven't voted on th CoS07 issue yet, then get it in - either way. Personally, as I have laid out at length in this thread, I believe that we should not vote to allow the Company to introduce lesser CoS for New Joiners, and therefore this agreement needs to be voted down comprehensively.
Perhaps then the GC will actually listen to it's members.
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There are only a few days left before voting ends on the issue of DEFO/CoS07.
The message needs to be very clearly sent to the President and GC of the AOA that this agreement is unacceptable.
It appears that the GC does not wish to abide by the voting rules of the AOA and instead wishes to interpret the outcome of votes in accordance with it's own rationale, (look at how the GC interpreted the RP07 vote, and what action it took when it didn't like the outcome!).
If you haven't voted on th CoS07 issue yet, then get it in - either way. Personally, as I have laid out at length in this thread, I believe that we should not vote to allow the Company to introduce lesser CoS for New Joiners, and therefore this agreement needs to be voted down comprehensively.
Perhaps then the GC will actually listen to it's members.
The message needs to be very clearly sent to the President and GC of the AOA that this agreement is unacceptable.
It appears that the GC does not wish to abide by the voting rules of the AOA and instead wishes to interpret the outcome of votes in accordance with it's own rationale, (look at how the GC interpreted the RP07 vote, and what action it took when it didn't like the outcome!).
If you haven't voted on th CoS07 issue yet, then get it in - either way. Personally, as I have laid out at length in this thread, I believe that we should not vote to allow the Company to introduce lesser CoS for New Joiners, and therefore this agreement needs to be voted down comprehensively.
Perhaps then the GC will actually listen to it's members.
BScaler I have listened and agreed with most of what you have been saying but I don't see the problem with extending RP04 a few months to get a better deal.
Sure, a vote is a vote and I have asked it here before but does anyone really want RP01 back? People say they want 5-4-3 back but attached with it is RP01.
So rather than bitch and moan about the GC why not give constructive ideas on what we should be doing. I don't see trying to improve RP07 as a bad plan!
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cpdude
I agree that we should be constructive about things, so here is my suggestion as to how to proceed as far as RP07 is concerned. (It is based upon the membership having voted to either; i) accept RP07, or ii) revert to the fallback agreement. In this case, the membership voted, in accordance with the rules of the association, to revert to the fallback agreement.)
Firstly we advise the Company that the outcome of the vote was to revert to the fallback agreement from January 07.
Secondly we commence negotiations to arrive at a Rostering Procedures agreement that the majority, in accordance with AOA voting rules, can live with.
Simple.
The fallback agreement is not ideal, but I believe that it is a worse proposition for the Company than it is for the average pilot. Consequently, I believe that the Company would be more motivated to negotiate better Rostering Procedures if the spectre of the fallback agreement were hanging over proceedings.
Agreeing to simply extend RP04 as an arbitrary measure does nothing to help force the issue. It simply gives the Company more breathing space and takes the pressure off them to negotiate. I don't think that is a tactic that will produce the best outcome for the aircrew body in the long run.
The negotiated outcome so reached could well be an improved version of RP07. There is no reason why negotiators should start with a blank sheet of paper. But taking the heat off the Company in a way that was not voted on, and which takes the heat off the Company to negotiate meaningfully, does not seem to me to be a good idea.
As far as being constructive about CoS07 is concerned, I cannot be, because it represents an attempt by the Company to have the aircrew body ratify the introduction of lesser CoS for their New Joiner colleagues. That is just plain wrong and it should be seen for what it is and voted down accordingly. I am very disappointed that this agreement was even put to us in the first place.
Is the AOA GC going to 'interpret' the outcome of the CoS07 vote in the same manner as it did the RP07 vote? Is there another option out there that we are not voting on that the GC has up it's sleeve as a contingency so it can bulldoze CoS07 through?
I agree that we should be constructive about things, so here is my suggestion as to how to proceed as far as RP07 is concerned. (It is based upon the membership having voted to either; i) accept RP07, or ii) revert to the fallback agreement. In this case, the membership voted, in accordance with the rules of the association, to revert to the fallback agreement.)
Firstly we advise the Company that the outcome of the vote was to revert to the fallback agreement from January 07.
Secondly we commence negotiations to arrive at a Rostering Procedures agreement that the majority, in accordance with AOA voting rules, can live with.
Simple.
The fallback agreement is not ideal, but I believe that it is a worse proposition for the Company than it is for the average pilot. Consequently, I believe that the Company would be more motivated to negotiate better Rostering Procedures if the spectre of the fallback agreement were hanging over proceedings.
Agreeing to simply extend RP04 as an arbitrary measure does nothing to help force the issue. It simply gives the Company more breathing space and takes the pressure off them to negotiate. I don't think that is a tactic that will produce the best outcome for the aircrew body in the long run.
The negotiated outcome so reached could well be an improved version of RP07. There is no reason why negotiators should start with a blank sheet of paper. But taking the heat off the Company in a way that was not voted on, and which takes the heat off the Company to negotiate meaningfully, does not seem to me to be a good idea.
As far as being constructive about CoS07 is concerned, I cannot be, because it represents an attempt by the Company to have the aircrew body ratify the introduction of lesser CoS for their New Joiner colleagues. That is just plain wrong and it should be seen for what it is and voted down accordingly. I am very disappointed that this agreement was even put to us in the first place.
Is the AOA GC going to 'interpret' the outcome of the CoS07 vote in the same manner as it did the RP07 vote? Is there another option out there that we are not voting on that the GC has up it's sleeve as a contingency so it can bulldoze CoS07 through?