What's the culture at Cathay like?
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What's the culture at Cathay like?
Hello everyone!
Wondering if I can get some feedback on this. I'm concerned about the "culture" at Cathay. I have heard that the folks at the training department don't particularly care for American pilots; that the culture there is very "old-world, stiff upper lip" British military style; that you're under the microscope all the time, even after getting hired; that you can be fired anytime if a couple of captains don't like you;that you have to be real submissive to the training/checking and line captains and thick-skinned in response to their egotistical treatment of you; that if you have strong "Republican/ Conservative" views you'll get put down; and that during training you're basically on your own - no real help during training, but lots of checking. Now, while I'm not a troublemaker nor do I get in people's faces and I'm certainly used to the American way of doing things, if someone asked me for my views I'll explain them and back them up. I'm also not a kiss-up, stroke-your-ego, I'll do whatever you want sir, especially when I know it's all an ego/personality thing. I'm not trying to cause arguments here, but I'm not sure I can handle that kind of culture and don't want to end up at a place that's not suited for me or that I'm not suited for it.
Thanks in advance for all the feedback.
Wondering if I can get some feedback on this. I'm concerned about the "culture" at Cathay. I have heard that the folks at the training department don't particularly care for American pilots; that the culture there is very "old-world, stiff upper lip" British military style; that you're under the microscope all the time, even after getting hired; that you can be fired anytime if a couple of captains don't like you;that you have to be real submissive to the training/checking and line captains and thick-skinned in response to their egotistical treatment of you; that if you have strong "Republican/ Conservative" views you'll get put down; and that during training you're basically on your own - no real help during training, but lots of checking. Now, while I'm not a troublemaker nor do I get in people's faces and I'm certainly used to the American way of doing things, if someone asked me for my views I'll explain them and back them up. I'm also not a kiss-up, stroke-your-ego, I'll do whatever you want sir, especially when I know it's all an ego/personality thing. I'm not trying to cause arguments here, but I'm not sure I can handle that kind of culture and don't want to end up at a place that's not suited for me or that I'm not suited for it.
Thanks in advance for all the feedback.
Go to the market, buy a big button and sew it to your lip for the duration of training. Remove only to say "OIC" at intervals. Read up the detail of every training trip beforehand. Everything you do will be minutely recorded. The final line check consists of four sectors unless you've made a little boo-boo sometime in the sim in which case you will do two final line checks.
If you make it to final line check, don't expect a pat on the shoulder with "OK, that'll do; now let's go and have a chat." The Star Chamber will then analyse your training record and THEY decide if you've passed or not.
Watch what you say in the company bar at Cathay City. CX managers are accustomed to a non union environment and do not take kindly to adverse comment. Do not ever throw a handful of peanuts at one.
At times the company has an unfortunate ethos and I know of some perfectly capable pilots who have left doubting their own ability to fly.
Having said all that, CX have some good, caring trainers and, If your face fits, you will be given extra sectors to learn to do it exactly 'The Cathay Way'.
They were a good career airline and top quality outfit who demand high operational standards.
Don't let me put you off - Have a go!
btw I believe they used to ask about light signals in the interview questionnaire (computer, Ballard, must answer before next Q) could be out of date on that.
If you make it to final line check, don't expect a pat on the shoulder with "OK, that'll do; now let's go and have a chat." The Star Chamber will then analyse your training record and THEY decide if you've passed or not.
Watch what you say in the company bar at Cathay City. CX managers are accustomed to a non union environment and do not take kindly to adverse comment. Do not ever throw a handful of peanuts at one.
At times the company has an unfortunate ethos and I know of some perfectly capable pilots who have left doubting their own ability to fly.
Having said all that, CX have some good, caring trainers and, If your face fits, you will be given extra sectors to learn to do it exactly 'The Cathay Way'.
They were a good career airline and top quality outfit who demand high operational standards.
Don't let me put you off - Have a go!
btw I believe they used to ask about light signals in the interview questionnaire (computer, Ballard, must answer before next Q) could be out of date on that.
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Food Chain
Training dept is fine, it is the checking department. Being American, expect low scores for your RT even if you have a degree in linguistics.
“very "old-world, stiff upper lip" British military style” that is one way of putting it. Depends on which fleet you are on. The 747-400 is the intolerable fleet for F/O’s. Numerous A**hole Capt’s on that fleet. Mostly checkers. I guess I will hear from them. Know of some F/O’s that went head on with a Senior Checker and now not suitable for command.
Remember it is a Captain’s Airline.
“Under the microscope all the time” If you join as an S/O, you will be jumping through hoops for the next 10-15 or so years (S/O, Junior F/O, F/O, Senior F/O, Capt). At any time you could be held back because of something on a Check or in the Sim. Do something wrong in the Sim (while not even your Sim), it can be marked on your file. All files are reviewed by management before upgrade, anything they don’t like, you may/will be held back. Automatic progression is not guaranteed.
Yes you can be fired at anytime. Ask the 49ers. If you have problems in the Sim on an upgrade (S/O to J F/O or joining as an S/O), you will be asked to leave. If you say something wrong or speak your mind to the wrong person you can be targeted. Example: Flying Manager picked up a wine bottle and an F/O stopped him for swinging it. Scene ensued. The last words of the Flying Manager was “I’ll have your job” and he did.
Sit there, shut up and you will be fine. You must realise, Cathay invented flying. As long as you have that attitude, you will be OK.
Don’t speak your mind, it will be held against you when you upgrade, even if your flying file is fine
“I'm not a troublemaker nor do I get in people's faces and I'm certainly used to the American way of doing things, if someone asked me for my views I'll explain them and back them up. I'm also not a kiss-up, stroke-your-ego, I'll do whatever you want sir, especially when I know it's all an ego/personality thing.”
Like I said, the 744 is the most dissatisfactory fleet followed by the Airbus. Not sure about the 777. Don’t think new joiner join on that fleet.
I am sure others have different views but the culture is, shut up, do your job. Don’t voice your opinion when at work and to whom when not at work (if you are based in Hong Kong).
Like I said, it’s a Capt’s airline. Captain’s will always receive higher marks in the Sim and on Checks than the F/O. It’s just that way.
It depends on which pair of glasses you look through and I am sure you will get different opinions. If you are on the old A Scale and get paid very well with all the benefits and a good provident fund, you will have good things to say, same if you came from a C172 and now flying a wide body.
Industrial fear is a well established at Cathay.
Oh yes, we are just in the process of cutting your pay.
Just know where you are on the food chain and you will be fine.
“very "old-world, stiff upper lip" British military style” that is one way of putting it. Depends on which fleet you are on. The 747-400 is the intolerable fleet for F/O’s. Numerous A**hole Capt’s on that fleet. Mostly checkers. I guess I will hear from them. Know of some F/O’s that went head on with a Senior Checker and now not suitable for command.
Remember it is a Captain’s Airline.
“Under the microscope all the time” If you join as an S/O, you will be jumping through hoops for the next 10-15 or so years (S/O, Junior F/O, F/O, Senior F/O, Capt). At any time you could be held back because of something on a Check or in the Sim. Do something wrong in the Sim (while not even your Sim), it can be marked on your file. All files are reviewed by management before upgrade, anything they don’t like, you may/will be held back. Automatic progression is not guaranteed.
Yes you can be fired at anytime. Ask the 49ers. If you have problems in the Sim on an upgrade (S/O to J F/O or joining as an S/O), you will be asked to leave. If you say something wrong or speak your mind to the wrong person you can be targeted. Example: Flying Manager picked up a wine bottle and an F/O stopped him for swinging it. Scene ensued. The last words of the Flying Manager was “I’ll have your job” and he did.
Sit there, shut up and you will be fine. You must realise, Cathay invented flying. As long as you have that attitude, you will be OK.
Don’t speak your mind, it will be held against you when you upgrade, even if your flying file is fine
“I'm not a troublemaker nor do I get in people's faces and I'm certainly used to the American way of doing things, if someone asked me for my views I'll explain them and back them up. I'm also not a kiss-up, stroke-your-ego, I'll do whatever you want sir, especially when I know it's all an ego/personality thing.”
Like I said, the 744 is the most dissatisfactory fleet followed by the Airbus. Not sure about the 777. Don’t think new joiner join on that fleet.
I am sure others have different views but the culture is, shut up, do your job. Don’t voice your opinion when at work and to whom when not at work (if you are based in Hong Kong).
Like I said, it’s a Capt’s airline. Captain’s will always receive higher marks in the Sim and on Checks than the F/O. It’s just that way.
It depends on which pair of glasses you look through and I am sure you will get different opinions. If you are on the old A Scale and get paid very well with all the benefits and a good provident fund, you will have good things to say, same if you came from a C172 and now flying a wide body.
Industrial fear is a well established at Cathay.
Oh yes, we are just in the process of cutting your pay.
Just know where you are on the food chain and you will be fine.
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I expected the worse when I started and wasn't disappointed.
this would be a fine company, but "training" is just a mess, it is really extremely hard to take sometimes.
the system is so unfair, you won't trust your ears in the debriefs,trust me..
keep in mind that upgrading is a gamble, if they don't like your face for whatever strange reason,you are out.
this would be a fine company, but "training" is just a mess, it is really extremely hard to take sometimes.
the system is so unfair, you won't trust your ears in the debriefs,trust me..
keep in mind that upgrading is a gamble, if they don't like your face for whatever strange reason,you are out.
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Culture in general or towards DEFO pilots?
Everything you have written is very interesting. Is this particularly towards DEFO/DESO pilots or maybe North American based pilots or everyone?
Are you also saying the upgrade to Captain/command is not necessarily by seniority order or what your seniority can hold. Correct? Management can deny your upgrade for other than documented performance? It seems a little shady.....
May I dare ask if it is aimed any one race???
Are you also saying the upgrade to Captain/command is not necessarily by seniority order or what your seniority can hold. Correct? Management can deny your upgrade for other than documented performance? It seems a little shady.....
May I dare ask if it is aimed any one race???
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DEFO’s will have hoops to jump but not as many as an DESO. CX does not discriminate on who they target. If you fail to know your place in the food chain/speak up, you will be targeted.
CX has been known to fail J/FO’s on their upgrade to F/O, just to hold them back on lower pay and less leave. The check ride was passed but the Review board found otherwise. Same goes for any upgrade.
Command upgrades are followed by seniority however when your time comes and you are not a good bitch, you will be found unsuitable for command and passed over by more junior members. This is a process to put you back in your place (on your knees bent over). Some resist but all get into position eventually.
I agree with Preset, don’t believe everything you read, especially from CX. If they are talking, they are lying.
Like I said, know your place in the food chain and you will be fine. If you can’t be a good bitch, then it may not be the place for you.
Just come in with eyes wide open.
CX has been known to fail J/FO’s on their upgrade to F/O, just to hold them back on lower pay and less leave. The check ride was passed but the Review board found otherwise. Same goes for any upgrade.
Command upgrades are followed by seniority however when your time comes and you are not a good bitch, you will be found unsuitable for command and passed over by more junior members. This is a process to put you back in your place (on your knees bent over). Some resist but all get into position eventually.
I agree with Preset, don’t believe everything you read, especially from CX. If they are talking, they are lying.
Like I said, know your place in the food chain and you will be fine. If you can’t be a good bitch, then it may not be the place for you.
Just come in with eyes wide open.
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Very interesting
Wow, I appreciate all the input... Very interesting stuff... Doesn't sound like a real happy place to work... I'm not sure that I can be "on" all the time...sounds like every day is like your initial interview... Do alot of guys leave? Have the check airmen ever lied in their critique/evaluation of someone just to trip him up?
Thanks again for all the feedback.
Thanks again for all the feedback.
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Example: Flying Manager picked up a wine bottle and an F/O stopped him for swinging it. Scene ensued. The last words of the Flying Manager was “I’ll have your job” and he did.
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So I guess there will be a few resignations soon judging by the comments and replies.
Why are you still there? Why not leave to a better airline? Why work in a job that treat you like that?
Why are you still there? Why not leave to a better airline? Why work in a job that treat you like that?
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Mr Bloggs,
You could not be more right on! Much about CX is so unique and great, it is a real pity the "eat the young" mentality fear and intimidation rule the company. I have never seen such a place, nothing like it in the US.
You could not be more right on! Much about CX is so unique and great, it is a real pity the "eat the young" mentality fear and intimidation rule the company. I have never seen such a place, nothing like it in the US.
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shame on you all, frightening the guys like this......................
Cathay is made up like any other airline...95% nice guys and a few jerks % A#*Ho%es, plus the odd psychopath. It tends to be hard for Americans because you are only accustomed to the US system which assumes everyone is a nice guy unless he try's real hard and manages to prove he's a complete dick .....................Cathay just never starts from that assumption.......................
Many people leaving.......................No
why?? ..................Money............we also make a profit every year, so you don't have to worry about being furloughed with the 7 year industry cycle
still the US industry is recovering now so no need to suffer the humiliation of the Cathay training......................till the next downturn, have fun !!!
Cathay is made up like any other airline...95% nice guys and a few jerks % A#*Ho%es, plus the odd psychopath. It tends to be hard for Americans because you are only accustomed to the US system which assumes everyone is a nice guy unless he try's real hard and manages to prove he's a complete dick .....................Cathay just never starts from that assumption.......................
Many people leaving.......................No
why?? ..................Money............we also make a profit every year, so you don't have to worry about being furloughed with the 7 year industry cycle
still the US industry is recovering now so no need to suffer the humiliation of the Cathay training......................till the next downturn, have fun !!!
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People leaving? - yes, some are, not a lot - prob more to do so in the future. Why are they leaving? For a variaty of reasons of course. One reasons without doubt is the fact that CX is more checking than training - and yes CX is MORE checking than training compared to other airlines. Eg. the high number of failures during upgrades (the dudes have not gained enough positive training but rather negative "training" through checking) - sad, yes. CX would be such a better airline if they entered year 1980+ and changed the current philosophy, which simply does not belong in aviation.
Hong Kong, Polution, prob also a factor - though Im not personally to bugged about that.
So why are they staying? Pay is ok, but nothing out of the ordinary compared to the "national" carrier in Europe (prob also the US). Also a lot of the pilots in CX are from down under, where the pilotjobs are ****ty rewarded, and for them the CX deal is the best around (not a million miles from "home").
Anyways - dont leave (quit!) a fairly good job - but if not, definatly have a go here and judge it for yourself.
Best of luck
Y
Hong Kong, Polution, prob also a factor - though Im not personally to bugged about that.
So why are they staying? Pay is ok, but nothing out of the ordinary compared to the "national" carrier in Europe (prob also the US). Also a lot of the pilots in CX are from down under, where the pilotjobs are ****ty rewarded, and for them the CX deal is the best around (not a million miles from "home").
Anyways - dont leave (quit!) a fairly good job - but if not, definatly have a go here and judge it for yourself.
Best of luck
Y
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Originally Posted by sizematters
shame on you all, frightening the guys like this......................
C
C
If the truth is scary, so be it. If you don't recognise the extreme absurtity of this company culture, you have only flown military or have lived with a raging alcoholic father (probably both).
If you are military, you wont feel the heat as you slide into a warming pot of water. You will be somewhat used to being jerked around, and childish politics driven by fragile egos (probably a good part of why you left the military in the first place!). It won't seem so bad because you will be getting more pay and have more time off. Remember, at this point in your career, you are probably looking for your final job, the rest of your life is a long time to sit in a boiling pot!
If dear old dad liked the booze a bit too much and had the indiscriminate temper explosion, you will feel right at home. You probably are used to pussy footing around the house, grateful that when a sibling is taking a beating the heat is off you, but never knowing when your next arse kicking is coming. If you were the step child of the family, you probably took more abuse than most. At CX this unfortunate soul is called a "Yank".
Yes, there are some great people in the training (checking!) department at CX. They, just like good old mom, will occasionally save your bacon, but sooner or later dad will find you.
It's not all doom and gloom. Put on a happy face, show proper respect, don't complain, and readily massage the ego of those training you , and you will probably be ok. Just remember you're in the cage with a gorilla while in training (which never ends here), and you are going to have to kick its proverbial arse. Oh, yeah, hope for a small gorilla.
Just don't screw it up, because if you decide to return to the mother land at some point the interviewers in the US have never experienced the "Cathay Way", and won't readily overlook a blemish in an otherwise impeccable record.
Last edited by hog tied; 28th Jul 2006 at 16:57.
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I will say that the training at Cathay is very outdated. The regional US carrier were I worked for some time had ten times better training. Cathay definetely needs to open their eyes if they expect to grow to the size of a real airline. This small time bull****t mentality is just not going to cut it.
But, talk to guys that have been here for a while, and they will tell you how bad it used to be. So, seek comfort in knowing that it is changing for the better. The airline IS growing, and therefore can not afford to hang on to this silly immature training environment. These same old "famous" assholes that everybody knows of will have to eventually retire and new blood will step in and improve the training department.
As bad as some people make this place out to be, I caution you to listen to both sides of the story. That is the best advise I can give you. Every story has two sides. I can guarantee you that you will only hear one side of it from this web-board. It would be pretty hard to hear the other side unless you were there during one of these "horror" training stories, or you knew someone in the training department. I've also heard some stories which amazed me, but you won't hear them told here either.
Someone did ask a very smart question in this thread; how many people are leaving Cathay? I dare anyone who works here to provide proof of so many pilots leaving Cathay. The attrition here is just about nil (excluding retirements). And that speaks for itself.
But, talk to guys that have been here for a while, and they will tell you how bad it used to be. So, seek comfort in knowing that it is changing for the better. The airline IS growing, and therefore can not afford to hang on to this silly immature training environment. These same old "famous" assholes that everybody knows of will have to eventually retire and new blood will step in and improve the training department.
As bad as some people make this place out to be, I caution you to listen to both sides of the story. That is the best advise I can give you. Every story has two sides. I can guarantee you that you will only hear one side of it from this web-board. It would be pretty hard to hear the other side unless you were there during one of these "horror" training stories, or you knew someone in the training department. I've also heard some stories which amazed me, but you won't hear them told here either.
Someone did ask a very smart question in this thread; how many people are leaving Cathay? I dare anyone who works here to provide proof of so many pilots leaving Cathay. The attrition here is just about nil (excluding retirements). And that speaks for itself.
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Sqwak7700:Someone did ask a very smart question in this thread; how many people are leaving Cathay? I dare anyone who works here to provide proof of so many pilots leaving Cathay. The attrition here is just about nil (excluding retirements). And that speaks for itself.
Watch this space Sqwak7700... lots gonna be going.... and lots not going to be coming either....
Watch this space Sqwak7700... lots gonna be going.... and lots not going to be coming either....
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Thanks for the info - not interested in CX anymore
Hi,
Thank you for all the responses... Looks like I really hit a nerve... Based on what I have read, and I know there are two sides to every story and to take things with a grain of salt, but I'm not going to my 2nd interview with CX... I don't think I'll be happy dealing with all the **** everyone has talked about... I have a descent job with plenty of seniority and union protection here in the U.S., and I'm making money also. Don't want to take any unnecessary risks. Again, thanks for all the info and good luck to everyone!
Thank you for all the responses... Looks like I really hit a nerve... Based on what I have read, and I know there are two sides to every story and to take things with a grain of salt, but I'm not going to my 2nd interview with CX... I don't think I'll be happy dealing with all the **** everyone has talked about... I have a descent job with plenty of seniority and union protection here in the U.S., and I'm making money also. Don't want to take any unnecessary risks. Again, thanks for all the info and good luck to everyone!