What's the culture at Cathay like?

[sizematters]

OK, guys, well done, frightened him off no problem, back to the bar for a few celebratory beers................don't want any of them american w@#kers joining our exclusive, overpaid club now do we .................................


hahahahah !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HotDog]

jett15, I would seriously question the value of union protection in US aviation.

[ERJDCA]

Jett15,

As an american here at CX i will add my two cents. I would have to agree with Sqwak7700 and Sizematters. The other Gents on this board have a few points but by reading their posts they lead you to believe this place is terrible. It reminds me when i used to ride in a United or Delta jumpseat and listen to the guys complain when i was a regional guy. Its not a bad place and personally i would leave almost any U.S. flying jobs-especially any regional job! It does in fact have its differences from what you are use too. Its a much more disciplined operation. I wouldn't be walking around running your mouth off. I have not had any problems with any trainers/checkers or have been treated differently. Their are a few to watch for but you tell me an airline that doesn't? My grades have not been below anyone, infact i have done quite well and have been above average on most. Yes, upgrades depend on past performance so prepare yourself! They expect a lot from you so just put in a little work. Its worth it.

I would too like to know what guys are leaving and to where?? What is considered a superb job these days? Anything tied with aviation is vulnerable however i think i can expect to have a job in 10 years and make a very respectable living. Where are the paycuts i keep hearing about?? Im not one to believe everything i hear but its been publicly stated that once the issues have been ironed out with the DEFO's the company will talk pay. I hope that to be true but im not going to be walking around ranting pay cuts because i dont see it to be possible to accept. And yes, i know the past.

Jett15, you have to do what is best for you but making a decision on not attending the second interview based on a few pprune posts is just out right silly. Feel free to PM.

Good luck.

[Mink]

Couldn't agree more. I don't work there, have not even interviewed (was offered, but had to turn it down due to military commitments). But to pass up the offer of a 2nd round interview based on some internet ranting and raving is nuts. Hell, if nothing else, consider it a free trip to HK and a chance to practice your interviewing skills in, what appears to be, one of the most challenging interviews in the business. You'd pay big bucks to some outfit like AirInc for that kind of practice in the US.

You never know what might happen, especially given the current $hitstorm in the Mid East. You might just get the job, and might actually want to take it, if the US airline industry take another header. Just seems like you're passing up a golden opportunity. Of course, if you're that luke warm on working there, then CX will probably pick up on that in the interview anyway...

[Saturn]

My two cents as well

I think now that things are starting to turn around in the US, some of our "boys" might have had enough and might "return" to where they once came. Some might return to the left seat and that is BASED ON SENIORITY. Some will get widebody seats with their seniority back and be commanders in a few years. Some might leave for others that are hiring. I know some that are presently interviewing elsewhere. I think most of the "yanks" are waiting to see what comes from RP04/07, growth talks and the pay scale. I venture to say that there will never be mass exodus but there will be exodus by next year. As skibeagle said on page 1, keep watching this site. Things have to get better and in the check and training as well.

[Kitsune]

For a little sanity try reading j32drivers post in the NWApilots wife thread...

[ACMS]

Holy Shi* do I work for the same airline?
I guess the 777 fleet is the best.
There are bad apples in any airline, we have a few but the majority are really good.
One of my pet hates is the yanks R/T, they do have rather a slack RT discipline, that works fine in the US but it doesn't cut it in Asia with up to 4 different nationalities in the flight deck talking to Tokyo control. Standard calls thanks.
................

[Jumbonomore]

Must be check and training talking. Now, is that "flap" or "flaps" 1/5/10/20/30. Is that 'final' or 'finals'. Standard??? If Cathay is 'standard' or has standard sop's, a lot has changed since I left. Note: Yanks singled out again. Oh well. I can't tell you how much better my life is without CX check and training; I mean checking. Carry on.

[Glacier1900]

I must ask; much of the world sees Canada and the US as the same. Are Canadians seen in the same light as Yanks in CX?

[Sqwak7700]

Originally Posted by ACMS

One of my pet hates is the yanks R/T, they do have rather a slack RT discipline, that works fine in the US but it doesn't cut it in Asia with up to 4 different nationalities in the flight deck talking to Tokyo control. Standard calls thanks.
................

...You're right. Some Japanese controller is gona get into a pronunciation argument when they have no clue on how to pronounce most english words themselves. Get a f-ing clue.

Where do you fly? ...Must belong to the "mandaitory" crowd. Brits and Aussies teaching Americans/Canadians how to speak english is like learning about sex from your parents. They might have been shagging since before you where born, but it certainly doesn't mean that they do it better.

Think about this logicaly. Most of the world has no problem understanding the American English. It is the most widely spoken version. Get used to it and get over it. Jumping on some guy because he says "point" instead of "decimal" is idiotic. It makes you sound like the ass that you probably are. Let me guess, you go down to the bar and talk about what a great pilot you are? Actually, I take that back; you probably stay in your room and read Vol2P2 so you can regurgitate useless information to the other crew members on your next flight.

It cracks me up when these "RT wizes" get pissed off at pilots who check in with "hello" or "goodmorning". It is called C-R-M; maybe you'll hear of it in the future when you decide to join the rest of the world in implementing a concept that real airlines adopted back in the eighties.

Here is a "mandatory" english lesson for you. In the States we would call people like you "book smart". You can spit out all sorts of useless crap. But when the fitt hits the shan, you are the type that will crash with the book in your lap.

[HotDog]

7700, how instructive, you are so right. I have actually learnt a lot from Americans about speaking the English language. Especially from your esteemed president Dubya. What marvellous CRM that gentleman posesses.

They might have been shagging since before you where born, but it certainly doesn't mean that they do it better

Talk about shagging, I reminis with great fondness on several past type conversions in the US of A where this lovely American lady enquired of me; "honey, have you slimed yet". Alas, she had a big fanny, which is again a different perception in the land of the free.

Ah yes, I do miss that yankee drawl. Herbs are erbs, solder is soder, colour is color and my good friend Cecil is called Ceecil. I also remember being mugged in the car park of the LAX Marriott Hotel, where I was told after relinquishing my wallet to "Have a good day". Great CRM.

[BuzzBox]

Judging by the arrogance of SQWAK's post it's not hard to see why some yanks have a hard time at CX.

Most of the world has no problem understanding the American English. It is the most widely spoken version.

Yeah, right...

Jumping on some guy because he says "point" instead of "decimal" is idiotic.

The "point" is that "decimal" is the correct ICAO terminology, used by most of the world outside the good ole US of A. The yanks might get away with non-ICAO terminology within their own borders - it doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow.

[HotDog]

F-CUX, the British Empire may be dead but the breeding remains.

[Sqwak7700]

Originally Posted by BuzzBox

Judging by the arrogance of SQWAK's post it's not hard to see why so many yanks have a hard time at CX.
Yeah, right...
The "point" is that "decimal" is the correct ICAO terminology, used by most of the world outside the good ole US of A. The yanks might get away with non-ICAO terminology within their own borders - it doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow.

...Actually, most of the world doesn't give a ****t about such stupid little details. And, its only a few anal loosers at CX that have made a habbit out of harrasing pilots on RT. Most CX pilots see through that crap and act like we all should . But there always has to be someone that has to prove to everybody how much of an ass they really are. Every airline has them, CX isn't the only place where they exist. These are the same people who will probably scream at their co-workers when they screw up. I can just hear you now; "...This is how the book tells you to do it..." Nothing new here

I've flown in many places around the world, and as long as we all understand each other, nobody really gets all bent out of shape about it.

[sisyphos]

working in china and complaining about non standard rt of americans at the same time is just another fine example how lost some of our guys are.

By concentrating on absolutely useless , irrelevant stuff, we at cx constantly waste a good part of our capacity ,which might be urgently needed elsewhere.

I never worked for an airline before where the pilots were so scared about doing something wrong, avoiding reporting of incidents at all cost as a result. But is it really that hard to understand that fear doesn't enhance performance ???

This training department has just one goal : to show how important there are.

But why is it an undisputable fact that there are so many airlines out there with a zero accident history AND a training department that doesn't put it's pilot under constant artificial threat ?

why is it that we have the highest upgrade/newjoiners failure rate AND well above industry average experienced guys joining at the same time ?


My suggestion would be that it is a great disadvantage that our DFO is not a pilot himself. There is simply no one within the organisation who is checking the checkers.

[Obscurum per obscurius]

As an Englishman who was lucky enough to learn to fly in America and as a Training Captain with CX, I am astonished by the B.S. I see spouted on this thread.

Some of the finest pilots I have ever had the pleasure to fly with and learn from are Americans, who will be equally astonished by the stupidity of what is being written by these so called professionals complaining about CX culture.

Here at Cathay we do things in a set way - by the book. If you don't, it exposes you, not necessarily as a bad pilot but as an ill-disciplined pilot.

Does saying "flaps" or "flap" or "decimal" or "point" make you a better or worse pilot - NO, but given the choice of the two why not take the more disciplined option? What are YOU trying to prove?

Why is it important, hopefully you already know the answer? If not then I highly recommend Lt. Col. Tony Kern's book "Flight Discipline". Have a look at his chapters on Procedural Discipline and Communications Discipline. You might learn why we do it the way we do, and by the way, the author is American..

All the training/check Captains I know in CX have one goal and one goal only; to get the trainee through successfully and fairly, believe me no one wants to write a negative training report.

So to any Americans out there considering joining - go for it, don't listen to the minority come and show us that they are the minority. I for one look forward to having a beer with you and congratulating you on building the best damn aeroplanes in the world!!

[junior_man]

Taipei controllers consistently say point instead of decimal, last flight into HKG, HKG controllers: point, not decimal.
Tokyo, point, not decimal, taxi into position & hold. Most all say good bye or good day. I keep hearing "cleared" to push (not pushback approved).
I like never asking for pilot reports on ride conditions. It is much smarter to climb up to the new altitude and get a crummy ride, then descend back down again, than to ask the guy up there getting a pounding what the ride was like. A good example of CRM that is.
Many things out here are not ICAO and it isn't just the Yanks.

Yes, there are some differences in the USA. Just like there are differences in many other ICAO countries. And, they are published, just like in other countries for you to read if you want to be prepared.
US is a bit different as there is much much more flying there. There are almost 19,000 airports in the US. 9,300 Air Carrier Jet aircraft and about 208,000 airplanes. Fresno has as many runways as LHR. One week out of the year there are more airplanes in Oshkosh Wisconsin than probably in all the EU.

But, when you climb into the US made 747 (I know you would really rather be in a 146), break out you US Jepps, get your PDC clearance and ATIS over Acars (all US) depart HKG while TDWR (US) watches over the weather, if it makes you feel better to bitch about America, do it. Generally this is known as xenophobia (except in the case of complaining about Dubya, then it is just good judgement).

Sure there are some dummies in the US. But, I don't think those drunks watching the "footie" over in the UK read Shakespeare when they sober up either. There are dummies everywhere.

When you complain about how bad the US is, how much have you actually seen? LAX, Maybe Vegas and a NY layover or two? Most of the complainers don't know anymore about the US than a redneck who watches the East Enders knows about the UK. So you watch "Cops" and think that is reality. Okay.

Don't like GW? Unlike Tony Blair, most Americans don't like him either and he didn't exactly win by a landslide. Don't like the current way the world is going? Neither do a lot of people. Think it is only the USA that behaves like that? Read a little history, things about colonial rule, what part of the world the last two world wars was started in, Ireland, the opium wars etc.. Every country has done things that weren't exactly right.

Now go visit the US. Go out to an airport and meet some pilots. Go meet a few airline crews. They probably will not start out telling you that you sound funny on the radio, and how Americans are much better pilots than your countrymen. Most of the Aussies, Kiwis and Brits are friendly too. Most are usually fairly well mannered. There are a few though, whose manners are poor. They think that it is polite to start out by insulting somebody elses country, telling him (or her) how bad every person and pilot from that land is and how much better and vastly superior the flying skills are of their countrymen. Maybe it makes those few feel smarter or superior. It really doesn't make you smarter or a better pilot, but whatever you think.

As far as Cathay, it is a great place to work. (Started by an American and an Australian with an American Airplane.) Just like any other airline, there are a few whose people skills are poor. But it is a good place to be. And, just like any other good airline, you are expected to do things the way they ask you to. No different than in the US or the UK.

Oh, and I am not a Yank either, just brought up to have decent manners by my parents.

[757manipulator]

All the training/check Captains I know in CX have one goal and one goal only; to get the trainee through successfully and fairly, believe me no one wants to write a negative training report.

With respect to that last comment, I am personally aware of at least 4 training/check Captains (Both HK, and UK Based) who have a well deserved reputation for having more than one goal..as you have prescribed, their actions rather than your sugar-coated description of the ethos at CX defies anecdotal as well as personal experience.
Perhaps rather than say CX operates in a "disciplined" fashion, it would be more accurate to describe the check and training function as "old school" or even "archiac"
As a new SO/FO/DEFO know your place...know that you know nothing, understand you are the bottom of the heap, know that CX aeroplanes fly differently to the ones (B777's and A330's) that you previously flew

[geh065]

Now now, play nice children.

[SkyCruiser]

Originally Posted by 757manipulator

With respect to that last comment, I am personally aware of at least 4 training/check Captains (Both HK, and UK Based) who have a well deserved reputation for having more than one goal..as you have prescribed, their actions rather than your sugar-coated description of the ethos at CX defies anecdotal as well as personal experience.
Perhaps rather than say CX operates in a "disciplined" fashion, it would be more accurate to describe the check and training function as "old school" or even "archiac"

yes yes yes