Age 60 and DEFO's
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: home
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Age 60 and DEFO's
We have asked all our senior pilots who wanted to work beyond the age of 55 on this new extension contract and all but a handful said yes. The extension contract is B scale with no housing, schooling, travel fund, or medical benefits.
Bypass pay is not being paid as we keep a float of pilots on Cat B status (presently not suitable for command) no bypass while on Cat B status and the rest are uncategorized and you don’t receive bypass pay if you uncategorized. When you are Cat A’d (suitable for command) you usually have a course rather soon; stopping or reducing bypass pay significantly.
We are only giving the AOA a red herring when we say we want to talk about age 60. We are trying to keep the AOA busy while we are planning our next assault i.e. RP 04 is voted down. If this happens, we will have RP 07 ready to be put in your mailbox, and maybe along with another contract
This has been done in the past and has worked to some extend in ‘99 and I know with 100% certainty it would work to the full extent this time. If we don’t threaten you with a new contract, there will be another contract for employees post April 2007 i.e. for DEFO’s.
Age 60 is here, in case you didn’t notice.
Direct Entry First Officers
All current F/O’s will be offered bases and all other slots on bases will be filled by DE F/O’s from whoever has the right to work in that country. They will not be allowed to transfer to HKG until their command and will have to take a base when a slot becomes available when their command is finished. All F/O based slots will be filled and eventually all Command Based slots will be filled.
We haven’t quite figured out how we can hire DE Capt’s, but I am sure we have our think tanks on it. These new DE F/O’s can be given fast track commands by Cat B’ing Hong Kong based F/O’s and have these new DEF/O’s take a command to base sooner. This would be our 5-10 year plan and we can get these command-based slots filled.
RP04, we are already planning what will happen if this is voted down and I don’t think it will be in your favor.
As for a pay rise................ You will be extremely lucky to hold onto what you have.
You should be very angry at these new DEFO’s as they are lowering your COS, it is not our blame.
We love your senior pilots; they will work for virtually nothing. We wish we had more.
The Management
Bypass pay is not being paid as we keep a float of pilots on Cat B status (presently not suitable for command) no bypass while on Cat B status and the rest are uncategorized and you don’t receive bypass pay if you uncategorized. When you are Cat A’d (suitable for command) you usually have a course rather soon; stopping or reducing bypass pay significantly.
We are only giving the AOA a red herring when we say we want to talk about age 60. We are trying to keep the AOA busy while we are planning our next assault i.e. RP 04 is voted down. If this happens, we will have RP 07 ready to be put in your mailbox, and maybe along with another contract
This has been done in the past and has worked to some extend in ‘99 and I know with 100% certainty it would work to the full extent this time. If we don’t threaten you with a new contract, there will be another contract for employees post April 2007 i.e. for DEFO’s.
Age 60 is here, in case you didn’t notice.
Direct Entry First Officers
All current F/O’s will be offered bases and all other slots on bases will be filled by DE F/O’s from whoever has the right to work in that country. They will not be allowed to transfer to HKG until their command and will have to take a base when a slot becomes available when their command is finished. All F/O based slots will be filled and eventually all Command Based slots will be filled.
We haven’t quite figured out how we can hire DE Capt’s, but I am sure we have our think tanks on it. These new DE F/O’s can be given fast track commands by Cat B’ing Hong Kong based F/O’s and have these new DEF/O’s take a command to base sooner. This would be our 5-10 year plan and we can get these command-based slots filled.
RP04, we are already planning what will happen if this is voted down and I don’t think it will be in your favor.
As for a pay rise................ You will be extremely lucky to hold onto what you have.
You should be very angry at these new DEFO’s as they are lowering your COS, it is not our blame.
We love your senior pilots; they will work for virtually nothing. We wish we had more.
The Management
Last edited by The Management; 25th Apr 2006 at 05:01.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually we HAVE figured out how to take D/E Captains........did you not see our advert in Flight International ??? Direct Entry F/O....Rapid Command ???
you see what happens is that we take experienced Captains and they join as an F/O then after they have completed ground school and a few other bits we say, "well done, your promoted to Captain" then stick them in the left hand seat for the simulator training until they check out......................
Of course, we are only doing this on the Classic at the moment as we have lots of 55 year old retiree's who we cycle from the -400 pax fleet to the -400 Freighter.........................thereby filling nearly all the vacant slots
lets face it the AoA is a joke, what with only about 49% membership, whats the secret one called, ah, yes, the Cathay Pilots Union, as well, the AoA is so busy trying to sort it's own problems out it couldn't negotiate it's way into a free concert without having to pay 3 years back subscriptions.................................
Can you imagine if I called the Automobile association and said, "hey, I'd like to join".......would they really say, "But you were a member in 1995, you'll have to pay 11 years worth of arrears of membership"
I tell you, talk about suffer from delusions.............................they ain't even on the bench, let alone in the game !!!!!
you see what happens is that we take experienced Captains and they join as an F/O then after they have completed ground school and a few other bits we say, "well done, your promoted to Captain" then stick them in the left hand seat for the simulator training until they check out......................
Of course, we are only doing this on the Classic at the moment as we have lots of 55 year old retiree's who we cycle from the -400 pax fleet to the -400 Freighter.........................thereby filling nearly all the vacant slots
lets face it the AoA is a joke, what with only about 49% membership, whats the secret one called, ah, yes, the Cathay Pilots Union, as well, the AoA is so busy trying to sort it's own problems out it couldn't negotiate it's way into a free concert without having to pay 3 years back subscriptions.................................
Can you imagine if I called the Automobile association and said, "hey, I'd like to join".......would they really say, "But you were a member in 1995, you'll have to pay 11 years worth of arrears of membership"
I tell you, talk about suffer from delusions.............................they ain't even on the bench, let alone in the game !!!!!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bob Tandy's place boozing with Darryl Hill
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice try trying divert this thread and attack the AOA to take the pressure off the 9th floor!
The AOA is in a royal mess, just where management want them to be - "but we are in constructive dialogue" so that should make us all feel 'better'.
Lets have another thread for the AOA's inefficiencies and leave this one for more pressing issues - getting reamed
The AOA is in a royal mess, just where management want them to be - "but we are in constructive dialogue" so that should make us all feel 'better'.
Lets have another thread for the AOA's inefficiencies and leave this one for more pressing issues - getting reamed
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
constructive dialogue ??? with who ??? Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck ??? How long have you been having these Disney Spells ???
If you want, "Constructive Dialogue" get the AoA to accept that CX is going to grow the airline by whatever means neccessary, age 60, DEFO's on the Pax fleet, inevitable.......................get something in exchange now rather than the usual, hang on for a worse offer...........................
If you want, "Constructive Dialogue" get the AoA to accept that CX is going to grow the airline by whatever means neccessary, age 60, DEFO's on the Pax fleet, inevitable.......................get something in exchange now rather than the usual, hang on for a worse offer...........................
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will it ever end???
Well, the AOA is only as strong as its members. I am not happy with the AOA, things need to change within before the AOA can move forward.
Seems the Senior pilots who complained B Scale were lowering the COS has no merit. As in '99, they just wanted someone else to fight their fight and someone to blame. We now see where the problem exists.
As for the new contract changes............. it is open for debate.
It seems the more we assist the company, the more profit share we procure.
Don’t believe we will see a pay increase and don’t expect a 13 month this year. Fuel prices are too high and we need to budget for the 10 month salary bonuses for our managers.
We have to help out where we can, so we may as well take it from the pockets of our junior pilots, in the form of bypass pay.
Hey it doesn’t affect me!
What happens if we allow the extensions on the lower COS? Where do you think the COS will tend to trend?
If it materialises by way of voting, their is no one to blame but you.
There is provisions in our contract to hire DEFO’s, please abide by the contract. Whenever a piece of the contract is not of their liking they wish to change it. What do you get in return, 30 days free reserve and a promise. I have heard those promises before.
When do you think it will stop? If it ever will.
It is time to say no, or forever be kneeling with your begging bowl. Seems most people don’t mind being on their knees.
Seems the Senior pilots who complained B Scale were lowering the COS has no merit. As in '99, they just wanted someone else to fight their fight and someone to blame. We now see where the problem exists.
As for the new contract changes............. it is open for debate.
It seems the more we assist the company, the more profit share we procure.
Don’t believe we will see a pay increase and don’t expect a 13 month this year. Fuel prices are too high and we need to budget for the 10 month salary bonuses for our managers.
We have to help out where we can, so we may as well take it from the pockets of our junior pilots, in the form of bypass pay.
Hey it doesn’t affect me!
What happens if we allow the extensions on the lower COS? Where do you think the COS will tend to trend?
If it materialises by way of voting, their is no one to blame but you.
There is provisions in our contract to hire DEFO’s, please abide by the contract. Whenever a piece of the contract is not of their liking they wish to change it. What do you get in return, 30 days free reserve and a promise. I have heard those promises before.
When do you think it will stop? If it ever will.
It is time to say no, or forever be kneeling with your begging bowl. Seems most people don’t mind being on their knees.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
couldn't agree more
None of this negotiation makes any sense. The pilots already have a contract and could be perfectly happy to leave it as is. The company has the issue of trying to minimize its costs by eliminating bypass pay. This round of negotating has nothing to do with speed of training or crewing Cx planes and everything to do with cost cutting. Profitable growth of the airline is in everyone's best interest, but there must be give and take. If the pilots give up bypass, what do they recieve? If an S/O has to stay in the back seat for 2 more years, what is their benefit in the end?
Why does it take almost no time to train a direct entry F/O and so long to train an S/O to JFO upgrade? Maybe the training system can be revised to shorten these times and costs. Why can't new training Captains be made to replace those that retire instead of extending? Why should an extending Captain have to take a reduction in CoS to continue on to help the company expand faster?
I guess I just don't see the pilots being offered anything in exchange for having their career progression slowed by a few years.The Training Captains are already being extended. Eliminating bypass pay does not change the efficiency of the training dept. It only improves the companies profit margin, while slowing every pilots career.
Why does it take almost no time to train a direct entry F/O and so long to train an S/O to JFO upgrade? Maybe the training system can be revised to shorten these times and costs. Why can't new training Captains be made to replace those that retire instead of extending? Why should an extending Captain have to take a reduction in CoS to continue on to help the company expand faster?
I guess I just don't see the pilots being offered anything in exchange for having their career progression slowed by a few years.The Training Captains are already being extended. Eliminating bypass pay does not change the efficiency of the training dept. It only improves the companies profit margin, while slowing every pilots career.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: .
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They ordered the a/c, they have to crew the a/c.
In that time honoured Hong Kong method, I suggest they fling money at the problem till it goes away.
As a number of posters have said, we have a jim dandy contract thanks. Either leave it alone, or if you want to change it show us the wonga.
Roll on voting for RP06
In that time honoured Hong Kong method, I suggest they fling money at the problem till it goes away.
As a number of posters have said, we have a jim dandy contract thanks. Either leave it alone, or if you want to change it show us the wonga.
Roll on voting for RP06
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: London
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Am I missing something! PW's 'growth' issue of Pravda starts off commenting on the need to address the age discrimination issue then blindly goes on to propose a significantly reduced package for anyone continuing beyond age 55. Duh!
Memo to Management re new a/c crewing, rp04, S/O's etc: you made your bed now you're going to have to lie in it. I for one am fed up with paying for the incompetence.
Memo to Management re new a/c crewing, rp04, S/O's etc: you made your bed now you're going to have to lie in it. I for one am fed up with paying for the incompetence.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Latest News Crews
If no one is being held back from upgrade, then the current contract will suffice and no bypass pay will be paid , so there is no reason to remove bypass pay from our contract.
If the airline is going to expand rapidly, you can go from 55 direct to 60. Does it matter if it develops in 2 year stages?
“In the absence of an agreement, bypass pay will continue, as it is a contractual obligation”. Leave it Status Quo.
If the Senior pilots want to work on lower conditions, well, they will do so, irrelevant of how is affects the COS, they always have. Makes it more difficult for the rest of the pilots at CX.
CX has to take care of the Senior Pilots C&T on extension by offering them and increased housing until 2009. Does not help the junior pilots or pilots reaching the age of 55 beyond 2009.
As said before, CX can hire DEFO’s tomorrow. They just have to pay year 1 F/O passenger wages and benefits. I don’t see a problem with that.
It will be a matter of luck if new hires obtain F/O on the pass or the freighters. CX understands they will never get another application for the freighter if they hire DEFO’s under the current contract. If a new DEFO is hired on pass pay and benefits, they will never receive another application for the freighter, unless the freighter F/O’ are at par with the pass F/O’s , hence the new UNIFIED pay scale for F/O’s, no money in freight you know.
Kick me if I am wrong, but did we not have a unified freighter/passenger pay scale, say.............. about 10 years ago? I must be mistaken.
In my opinion, it is now time for CX to deal with the mess they made 10 years ago. Does anyone need a history lesson?
If the F/O’s have a unified pay scale, then why not the Captains?
“These changes only apply to new crew” and “no-one would have their existing conditions changed against their will”. Basically, a new contract for new joiners and “against their will”, no it comes in the form “sign or be fired”.
As PW is true to forum, he continues to make threats to the crew body. Some things never change.
New S/O’s, join while you can because this rank will be eliminated in the very long term. You will be an S/O for a long time, but at least you have a CX number. It will be some time before a window seat becomes available. CX will promise a window seat, but we know how promises are kept here, in honor only. Ring any bells?
If the airline is going to expand rapidly, you can go from 55 direct to 60. Does it matter if it develops in 2 year stages?
“In the absence of an agreement, bypass pay will continue, as it is a contractual obligation”. Leave it Status Quo.
If the Senior pilots want to work on lower conditions, well, they will do so, irrelevant of how is affects the COS, they always have. Makes it more difficult for the rest of the pilots at CX.
CX has to take care of the Senior Pilots C&T on extension by offering them and increased housing until 2009. Does not help the junior pilots or pilots reaching the age of 55 beyond 2009.
As said before, CX can hire DEFO’s tomorrow. They just have to pay year 1 F/O passenger wages and benefits. I don’t see a problem with that.
It will be a matter of luck if new hires obtain F/O on the pass or the freighters. CX understands they will never get another application for the freighter if they hire DEFO’s under the current contract. If a new DEFO is hired on pass pay and benefits, they will never receive another application for the freighter, unless the freighter F/O’ are at par with the pass F/O’s , hence the new UNIFIED pay scale for F/O’s, no money in freight you know.
Kick me if I am wrong, but did we not have a unified freighter/passenger pay scale, say.............. about 10 years ago? I must be mistaken.
In my opinion, it is now time for CX to deal with the mess they made 10 years ago. Does anyone need a history lesson?
If the F/O’s have a unified pay scale, then why not the Captains?
“These changes only apply to new crew” and “no-one would have their existing conditions changed against their will”. Basically, a new contract for new joiners and “against their will”, no it comes in the form “sign or be fired”.
As PW is true to forum, he continues to make threats to the crew body. Some things never change.
New S/O’s, join while you can because this rank will be eliminated in the very long term. You will be an S/O for a long time, but at least you have a CX number. It will be some time before a window seat becomes available. CX will promise a window seat, but we know how promises are kept here, in honor only. Ring any bells?
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Over There
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
no bypass while on Cat B status and the rest are uncategorized and you don’t receive bypass pay if you uncategorized. When you are Cat A’d (suitable for command) you usually have a course rather soon; stopping or reducing bypass pay significantly.
Secondly, how many pilots have lost bypass pay because they were either Cat B'd or uncategorized?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: home
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
New Contract
If the AOA fails to convince the pilot group that this is the best deal they can receive, I can ensure you, the one we have waiting is more dissatisfactory.
We will incorporate a whole new COS sent via DHL to your Family, as this is a Family Decision. You will have one month to think about it. If some do not wish to sign, we will terminate their contract. That will be a great motivator for the rest of the pilot group. We may do this with certain pilot groups first, so we can terminate some and the rest will line up.
We know Cathay Pacific is the best job in Asia and only a handful would refuse to sign. Those that don’t sign, we will label them as trouble makers and good luck flying your twin turbine in Papua New Guinea or your old Classic for Air Atlanta. Oh, they went under. Shame really. Good luck joining an Airline in your home country at the bottom of some list. You see, we own you.
We can gauge this by the amount of Senior Pilots wishing to sign on above 55 on lesser conditions. We may be paying too much on B Scales. We will have to look into this.
Housing, medical, pay, rostering, overtime, 13th month, profit share, etc. will all be revamped in the new COS.
From past experience, you must realise that if we what to change your COS, we will just do it. The Pilots will be upset for a year, but with a great propaganda campaign, we will slowly convince the pilot group it is a great deal. Pilots have extremely short memories.
You should listen to the AOA, If you don’t, we will no longer be able to negotiate with the AOA as they will not be representative of the pilot group and send out new contracts via DHL to all individuals. You know what we are capable of.
Cathay Pilots understand they have a good deal. We are paying better that Emirates, Singapore, China Airlines, ANA, and no one wishes to fly with Korean. We are still receiving many letters to join in Hong Kong regardless of the pollution, so we are realising that we don’t have to pay for a premium for Hong Kong.
With these new DEFO’s on a base, Unified pay, we can reduce our costs significantly. When we save that much money, you know who obtains the benefit.
With fuel prices no longer a joke, we will find it hard to pay the 13th month this year. You will only be upset for a year and of course none will leave.
Please give us your feedback, we want to know what you think. Through the feedback, we can correlate what is the minimum you will accept in the new contract. We will add some meaningless benefits and launch a propaganda campaign to make it sound significant and force a new contract on you.
Either you give up bypass pay, allow DEFO’s and new working conditions beyond age 55 or we will do what we have to do.
The Management.
We will incorporate a whole new COS sent via DHL to your Family, as this is a Family Decision. You will have one month to think about it. If some do not wish to sign, we will terminate their contract. That will be a great motivator for the rest of the pilot group. We may do this with certain pilot groups first, so we can terminate some and the rest will line up.
We know Cathay Pacific is the best job in Asia and only a handful would refuse to sign. Those that don’t sign, we will label them as trouble makers and good luck flying your twin turbine in Papua New Guinea or your old Classic for Air Atlanta. Oh, they went under. Shame really. Good luck joining an Airline in your home country at the bottom of some list. You see, we own you.
We can gauge this by the amount of Senior Pilots wishing to sign on above 55 on lesser conditions. We may be paying too much on B Scales. We will have to look into this.
Housing, medical, pay, rostering, overtime, 13th month, profit share, etc. will all be revamped in the new COS.
From past experience, you must realise that if we what to change your COS, we will just do it. The Pilots will be upset for a year, but with a great propaganda campaign, we will slowly convince the pilot group it is a great deal. Pilots have extremely short memories.
You should listen to the AOA, If you don’t, we will no longer be able to negotiate with the AOA as they will not be representative of the pilot group and send out new contracts via DHL to all individuals. You know what we are capable of.
Cathay Pilots understand they have a good deal. We are paying better that Emirates, Singapore, China Airlines, ANA, and no one wishes to fly with Korean. We are still receiving many letters to join in Hong Kong regardless of the pollution, so we are realising that we don’t have to pay for a premium for Hong Kong.
With these new DEFO’s on a base, Unified pay, we can reduce our costs significantly. When we save that much money, you know who obtains the benefit.
With fuel prices no longer a joke, we will find it hard to pay the 13th month this year. You will only be upset for a year and of course none will leave.
Please give us your feedback, we want to know what you think. Through the feedback, we can correlate what is the minimum you will accept in the new contract. We will add some meaningless benefits and launch a propaganda campaign to make it sound significant and force a new contract on you.
Either you give up bypass pay, allow DEFO’s and new working conditions beyond age 55 or we will do what we have to do.
The Management.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: California
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Insane
Currently, a North American Freighter F/O on 4th yr pay has a base salary of $81,000. After 3-6 months at this wage (depending on length of intitial training) is able to transfer to the pax fleet on a North American base with a minimum basic salary of $113,160. An increase in pay of $32,160, not to mention the additional 15.5% of the increase. Under the new unified F/O scale the same First Officer will take a pay decrease to what appears to be $79,000. This is completely insane and unfair! It's below the current freighter scale!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ASL pilots and flight engineers are in no way affected by this
I beg to differ. They will inevitably lose the fixed differential between the ranks if the F/Os 'float' upwards.
Bend over F/Es and prepare to 'accept' the 10 year bat.
I beg to differ. They will inevitably lose the fixed differential between the ranks if the F/Os 'float' upwards.
Bend over F/Es and prepare to 'accept' the 10 year bat.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unified F/O pay scale...
so, in the future, after working 3 yrs as S/O, a newly upgrated F/O whishing to go on a base will now have to work at freighter pay because there was DEFOs hired on the pax fleet?? And it would not be until the 6th year as F/O before the pay scale reaches the current level (not 4 yrs like the text in crew news would lead you to believe)...that's 9 yrs from joining!! And that's not even considering the fact that it might take longer than 3 years for the current S/Os to upgrade with the proposed new conditions.....and they say it's not affecting current crews???
Makes me wonder if I made the right choice, even though I remain optimistic since negociations are still ongoing...
so, in the future, after working 3 yrs as S/O, a newly upgrated F/O whishing to go on a base will now have to work at freighter pay because there was DEFOs hired on the pax fleet?? And it would not be until the 6th year as F/O before the pay scale reaches the current level (not 4 yrs like the text in crew news would lead you to believe)...that's 9 yrs from joining!! And that's not even considering the fact that it might take longer than 3 years for the current S/Os to upgrade with the proposed new conditions.....and they say it's not affecting current crews???
Makes me wonder if I made the right choice, even though I remain optimistic since negociations are still ongoing...