What Are TheFACTS? - Cathay
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Thanks for the info...
Have been looking at the Cathay situation with some interest....
Every time I get close to applying I re-read the "myth conceptions" about Cathay in the general Wannabe forum.
Would anyone care to comment on the current state of play?
It is very tempting indeed to get out there - but if company/HK/China future turns out to be anything but the expected stratospheric rise do you forsee the day where a letter drops through you letterbox from the boss saying
"we have reviewed our nightly allowance/educational allowance/housing allowance (delete as approp.) and effective 01 Apr 0? it is to be halved/discontinued......"
Without the protections we enjoy in the "West" (Europe at least, and for the time being), I don't think that it is outside the realms of possibility that T's & C's could be halved overnight.
On the subject of allowances - are you really given approx $100US per night when you are away? Is there a flying hour rate also?
Where do guys that leave Cathay go? Where do Cathay guys want to go when they complain about their lot in HK?
I know it has been touched on before guys - but do you see the retirement age going up in the near future? What are the demographics like amongst the flight crew community - ie many retirements forecast for the foreseable? In my lot things will stagnate for years and years very soon.......is time to command expected to remain pretty rapid (8-10yrs) from joining? If you join as an SO are you defineatley on the master seniority list, or can you be bypassed?
Look forward to hearing your opinions. Dread the "perform search function" comments.
Cheers
(Spilt off and moved here for responses from CX employees rhather than Wannabes - BE).
Have been looking at the Cathay situation with some interest....
Every time I get close to applying I re-read the "myth conceptions" about Cathay in the general Wannabe forum.
Would anyone care to comment on the current state of play?
It is very tempting indeed to get out there - but if company/HK/China future turns out to be anything but the expected stratospheric rise do you forsee the day where a letter drops through you letterbox from the boss saying
"we have reviewed our nightly allowance/educational allowance/housing allowance (delete as approp.) and effective 01 Apr 0? it is to be halved/discontinued......"
Without the protections we enjoy in the "West" (Europe at least, and for the time being), I don't think that it is outside the realms of possibility that T's & C's could be halved overnight.
On the subject of allowances - are you really given approx $100US per night when you are away? Is there a flying hour rate also?
Where do guys that leave Cathay go? Where do Cathay guys want to go when they complain about their lot in HK?
I know it has been touched on before guys - but do you see the retirement age going up in the near future? What are the demographics like amongst the flight crew community - ie many retirements forecast for the foreseable? In my lot things will stagnate for years and years very soon.......is time to command expected to remain pretty rapid (8-10yrs) from joining? If you join as an SO are you defineatley on the master seniority list, or can you be bypassed?
Look forward to hearing your opinions. Dread the "perform search function" comments.
Cheers
(Spilt off and moved here for responses from CX employees rhather than Wannabes - BE).
Last edited by BlueEagle; 29th Oct 2004 at 04:28.
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odds are that the fact you are umming and ahhing about applying will come through in an interview making the discussion academic...im afraid to say.
But in my opinion, CX is prob one of the best companys out there at the moment to work for, you sayCX managment could come and slash this or that, but take a step back and look at what is actually happening in the world, it is the US carriers that are doing all the slashing ...pension plans to name one thing, and those airlines have near to 100% ALPA membership and all the legal protections for the workforce. Look at the track record of CX in its financial position, even with SARs they posted profits come year end, and we all got 13th month, well three weeks of it anyway.
As stated above very few CX people leave to fly other widebodies, either they move to more domestic jobs or are forced due to 55 retirment. Im only new but dont know anyone whom has left.
Promotion times are up in the top level as well, you could prob forget about commands in any of the US majors for a very very long time, BA as well. Yes EK is probably a lot quicker but the package isnt as good. LCC carriers offer quick commands but judging from the amount of pm's im getting from those pilots all is not well in their camps.
Best of luck in deciding whether to apply or not, my 2 cents worth are that CX want people 100% keen not half hearted.
But in my opinion, CX is prob one of the best companys out there at the moment to work for, you sayCX managment could come and slash this or that, but take a step back and look at what is actually happening in the world, it is the US carriers that are doing all the slashing ...pension plans to name one thing, and those airlines have near to 100% ALPA membership and all the legal protections for the workforce. Look at the track record of CX in its financial position, even with SARs they posted profits come year end, and we all got 13th month, well three weeks of it anyway.
As stated above very few CX people leave to fly other widebodies, either they move to more domestic jobs or are forced due to 55 retirment. Im only new but dont know anyone whom has left.
Promotion times are up in the top level as well, you could prob forget about commands in any of the US majors for a very very long time, BA as well. Yes EK is probably a lot quicker but the package isnt as good. LCC carriers offer quick commands but judging from the amount of pm's im getting from those pilots all is not well in their camps.
Best of luck in deciding whether to apply or not, my 2 cents worth are that CX want people 100% keen not half hearted.
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Well put Kiwi. Any hesitation in your desire to work at CX will definetely show during their selection process.
Mysector, in my short career in aviation I have learned that every move in aviation is a gamble. Just about everything I have predicted would happen, the opposite did. Almost all of my friends in flying jobs have been furloughed. I have been lucky, although sometimes I don't realize it, to hold on to my job.
We all make the best decisions with the information we have at the time. If we had a way to predict the future then we would make really great choices, but they would probably seem foolish to others at the time we make them.
Who knows, maybe you are making the right choice by not applying to CX. The best advise I can give you is to not apply until you are 100% sure that it is what you want.
Mysector, in my short career in aviation I have learned that every move in aviation is a gamble. Just about everything I have predicted would happen, the opposite did. Almost all of my friends in flying jobs have been furloughed. I have been lucky, although sometimes I don't realize it, to hold on to my job.
We all make the best decisions with the information we have at the time. If we had a way to predict the future then we would make really great choices, but they would probably seem foolish to others at the time we make them.
Who knows, maybe you are making the right choice by not applying to CX. The best advise I can give you is to not apply until you are 100% sure that it is what you want.
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I have been in CX for 8+ years now with Command inevitable and I can honestly say in the 8+ years I have been here maybe 3 people I have known have left. When they have gone they have all gone back home because it was merely homesick reasons and nothing to do with CX as a whole.
Yes maybe there is cause for concern with China but hey look at every other ariline in the world they also have their problems too. I myself dont think there will be much change in the future. CX is running far to smoothly why upset things when the company bears such fruit?
The allowances do vary considerably, maybe just $20 USD a night in Bangkok (more than enough beer money) to approx $190 USD if you go to London. An average figure of $100 is a good estimation. Yes as said already we do get an hourly duty pay which is paid at the end of the month and for an FO it equates to an extra $300 USD pr mth.
Basings are the best thing that ever happened in Cathay and although there is a pay cut and no housing if you go on a base most of the guys who go love being back home. I know an FO based in London who had 11 days off a HKG (then 10 days off another HKG then the rest of the month off. This is by no means a rare occurence to him. In general he averages 5-7 days after each flight and they are usually just min stay HKG's. In my view there is still no better job in the entire world than an FO based in London on the 400 with CX.
However the flip side to the coin is that guys settle on a base with wife kids etc. only to be dragged back out to HKG to do a command on the Airbus/777. They then have to wait for seniority to get back on their base. This is the only thing that can cause problems!
Hope some of your questions where answered - In my view CX is a fantastic place to work and you get many many options when you join
Yes maybe there is cause for concern with China but hey look at every other ariline in the world they also have their problems too. I myself dont think there will be much change in the future. CX is running far to smoothly why upset things when the company bears such fruit?
The allowances do vary considerably, maybe just $20 USD a night in Bangkok (more than enough beer money) to approx $190 USD if you go to London. An average figure of $100 is a good estimation. Yes as said already we do get an hourly duty pay which is paid at the end of the month and for an FO it equates to an extra $300 USD pr mth.
Basings are the best thing that ever happened in Cathay and although there is a pay cut and no housing if you go on a base most of the guys who go love being back home. I know an FO based in London who had 11 days off a HKG (then 10 days off another HKG then the rest of the month off. This is by no means a rare occurence to him. In general he averages 5-7 days after each flight and they are usually just min stay HKG's. In my view there is still no better job in the entire world than an FO based in London on the 400 with CX.
However the flip side to the coin is that guys settle on a base with wife kids etc. only to be dragged back out to HKG to do a command on the Airbus/777. They then have to wait for seniority to get back on their base. This is the only thing that can cause problems!
Hope some of your questions where answered - In my view CX is a fantastic place to work and you get many many options when you join
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Freighter Options
As Shamen said, there are many options within Cathay and Silberfuchs earlier on alluded to one of them when he mentioned a couple of new captains on the freighter fleet. I assume that these guys took that route to maintain the basing they had as Cargo are not Cathay based. (Again please correct me if I'm wrong).
By opting to stay in the freight side have they foregone the option to transfer to pax later at Hong Kong? Silberfuchs also mentioned the seniority number that cannot be bypassed. Will these guys be able to take a Pax command when their number rises far enough up the pile or does that number only apply when you get to mainline?
Some of this was raised by another PPruner back in November but he never got an answer. (Sorry I don't know how to do the fancy linking stuff to his thread) Could anyone help this time please.
Many thanks.
Blakey. (Edited for typo)
By opting to stay in the freight side have they foregone the option to transfer to pax later at Hong Kong? Silberfuchs also mentioned the seniority number that cannot be bypassed. Will these guys be able to take a Pax command when their number rises far enough up the pile or does that number only apply when you get to mainline?
Some of this was raised by another PPruner back in November but he never got an answer. (Sorry I don't know how to do the fancy linking stuff to his thread) Could anyone help this time please.
Many thanks.
Blakey. (Edited for typo)
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The option to go for a command on the freighter does not then prevent you from going back onto the pax fleet at a later date. You have a CX seniority number, and when your seniority allows you to be eligible for command then you can bid for it. The reason that the freighter commands can go to quite junior people is varied. For a start, the freighter command will be on a base and in the case of a US base, there aren't alot of people in CX who can live in the US or Canada. Therefore, the pool of people you are potentially competeing with for that command slot are alot less than if you are just wanting to take up your earliest command slot in HKG. Secondly, the pay scale is less than that of a B scale pax captain (although it has improved a little recently). Thirdly, you are then tied to flying the freighter only for 3 years (min). Now for those who are bidding for and then successful on their command course having only been in the company for 3 or so years, due to their relative seniority, they will have to end up staying on the freighter for probably in the order of 5-6 years before being able to bid back onto a pax command slot. Ifthis doesn't worry you or whatever, then go for it. The freighter roster isn't great so being tied to that for 6 years may be something that stops some from bidding for it. I think for some, there is still a stigma attached to being a "freighter" pilot only due to how the freight thing was set up with ASL years ago. Still for others, they may not even be aware of the possibility of bidding for a freighter slot. etc etc etc.
What some may not be aware of is that once you are in the company as an SO, there is nothing stopping you from bidding for a freighter FO vacancy on a base. eg. you are a Canuck who joined as an SO living a based in HKG. You are thinking that the earliest you will be able to be on a base is probably 5 or so years away due to your time as an SO then JFO etc. before finally being able to get on the 400 or CCQ'd on the Bus and able to take up a base. Well, a notice may come out seeking any interested pilots to take up a freighter base in LAX as an FO. There is nothing stopping you as an SO putting a bid in for that slot. If successful, you'll then do your training onto the 400 as an FO and take up the base. After your 3 years or so on the freighter, you'll more than likely be able to bid straight onto a pax 400 base in the US. Now, when you start thinking about command, if moving to HKG for your command on the pax fleet via the 777 or 330 isn't what you'd like, then obviously bidding for that freighter command on a base will be your option again.
Hopefully this explains a bit about how upgrades can work. One note I need to make in all this is that you don't just get a command course automatically. You can bid for it but then there is a bit of a selection process that goes on as your file is looked over etc. There are plenty of guys who have been Cat B'd (ie. not suitable for command at the moment....we'll check up on you in a year or so to see how things are going)
What some may not be aware of is that once you are in the company as an SO, there is nothing stopping you from bidding for a freighter FO vacancy on a base. eg. you are a Canuck who joined as an SO living a based in HKG. You are thinking that the earliest you will be able to be on a base is probably 5 or so years away due to your time as an SO then JFO etc. before finally being able to get on the 400 or CCQ'd on the Bus and able to take up a base. Well, a notice may come out seeking any interested pilots to take up a freighter base in LAX as an FO. There is nothing stopping you as an SO putting a bid in for that slot. If successful, you'll then do your training onto the 400 as an FO and take up the base. After your 3 years or so on the freighter, you'll more than likely be able to bid straight onto a pax 400 base in the US. Now, when you start thinking about command, if moving to HKG for your command on the pax fleet via the 777 or 330 isn't what you'd like, then obviously bidding for that freighter command on a base will be your option again.
Hopefully this explains a bit about how upgrades can work. One note I need to make in all this is that you don't just get a command course automatically. You can bid for it but then there is a bit of a selection process that goes on as your file is looked over etc. There are plenty of guys who have been Cat B'd (ie. not suitable for command at the moment....we'll check up on you in a year or so to see how things are going)
