FI jobs next season
Thread Starter
FI jobs next season
I have tonight been talking to the owner of a FTO who informs me that next season he will not be looking to pay FI's for their work.
The deal will be a £10 a day retainer for showing up. Any 'work' beyond that will be gratis.
Its 1991 all over again folks. I hope this does not happen. Half of me thinks he is being a git but the other half agrees WHY should he if he doesn't have to.
He accepts he will have to pay current rates to those with higher quals such as the CFI, IMC FI's and FCR trained FI's.
WWW
The deal will be a £10 a day retainer for showing up. Any 'work' beyond that will be gratis.
Its 1991 all over again folks. I hope this does not happen. Half of me thinks he is being a git but the other half agrees WHY should he if he doesn't have to.
He accepts he will have to pay current rates to those with higher quals such as the CFI, IMC FI's and FCR trained FI's.
WWW
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WWW,
Tell me, who is going to work a 40 hour week with no pay?? Are there actually people who work full time at these FTOs as FI for nothing? How can they do this, if that is indeed the case. Everyone has living expenses and not to mention debts, especially in the aviation world which need paying off.
[ 06 October 2001: Message edited by: SuperTed ]
Tell me, who is going to work a 40 hour week with no pay?? Are there actually people who work full time at these FTOs as FI for nothing? How can they do this, if that is indeed the case. Everyone has living expenses and not to mention debts, especially in the aviation world which need paying off.
[ 06 October 2001: Message edited by: SuperTed ]
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This post from www has made me mad.
Since Sept 11 WWW has done nothing but post negativity as soon as he hears something detrimental with respect to pilot job prospects. Some of the figures he has printed have been way over the top and the doom and gloom that he posts is very speculative and unrepresentative of the industry as I and many others view it. I am not a Go 737 pilot but I do have close friends in many UK airlines working as pilots and in other jobs too. Also I have many friends working as instructors and also have good relationships with a couple of flying school owners. The message I get from everyone is there are jobs out there and things are not as bad as you may think. None of the flying schools I use have had drops in bookings or noticed any down tern in trade what so ever. Yes I know about the cadet sponsorships that have been cancelled or put on hold.. Does WWW not realise we are in a position of uncertainty at the moment and until we KNOW what is happening we should not cast out silly rumours that may damage peoples motivation and aspirations. I am training for my JAR CPL and I am on the home run now, I have two FI job offers already just by getting out there and getting to know people.
When it gets to the point when we KNOW there are going to be very few jobs and we KNOW it will be as bad as after the Gulf war then WWW can get on his soapbox.
WWW I do appreciate everything you do for this site (apart from the above).
Since Sept 11 WWW has done nothing but post negativity as soon as he hears something detrimental with respect to pilot job prospects. Some of the figures he has printed have been way over the top and the doom and gloom that he posts is very speculative and unrepresentative of the industry as I and many others view it. I am not a Go 737 pilot but I do have close friends in many UK airlines working as pilots and in other jobs too. Also I have many friends working as instructors and also have good relationships with a couple of flying school owners. The message I get from everyone is there are jobs out there and things are not as bad as you may think. None of the flying schools I use have had drops in bookings or noticed any down tern in trade what so ever. Yes I know about the cadet sponsorships that have been cancelled or put on hold.. Does WWW not realise we are in a position of uncertainty at the moment and until we KNOW what is happening we should not cast out silly rumours that may damage peoples motivation and aspirations. I am training for my JAR CPL and I am on the home run now, I have two FI job offers already just by getting out there and getting to know people.
When it gets to the point when we KNOW there are going to be very few jobs and we KNOW it will be as bad as after the Gulf war then WWW can get on his soapbox.
WWW I do appreciate everything you do for this site (apart from the above).
Thread Starter
just back from pub. standby for photon torpedos in the morn....
WWW
WWW
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But if everyone sticks two fingers up to this FTO then he will have to stump up some wages.Who is going to work full time for nothing?How would you eat.You cannot claim of the state as you are not available for work.
Next we will have 737 operators offering FO positions for £10/day retainers and no pay.
Next we will have 737 operators offering FO positions for £10/day retainers and no pay.
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not so long ago to instruct to ppl standard required only a ppl,the requiste hours and of course an fi rating. the finicial rewards
being limited to the equivalent of www's retainer. wages are directly proportional to supply and demand, and should there be more fi's than fi postions then it's a possibilty, especialy if the fto passes on the saving to attract more custom through cheaper lessons.
as for 737 operators offering retainers for fo's; check out any old copies of flight int'
when times have been bad and count how many
"fly for food" adverts there are in the sit's wanted column, and the're not refering to fi positions.
we're a disparate bunch in the best of times, in the worst we invairably become desparate.
being limited to the equivalent of www's retainer. wages are directly proportional to supply and demand, and should there be more fi's than fi postions then it's a possibilty, especialy if the fto passes on the saving to attract more custom through cheaper lessons.
as for 737 operators offering retainers for fo's; check out any old copies of flight int'
when times have been bad and count how many
"fly for food" adverts there are in the sit's wanted column, and the're not refering to fi positions.
we're a disparate bunch in the best of times, in the worst we invairably become desparate.
A while ago, I posted a question about my instructing for free. I decided against it in the end for the reason that some people make their living from this and we have all spent a lot of money to be there.
Personally I think the flying schools who do employ people on a retainer such as has been rumoured above, are basically a bunch of c**ts.
You do now need the commercial exams passed before being an FI so this is more expense. Anyone agreeing to a retainer and nothing else is also a c**t, ruining the very industry they've tried hard to get into.
Hopefully WWW is winding people up.
Rant complete!!
Personally I think the flying schools who do employ people on a retainer such as has been rumoured above, are basically a bunch of c**ts.
You do now need the commercial exams passed before being an FI so this is more expense. Anyone agreeing to a retainer and nothing else is also a c**t, ruining the very industry they've tried hard to get into.
Hopefully WWW is winding people up.
Rant complete!!
Thread Starter
This post from www has made me mad.
Since Sept 11 WWW has done nothing but post negativity as soon as he hears something detrimental with respect to pilot job prospects. Some of the figures he has printed have been way over the top and the doom and gloom that he posts is very speculative and unrepresentative of the industry as I and many others view it. I am not a Go 737 pilot but I do have close friends in many UK airlines working as pilots and in other jobs too. Also I have many friends working as instructors and also have good relationships with a couple of flying school owners. The message I get from everyone is there are jobs out there and things are not as bad as you may think. None of the flying schools I use have had drops in bookings or noticed any down tern in trade what so ever. Yes I know about the cadet sponsorships that have been cancelled or put on hold.. Does WWW not realise we are in a position of uncertainty at the moment and until we KNOW what is happening we should not cast out silly rumours that may damage peoples motivation and aspirations. I am training for my JAR CPL and I am on the home run now, I have two FI job offers already just by getting out there and getting to know people.
When it gets to the point when we KNOW there are going to be very few jobs and we KNOW it will be as bad as after the Gulf war then WWW can get on his soapbox.
WWW I do appreciate everything you do for this site (apart from the above).
Since Sept 11 WWW has done nothing but post negativity as soon as he hears something detrimental with respect to pilot job prospects. Some of the figures he has printed have been way over the top and the doom and gloom that he posts is very speculative and unrepresentative of the industry as I and many others view it. I am not a Go 737 pilot but I do have close friends in many UK airlines working as pilots and in other jobs too. Also I have many friends working as instructors and also have good relationships with a couple of flying school owners. The message I get from everyone is there are jobs out there and things are not as bad as you may think. None of the flying schools I use have had drops in bookings or noticed any down tern in trade what so ever. Yes I know about the cadet sponsorships that have been cancelled or put on hold.. Does WWW not realise we are in a position of uncertainty at the moment and until we KNOW what is happening we should not cast out silly rumours that may damage peoples motivation and aspirations. I am training for my JAR CPL and I am on the home run now, I have two FI job offers already just by getting out there and getting to know people.
When it gets to the point when we KNOW there are going to be very few jobs and we KNOW it will be as bad as after the Gulf war then WWW can get on his soapbox.
WWW I do appreciate everything you do for this site (apart from the above).
Of the figures I have used that have been "way over the top" would you care to use specific examples..? As for your close friends not seeing a slow down in GA well thats fine and dandy - neither has the fto owner to whom I refer seen a slowdown yet. There might not be a GA slowdown. WHAT THERE WILL BE is about 1,100 people with CPL/IR's chasing every job come next spring. Which means that at least 30% will do, or hold, FI ratings which means that Mr FTO owner will be oversubscribed by 100% for every job.
That is his view as of last night. As now past on to you guys. For what thats worth.
Oh and its not someone for whom I have ever worked in case people are wondering.
200V - as for KNOWING that its as bad as the Gulf War and that there are very few jobs - well it is and there are. Yep things will pick up in a year or two. Just like the Gulf War. Yep the underlying conditions are good for recovery. But look at the facts. I would be being irresponsible if I did not spell out quiet clearly the pertinent conditions of the Wannabe marketplace. Its what I have always done here. Its just that for the last few weeks - and for the 1st time since PPRuNe came into being - those conditions have been negative.
What motivation do I have to paint things in too bleak a colour I ask you?
Anyhows.
To those that do not remember - following the Gulf War slowdown FI's on PPL work with little experience were generally paid nothing at all. Many were "on the list" at several schools whereby they would get a call if work was available that day. Like being on permanent standby. They would make no charge for their work in exchange for hours and currency. Some of the more enlightened FTO's paid £5 for turning up for the day if called. There were lots of regional variations depending on circumstance. Flight International carried at least a double page of Jobs Wanted ads by type rated jet Captains.
Its supply and demand pure and simple. The UK already has enough flying instructors. The UK will not have any jobs for those FI's higher up the food chain for the next 12 months. Of the hundreds and hundred of low time CPL/IR's out there several hundred will do FI ratings. There will be a glut of FI's. Wages will fall. FTO owners know this. FTO owners talk to me. I pass it on to you. DON'T shoot the messenger.
I hope it does not happen as much as you. I have several good chums working as Flying Instructors - remember I was one until Feb this year...
Cheers,
WWW
[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]
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WWW,
Answer me this then. Many people would 'work for food' but what about practical constraints such as bringing in a wage and after all eating, not to mention paying off costly debts. Also how many wives would stand by guys who disappear for 40 hours a week and bring nothing into the home, especially if they also have young kids. How many guys do this?? Surely such educated people as we are, wouldn't it make more sense to find a good 9 to 5 job and spend that money on flying plus giving the wife a little too??
Answer me this then. Many people would 'work for food' but what about practical constraints such as bringing in a wage and after all eating, not to mention paying off costly debts. Also how many wives would stand by guys who disappear for 40 hours a week and bring nothing into the home, especially if they also have young kids. How many guys do this?? Surely such educated people as we are, wouldn't it make more sense to find a good 9 to 5 job and spend that money on flying plus giving the wife a little too??
Thread Starter
There are plenty of people who can for various reasons work for free. Example: I have a friend with wealthy parents who own a garage. They paid for his OATS training and will do so for an FI ticket if necessary. He lives within 30 mins of 2 flying schools.
With no debt he will work in the family business pumping gas. If the phone rings he will toddle off to the airfield and do some flying and then return to the family business.
Its not much of a living but he will get by. His hours will be increasing and his flying will retain some modicum of recency.
He is willing to do this in order to position himself for the upturn. As I have advised him to do.
No amount of imploring people to stick to a standard and not work for free will work. It never has. Its infuriating that people will do this.
However, I have advised my friend to follow this route becuase I know that if he does not then he is shooting himself in the foot long term. And he is a friend and it is important I help him.
Its a tough world.
WWW
With no debt he will work in the family business pumping gas. If the phone rings he will toddle off to the airfield and do some flying and then return to the family business.
Its not much of a living but he will get by. His hours will be increasing and his flying will retain some modicum of recency.
He is willing to do this in order to position himself for the upturn. As I have advised him to do.
No amount of imploring people to stick to a standard and not work for free will work. It never has. Its infuriating that people will do this.
However, I have advised my friend to follow this route becuase I know that if he does not then he is shooting himself in the foot long term. And he is a friend and it is important I help him.
Its a tough world.
WWW
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Thats true, I see the point. Although I'm sure this guy is in the minority. Many people I have met have debts, living either with a wife or girlfriend and some have children. It also depends I think on where in the country you intend to work as a FI. Some areas have higher living costs than others etc.
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It is quite obvious what WWW's game is here, throughout this once useful bulletin board...he is so scared about his job that he wants to reduce the number of pilots coming on to the market. The more wannabes he can persuade not to start training or to give up, the better are his chances to get another job if GO do what there name suggests.
I don't wish this on Go or indeed the welshian him/her/itself but it does seem to be the objective behind all of these monotonous posts.
If I were a PPrune advertiser I would object to the destructive voice talking down the industry especially as the voice has more priveliges than most on this board
Do they wear turbans in Wales?
Hotwings, you are right out of order. WWW spend shis free time dispensing advice to ingrates like you because he feels it will help arm you for the hard times to come. The suggestion that he is trying to protect his position should things turn down at Go is beneath contempt - and if I were him, I'd have a lawyer's letter at your door today. Finally, your last paragraph is so incredibly insulting to so many people, I cannot believe your insensitivity. You, sonny, start apologising, before I ban you from this board.
Scroggs
[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: Scroggs ]
I don't wish this on Go or indeed the welshian him/her/itself but it does seem to be the objective behind all of these monotonous posts.
If I were a PPrune advertiser I would object to the destructive voice talking down the industry especially as the voice has more priveliges than most on this board
Do they wear turbans in Wales?
Hotwings, you are right out of order. WWW spend shis free time dispensing advice to ingrates like you because he feels it will help arm you for the hard times to come. The suggestion that he is trying to protect his position should things turn down at Go is beneath contempt - and if I were him, I'd have a lawyer's letter at your door today. Finally, your last paragraph is so incredibly insulting to so many people, I cannot believe your insensitivity. You, sonny, start apologising, before I ban you from this board.Scroggs
[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: Scroggs ]
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WWW, too often immaturity and ugly tones of shadenfreude come through in your musings. The point people are making is that you a saying what doesn't need to be said. If FTO owners believe that this is what wannabes will put up with, then your twaddle will become a self fulfilling prophecy.
Thread Starter
hotwings - you Sir are a complete Arse.
Working in the low cost sector with a good few FO's below me on the seniority list I am not too worried. Not complacent but not worried.
Even if I were would it really matter to me if there are an extra couple of hundred people out there with 200hrs...? Last time I counted I had over 2000hrs a JAA ATPL and over 500 Boeing hours. Which is not much in the big scheme of things but it isn't 200hr Boy Wonders that worry me come job application time is it?
I'm advising delaying costly training for a relativelyu short time period. Nothing more.
Why?
Because its what I would do if I were back in that position again.
Simple. So wind your neck in with regards to the ulterior motive nonsense and let me and the PPRuNe management team worry about the advertisers.
WWW
Working in the low cost sector with a good few FO's below me on the seniority list I am not too worried. Not complacent but not worried.
Even if I were would it really matter to me if there are an extra couple of hundred people out there with 200hrs...? Last time I counted I had over 2000hrs a JAA ATPL and over 500 Boeing hours. Which is not much in the big scheme of things but it isn't 200hr Boy Wonders that worry me come job application time is it?
I'm advising delaying costly training for a relativelyu short time period. Nothing more.
Why?
Because its what I would do if I were back in that position again.
Simple. So wind your neck in with regards to the ulterior motive nonsense and let me and the PPRuNe management team worry about the advertisers.
WWW
Thread Starter
Sick. What I am saying does need saying IF I am addressing Wannabes with very little knowledge of the aviation market. Which I am.
I am also addressing people who perhaps like yourself do understand the curent conditions. To whom my 'musings' might well be unwanted. In which case you will probably ignore me and follow your own judgement.
I am unwilling to throw the baby out with the bath water though and make all my postings full of IF's and BUT's.
If you refute what I post then rather than whine on at me about it why don't you spend a little time and post your own opinion/assessment of the situation that refutes mine?
That way all Wannabes benefit from gaining a read of a well argued debate <spot my policy here, nudge nudge>.
If I wanted to I could easily be a whole lot more negative with some justification...
Why would I have enojoy shadenfreude when it is my fellow PPRuNe Moderator who is contemplating redundancy alongside my best mate from University, my Aunt, at least 4 ex-students of mine and several close friends?
I'd have to be a heartless man for that.
As for immature - please ellaborate, or, just stop throwing random insults.
WWW
I am also addressing people who perhaps like yourself do understand the curent conditions. To whom my 'musings' might well be unwanted. In which case you will probably ignore me and follow your own judgement.
I am unwilling to throw the baby out with the bath water though and make all my postings full of IF's and BUT's.
If you refute what I post then rather than whine on at me about it why don't you spend a little time and post your own opinion/assessment of the situation that refutes mine?
That way all Wannabes benefit from gaining a read of a well argued debate <spot my policy here, nudge nudge>.
If I wanted to I could easily be a whole lot more negative with some justification...
Why would I have enojoy shadenfreude when it is my fellow PPRuNe Moderator who is contemplating redundancy alongside my best mate from University, my Aunt, at least 4 ex-students of mine and several close friends?
I'd have to be a heartless man for that.
As for immature - please ellaborate, or, just stop throwing random insults.
WWW
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WWW,
Do you derive some kind of perverse pleasure from your constant gloom and doom mongering?
We all know the score regarding the present situation.Have some consideration for those who have lost or are about to lose their jobs and indeed the wannabes. They don't need reminding every time they log on this site.Give it a rest.
Do you derive some kind of perverse pleasure from your constant gloom and doom mongering?
We all know the score regarding the present situation.Have some consideration for those who have lost or are about to lose their jobs and indeed the wannabes. They don't need reminding every time they log on this site.Give it a rest.
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Have people suddenly become stupid in the wake of what has recently happened? I can’t believe what I’m reading. WWW is offering nothing but GOOD SOUND advice. He, perhaps more than most of the readers, contributors etc on this site, is more qualified, and ‘in the know’ to pass his opinion and more importantly state the facts (which is what he is doing). If you choose to ignore them, then fine, but I don’t think you can blame him for advising people on the current situation (and for God’s sake lets face it, impending doom) of pilot training. If you have a problem with what he says, then fine, ignore it. I cannot believe the likes of EPRman and hotwings have suggested what they have (personal gain and perverse pleasure). What a pair of morons.
WWW, I wouldn’t waste my time even in responding to these posts. They are a minority, and an insignificant one at that. Perhaps 90 – 95% of the readers of the Wannabes forum not only are aware of the dire situation, but also agree with your (valuable) opinions. Unlike them, we appreciate the work you do for Pprune & al wannabes (I’m sure I speak for many of the readers).
I don’t mean to sound all "sucky sucky" or pro "what-ever-WWW-says", but he has in the past offered nothing but sound logical advice. It seems when things are all peachy you’re happy to listen, when the **** hits the fan you have a go. VERY foolish and naïve.
WWW, I wouldn’t waste my time even in responding to these posts. They are a minority, and an insignificant one at that. Perhaps 90 – 95% of the readers of the Wannabes forum not only are aware of the dire situation, but also agree with your (valuable) opinions. Unlike them, we appreciate the work you do for Pprune & al wannabes (I’m sure I speak for many of the readers).
I don’t mean to sound all "sucky sucky" or pro "what-ever-WWW-says", but he has in the past offered nothing but sound logical advice. It seems when things are all peachy you’re happy to listen, when the **** hits the fan you have a go. VERY foolish and naïve.
Thread Starter
Winkiepinkie - thanks for that, I've a thick skin but even I get a little stressed by the kicking some people want to give me.
For all those of the opinion that I should desist. I hear your points and can see your argument. I really can.
But it is my rational and calculated decision to take the stance that I have. I think its what I would have wanted were I still in a desk job/education and thinking about becoming a pilot for a living. I'd want someone to point out the realities and if he were a slight pessimist that would probably be a good thing e.g. a few knots on final, a bit of fuel for Mum.
I'll be the first to bang the recruitment drum when the time comes - as it surely will.
Input is always welcome. Please also bear in mind that it is the Moderators role to provoke discussion. I - unlike most - don't use a pseudonym for this purpose which is perhaps one reason why I might seem to stick my oar in quite a lot.
Cheers,
WWW
For all those of the opinion that I should desist. I hear your points and can see your argument. I really can.
But it is my rational and calculated decision to take the stance that I have. I think its what I would have wanted were I still in a desk job/education and thinking about becoming a pilot for a living. I'd want someone to point out the realities and if he were a slight pessimist that would probably be a good thing e.g. a few knots on final, a bit of fuel for Mum.
I'll be the first to bang the recruitment drum when the time comes - as it surely will.
Input is always welcome. Please also bear in mind that it is the Moderators role to provoke discussion. I - unlike most - don't use a pseudonym for this purpose which is perhaps one reason why I might seem to stick my oar in quite a lot.
Cheers,
WWW